Humankind Game by Amplitude

[FinalDoomsday]

@Boris Gudenuf I agree the mercenary soldiers are emblematic of Carthage at war but the two problems that come to mind with using 'Numidian Cavalry', 'Celtiberian Warrior' or any other mercenary is first there is a possibility those cultures might turn up themselves when Carthage has already pinched their most iconic soldier although I'll admit I'd be pleasantly surprised if Numidia turned up at some point.

Second there might already be a mercenary system in the game, Endless Legend and Endless Space 2 both had mercenary systems as I'm sure you know from playing Roving Clans. If this is the case it might be a little awkward and confusing if Carthage had a mercenary unit that is not considered a mercenary by the game rules. However if there is a mercenary system its entirely possible you will be able to play as Carthage in an accurate manner spending vast sums of money (which as a merchant civ they should be good at) to raise a large army of assorted mercenaries.

It would be very cool if other civs emblematic units could turn up as mercenaries or unique units that only turn up as mercenaries.

I also agree that more accurate emblematic units and districts would be better but I'm pretty much resigned to Vikings getting a Berserker unit... (Can we blame Age Of Empires 2 for a lot of this?)

 

[ehecatzin]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Cothon gave Carthage discounts to mercenary units along with whatever bonus to ships or trade it has. if you go Phoencia - Carthage you should be generating a lot of Gold to sustain a large military....sort of like the Broken lords.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

@Boris Gudenuf I agree the mercenary soldiers are emblematic of Carthage at war but the two problems that come to mind with using 'Numidian Cavalry', 'Celtiberian Warrior' or any other mercenary is first there is a possibility those cultures might turn up themselves when Carthage has already pinched their most iconic soldier although I'll admit I'd be pleasantly surprised if Numidia turned up at some point.

Second there might already be a mercenary system in the game, Endless Legend and Endless Space 2 both had mercenary systems as I'm sure you know from playing Roving Clans. If this is the case it might be a little awkward and confusing if Carthage had a mercenary unit that is not considered a mercenary by the game rules. However if there is a mercenary system its entirely possible you will be able to play as Carthage in an accurate manner spending vast sums of money (which as a merchant civ they should be good at) to raise a large army of assorted mercenaries.

It would be very cool if other civs emblematic units could turn up as mercenaries or unique units that only turn up as mercenaries.

I also agree that more accurate emblematic units and districts would be better but I'm pretty much resigned to Vikings getting a Berserker unit... (Can we blame Age Of Empires 2 for a lot of this?)

Absolutely agree that there should be a Mercenary System in the game, because Hiring From Without was too important to too many military systems in history, not least Roman, Chinese, Greek, and almost all the states of the 17th and 18th centuries in Europe! Famously, it was said then that each Mercenary was actually worth Three Men: one new soldier for you, one less soldier that could be hired by your enemy, and one more civilian of yours who could stay home, work, and pay taxes to support the mercenaries.

Within the context of a good, workable Mercenary Mechanic, Carthage could find it easier to hire mercenaries, could (possibly) hire troop-types from both major and minor Factions (apparently, the City States or Barbarians of Humankind, or maybe both in some form) or be the only Faction that can hire Emblematic Units. Lots of possibilities.

"Purely" Mercenary Units, or units which as Mercenaries get a slightly different effect, would also be absolutely worthwhile.
For example, Friedrich of Prussia couldn't trust his soldiers without tight supervision (desertion was endemic in the Prussian Army) so all Pillaging and Foraging for Food from the countryside was done by mercenary light troops or cavalry.
The Hypaspists, medium infantry under Alexander, became a mercenary unit under the Successor States called the Argyaspides or "Sliver Shields" who were an elite pike phalanx.

Again, lots of possibilities to add flavor to the game.

I'm not sure that we could blame Berserkers on any particular game. They have fascinated pseudo-historians forever, in books, movies, and all kinds of popular entertainment. Simply effective and dangerous troops don't get the publicity that Crazed Nutters chewing on their beards get.

Bernard Cornwell's "Saxon Stories" are a much better depiction of Viking and in general, "Dark Age" warfare in England/Britain, and if you can find a copy, Frans G. Bengtsson's Red Orm (also released as The Long Ships) is a novel that catches the very thought processes of the Viking World beautifully - Bengtsson was a Swedish historian and military historian who brought a mass of accurate background to his only novel.

 

[shaglio]

I'm not sure that we could blame Berserkers on any particular game. They have fascinated pseudo-historians forever, in books, movies, and all kinds of popular entertainment. Simply effective and dangerous troops don't get the publicity that Crazed Nutters chewing on their beards get.

Bernard Cornwell's "Saxon Stories" are a much better depiction of Viking and in general, "Dark Age" warfare in England/Britain, and if you can find a copy, Frans G. Bengtsson's Red Orm (also released as The Long Ships) is a novel that catches the very thought processes of the Viking World beautifully - Bengtsson was a Swedish historian and military historian who brought a mass of accurate background to his only novel.

I'm sure Eater's of the Dead/The 13th Warrior isn't even remotely accurate. But I certainly enjoyed the book & movie.

 

[Ziad]

Aw yeah Carthaginians!

I'm ready for my naval empire.

 

[Siptah]

We could also consider them focusing on a specific tribe that would allow them to further expand them down the road as opposed to just using Celts as an all encompassing term.

-Helveti
-Iceni (I think this could be another option moar war carts)
-Nervii
-Veneti (not gonna lie I'd love it just for the Asterix vibes.)

Hm... I think specific tribes are a bit unlikely as they are so specific and not a culture by themselves, right?

Gauls, (Celt-)Iberians, Germanic People, I could have seen that. Nervii or Helveti? Seems to narrow, and we might not even see Belgium or Switzerland later on.

Maybe there is no inner-European Iron Age civ besides the Goths. Together with Rome and Greece, it makes the Classic Era European enough already. Wrong thread to speculate anyway ;-)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Let's see, how to smuggle 'Celts' into an alphabetic Faction List for the Classical Era of Humankind, when they seem to have already skipped past both Celts and Gauls as Faction Titles.

1. The center of the Celtic cultural realm in Europe was the Halstatt Culture of 800 - 450 BCE (approximately): Call them the Halstatt Culture, which would confuse the H**l out of most gamers but actually be as accurate as any other title for them.
2. Halstatt was followed by the La Tene Culture (450 BCE to Roman Contact), one center of which was around Paris, so La Tene Culture would be another confusing, but perfectly accurate title.
3. 'Re-spell' them - call them the Kelts
4. Among the separate Celtic 'tribes' that could be used to complete the stupefaction of the Gaming Public are:
Tectosages
Senones
Venetii
Parisii
Pictones
Sequanes
Helvetii
Treveri
Volcae
BUT some of these are off in southern Germany and central Europe, so really don't apply to the center of the 'Celtic Realm'.

I really, really want a Celtic faction in the game. If they aren't going to include it in the Release Game, I hope somebody Mods it in As Soon As Possible . . .

 

[Jkchart]

Let's see, how to smuggle 'Celts' into an alphabetic Faction List for the Classical Era of Humankind, when they seem to have already skipped past both Celts and Gauls as Faction Titles.

1. The center of the Celtic cultural realm in Europe was the Halstatt Culture of 800 - 450 BCE (approximately): Call them the Halstatt Culture, which would confuse the H**l out of most gamers but actually be as accurate as any other title for them.
2. Halstatt was followed by the La Tene Culture (450 BCE to Roman Contact), one center of which was around Paris, so La Tene Culture would be another confusing, but perfectly accurate title.
3. 'Re-spell' them - call them the Kelts
4. Among the separate Celtic 'tribes' that could be used to complete the stupefaction of the Gaming Public are:
Tectosages
Senones
Venetii
Parisii
Pictones
Sequanes
Helvetii
Treveri
Volcae
BUT some of these are off in southern Germany and central Europe, so really don't apply to the center of the 'Celtic Realm'.

I really, really want a Celtic faction in the game. If they aren't going to include it in the Release Game, I hope somebody Mods it in As Soon As Possible . . .

Someone has suggested the Picts showing up as an Iron age Celtic/British faction, which is possible

 

[Matthias Corvinus]

Perhaps the Franks are being represented instead of something entirely Celtic.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Posts moved to this thread from the Known Info About Humankind thread.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Perhaps the Franks are being represented instead of something entirely Celtic.

Problem with that is that the Classical Franks were a Germanic Tribe and not Celtic at all. That would give them two Germanic Factions (Goths and Franks) and no Celts in the Classical Era - not a great distribution of Factions, I would think.

 

[Siptah]

and Franks should be medieval anyway.


Another thing:
did we see a siege unit yet? Or any confirmation that such a thing exists in the game?

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

I can confirm that siege units exist, but that's all you'll hear from me on that subject for now.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I can confirm that siege units exist, but that's all you'll hear from me on that subject for now.

Not to put words onto anybody's Thread post, but in Amplitude's previous Fantasy game Endless Legend 'seiges' were handled very abstractly and very differently from Civilization. You moved an army next to a city, declared a Siege, stylized 'siege lines' appeared around the city, and the city defenses slowly eroded away, based on the size of your army. When the defenses reached Zero, you could storm the place.

Coming from a different direction, until the Bombard appears in the very late Medieval Era (1375 CE in France) almost all 'Siege Engines', including Towers, Rams, big stone-throwing Catapults and Trebuchets, were built on the spot of the siege using (mostly the metal) parts hauled in on pack animals or carts. There was no 'siege train' of separate units the army dragged along with it. That makes the Endless Legend system a real possibility for a historical game, for at least the Ancient/Bronze, Classical and Medieval Eras, maybe bringing in the first 'separate' Siege Unit in the Bombard at the very beginning of the Renaissance/Early Modern Era.

IF nothing else, that would simplify early Unit Lists by removing a whole bunch of historically-suspect separate Battering Rams, Siege Towers and Catapults roaming the Map . . .

Of course, to do it Right (and I don't remember Endless Legend bothering with this) there should be the possibility of building or 'improving' City Walls and fortifications to include bolt-throwing anti-troop catapults or stone-throwing Anti-Siege Machine catapults ('lithoboulos') in the city defenses during the Classical Era - expensive but the 'last word' in City Defenses.

And, as one of my favorite Historical Trivia bits, as a result of the importance of catapult technology to city defense among the Greek city states, Firing a Catapult for range and accuracy was an event in the Greek Panhellenic Games (the Olympic Games were only the best-known of four such: the others were the Nemean, Pythian, and Isthmian Games). I've always hoped that would be revived for the modern Olympics - a team in national colors hauling a torsion catapult onto the field, tuning it (perfect pitch was a requirement for a good catapult engineer) and tossing away at a target.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

You could attack before all the fortification points were drained but the remaining fortification points would be applied to each defender giving them a an extra layer of health that you would have to chip down. Even a low amount of fortification points could tip the scale and make even militia units tough to take down. You could also continue to wait after the fortification points had depleted and the units inside the city would begin to take damage so the defender would be forced to sally out or their units would be destroyed anyway and the city taken.

It was a good system it was also one the AI could use fairly effectively with alot of cities changing hands and major empires getting wiped out far into the late game.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

You could attack before all the fortification points were drained but the remaining fortification points would be applied to each defender giving them a an extra layer of health that you would have to chip down. Even a low amount of fortification points could tip the scale and make even militia units tough to take down. You could also continue to wait after the fortification points had depleted and the units inside the city would begin to take damage so the defender would be forced to sally out or their units would be destroyed anyway and the city taken.

It was a good system it was also one the AI could use fairly effectively with alot of cities changing hands and major empires getting wiped out far into the late game.

Thanks for the additions: it's been a while since I've played the game, and I'd forgotten a lot of the details - which make the system even more adaptable to a Historical 4X game.

AND if a similar system of adding Fortification factors to each unit was adapted to include (late game) Field Fortifications or Fortresses, the Siege Warfare of the 18th century in northeastern Europe or the ghastly fortified Western Front in 1914 - 1918 or Maginot/Siegfried Lines of 1940 - 1944 could be easily represented in the game as well.

 

[CivLuvah]

Imgur album updated to include Goths and new terminology for "Warmonger" (Militarist)

https://imgur.com/a/4cPjGSY

 

[SeelingCat]

New picture from le Twitter:

 

[Jkchart]

New picture from le Twitter:

Pretty sure this is a Goths village.

 

[Uberfrog]

Yes that will be the Tumulus and the Gothic cavalry on display