Humankind - Germans discussion thread

Spoiler That's one hell of a statement :

Napoleonic Wars up to 1815
  • Battlefields typically were less than 10 km long
  • Army commanders were at the battlefield within eye sight of what was taking place
  • Men stood shoulder to shoulder, generally in the open, as the machine gun had not yet been invented and indirect fire (mortars) had limited impact
  • The enemy was dislodged from their positions through a combination of direct fire artillery and mass infantry or cavalry charges
European Great War in 1918
  • Battlefields stretch the full length of the front
  • Army commanders were behind the front lines and received feedback on what was happening remotely
  • Men stayed under cover and spread out as much as possible, as machine gun fire and indirect fire (howitzers) made open ground killing fields; aircraft were also active, though their impact on men on the ground was typically limited
  • The enemy was dislodged from their positions through a combination of indirect fire (howitzers) and (very ineffectively) mass infantry supplemented, at the end of the war, with armoured vehicles
Modern Warfare
  • Battlefields stretch the full length of the front
  • Army commanders are behind the front lines and receive feedback on what is happening remotely
  • Men stay under cover and spread out as much as possible, as machine gun fire and indirect fire (aircraft, supplemented by howitzers) make open ground killing fields
  • The enemy is dislodged from their positions through a combination of indirect fire (aircraft, supplemented by howitzers) and armoured vehicles, supported by infantry

If you're designing a set of game rules to govern how battles take place in a game, you could cover the 1600s through to the mid 1850's with a single set of rules, but you need a whole new set of rules to govern later battles after the machine gun, howitzers, aircraft, and tanks are introduced. You could design a single set of rules to cover from 1918 to the modern period, though, which was my point about having an era that straddles both older and newer forms of battles, rather than having that period be marked by an era change.
 
@Trav'ling Canuck: Good summary, with just a few additions/comments:

From Antiquity to 1815 CE there is a continuity in size of battlefield, place and actions of the Commander, and concentration of men on the battlefield. The formations of Waterloo in 1815 were not appreciably different from those of Gaugamela in 333 BCE: infantry in dense lines, cavalry maneuvering in 500 - 1000 man units, both armies laid out in dense linear formations.

The first big change came with the introduction of gunpowder weapons, which firmly moved the Killing Power to Ranged Weapons instead of Melee, and started the process of thinning the lines and the density of the formations. It was now paramount that all the men carrying muskets got a chance to use them, so deep formations wasted firepower and were gradually reduced to the "Thin Red Line" - which was still shoulder to shoulder, but only 2 ranks deep instead of 6, 10, or 16 ranks as in ancient, classical, or medieval armies. The fact that the army was drawn up in 2 or more lines, however, meant the battlefield was still pretty densely packed and all that gunpowder had a lot of targets.

The next big change was in Command and Control. Up until the middle of the 18th century, there was virtually no permanent organization between the brigade of 2 - 4000 men and the Army of 50,000 +. Army Commanders had 'Wing' Commanders (the successor to the medieval 'Battle') but they were organized on the battlefield and frequently Wing Commanders had nothing in the way of staff or support to exercise real control. It was not until after 1750 CE that first France, then Russia introduced Divisions of several brigades to produce an intermediate command structure to make it easier to control large armies. By the early 19th century (1805, to be exact), Napoleon introduced the Corps d'Armee (Army Corps) or several infantry divisions supported by batteries of artillery and brigades of cavalry that formed 'little armies' that could operate independently or, together, control really huge armies by all previous standards.

It was not the machinegun, but the indirect fire artillery (recoil mechanisms and advanced trigonometry) firing huge amounts of High Explosive that caused armies to 'spread out' dramatically. The armies of the Franco-Prussian War, the last major war between Great Powers without such weapons, covered about the same space per man as the armies of Napoleon, even though, supposedly, the rifles and artillery had much greater range. The problem wasn't range, it was finding a target through all the gunpowder smoke and controlling armies of 100,000 men or more if they spread out too far: couriers on foot or on horseback were moving at the same speed they had for Alexander at Gaugamela or Napoleon at Waterloo. Both the armies of 1870 and the Russian and Japanese armies in Manchuria in 1905, which were 2 - 3 times larger, ran into serious problems trying to control, or even find out, what was happening on the 'battlefield'.

That problem got even worse in WWI. Not only were the battles even more spread out, but the near-universal mass of High Explosive being fired by everyone killed most communications: telephone wires broken, couriers blown to fragments, carrier pigeons shot down in droves.

The apparently increased mobility of the battles of WWII owed as much to radio as to the tank or motorized vehicle. It was radio communications while moving and down to individual companies or platoons that made it possible to (barely) control WWII battles, and to provide the support to successful small actions that turned them into breakthroughs, pursuits, and decisive victories.

In game terms, Humankind seems to be using the Endless Legend system of increasing the number of units allowed in an 'Army' in tactical actions as you progress through the Eras and allowing more 'off the battlefield' support later in the game to represent Reserves intervening or long range artillery/air support to the men in the 'killing field'. In game terms, I'd still like to see increases in concentration directly tied to certain Techs rather than simply by Era and the use of Reserves and other 'off the tactical map' intervention directly tied to Communications Technology - first the telephone/telegraph, then, especially, the radio and possibly a final Boost from Satellite Communications in the past 30 years which make electronic communications practically Universal down to the individual vehicle and soldier - a development with distinctly negative as well as positive aspects.

By the way, supporting your original thesis, in miniatures wargaming, the WRG rules cover battles from Ancient to Renaissance (pre-gunpowder) armies and 'ancients' tournaments at wargame conventions regularly pit armies as historically different as Incan or New Kingdom Egyptian and Teutonic Knights against each other. Because, of course, the general configuration of the units and armies is similar, regardless of their (all muscle-powered) weapons and armor.

Rich Hasenauer's Fire and Fury rules for the American Civil War, one of the most popular sets of miniature wargames rules ever written, has spawned variations covering battles from 1701 CE (War of the Spanish Succession) to the Franco-Prussian War (1870 CE) with no major changes to the rules (Lots and lots of changes to the firepower factors, of course). BUT Rich's set of World War Two rules, Battlefront, although based on the same game mechanisms, is so different from Fire and Fury as to be almost unrecognizeable.
 
Someone on Discord highlighted this anachronism at the Zhou reveal, and suggested "Philosopher's School" for exemple (in Zhou chinese ?) to focus more on all the schools of thought developed during Zhou dinasty. It sounds a valid idea for me.
I think I suggested "School of Philosophy" on this forum, which sounds more elegant and sophisticated in my opinion.
 
I think I suggested "School of Philosophy" on this forum, which sounds more elegant and sophisticated in my opinion.

It certainly sound elegant and avoid the problem of "Confucian".

Although as someone who study Early Chinese Philosophy, I would say "School of Philosophy" is an anachronism as well.
Early China (Zhou) did have many philosophers, but none of them established any educational institutions, unlike their Greek counterparts.
 
Really? The ridiculously ahistorical nonsense of having Germany’s UU be a Uboat, again?

If you want to represent a distinctly German “unique” unit that had a considerable impact on both military development AND history, the hands down no brainer chose is the Krupp Field Gun

The German Army was using cast steel breechloading cannon when just about everyone else had bronze or iron muzzle loaders. It was the key factor in Germany obliterating the Austrian and then French Empires and finally forming one united nation

Germany’s unique should be better artillery

The runner up is obviously the Panzer

As far as defining cultural traits, it would be Music, follower by Industry/Engineering, followed by military stuff

Can we get a German civilization that isn’t a frankly creepy militaristic Wehaboo fantasy?

I was hoping for something better than Civ VI where Germany is literally incentivized to genocide small neutral countries and the German AI considers treaties with them a virtual causis belli

Nope. More cringe.
 
If you want to represent a distinctly German “unique” unit that had a considerable impact on both military development AND history, the hands down no brainer chose is the Krupp Field Gun
The German Army was using cast steel breechloading cannon when just about everyone else had bronze or iron muzzle loaders. It was the key factor in Germany obliterating the Austrian and then French Empires and finally forming one united nation

I understand your frustration and sentiment about the presentation of Germany - However, the Legacy Trait of the in-game Germans is excatly "+3 Combat Strength to Artillery Units".

"+3 combat strength" in this game literally means piercing through your enemies, roughly equal to Civ VI's +7/+10 combat bonuses. I would say that's a fairly accurate presentation of Germany's superior artillery in their age.
 
I understand your frustration and sentiment about the presentation of Germany - However, the Legacy Trait of the in-game Germans is excatly "+3 Combat Strength to Artillery Units".

"+3 combat strength" in this game literally means piercing through your enemies, roughly equal to Civ VI's +7/+10 combat bonuses. I would say that's a fairly accurate presentation of Germany's superior artillery in their age.

This is nice, but the UU being a Uboat, again still pisses me off
 
As far as defining cultural traits, it would be Music, follower by Industry/Engineering, followed by military stuff

Can we get a German civilization that isn’t a frankly creepy militaristic Wehaboo fantasy?

Having an industry Emblematic Quarter (the only one of all industrial european cultures), a stealth naval unit (expected to be the only one of this era) emblematic of a form of engineering, and a buff on artillery.

I can understand you are not fan of the Uboat choice, but we are really far from a "creepy militaristic wehaboo fantasy".

For Music, Austro-Hungarians and Italians got it in their Emblematic Quarters. Again the same thing : it's a game, not everyone can be the aesthete. Germans are famous in this period for their military doctrine : make really short and decisive wars because their country had limited resources and their strength wasnt prolonged war. Basically, they were famous to be strong even without being the biggest european empire of this period.
For me, some militarist traits, gameplay wise, to Germans seemed obvious and legitimate : it mean than I am "cringe" because I support this ?

Personnally I expected Mexicans being militarist too. Militarist is not a slur. I expected that for Mexicans for their emblematic fight and resistance against the oppressor. In another way, I expected Norsemen being agrarian, because they were better navigators, farmers and fishers than warriors ... but most of poeple found obvious than they were militarists.

My meaning : it's good to make more constructive statements, and respectful of everyone's tastes.
You said than Krubb Field Gun was the most obvious and no brainer choice, it's one of the rare time I saw it suggested, here, on reddit or discord. I remember of a german guy spamming on reddit than the no brainer choice was the Stormtrooper.
Another one a flamethrower unit... it seems that it diverges from an ultimate consensus :mischief:
 
Having an industry Emblematic Quarter (the only one of all industrial european cultures), a stealth naval unit (expected to be the only one of this era) emblematic of a form of engineering, and a buff on artillery.

I can understand you are not fan of the Uboat choice, but we are really far from a "creepy militaristic wehaboo fantasy".

For Music, Austro-Hungarians and Italians got it in their Emblematic Quarters. Again the same thing : it's a game, not everyone can be the aesthete. Germans are famous in this period for their military doctrine : make really short and decisive wars because their country had limited resources and their strength wasnt prolonged war. Basically, they were famous to be strong even without being the biggest european empire of this period.
For me, some militarist traits, gameplay wise, to Germans seemed obvious and legitimate : it mean than I am "cringe" because I support this ?

Personnally I expected Mexicans being militarist too. Militarist is not a slur. I expected that for Mexicans for their emblematic fight and resistance against the oppressor. In another way, I expected Norsemen being agrarian, because they were better navigators, farmers and fishers than warriors ... but most of poeple found obvious than they were militarists.

My meaning : it's good to make more constructive statements, and respectful of everyone's tastes.
You said than Krubb Field Gun was the most obvious and no brainer choice, it's one of the rare time I saw it suggested, here, on reddit or discord. I remember of a german guy spamming on reddit than the no brainer choice was the Stormtrooper.
Another one a flamethrower unit... it seems that it diverges from an ultimate consensus :mischief:

Ok I agree with most of your points except the following

Anyone who actually knows their history knows what a huge deal German unification was

And Krupp’s cannon had an enormous influence on that. It was probably the biggest factor in how quickly Austria and France were crushed, and without that the 2nd Reich never would have happened.

It was also literally unique on the battlefield for it’s time.

If rhat isn’t the very definition of “should be a unique unit” I don’t know what is

This entire exchange shows how fracking ignorant the average person is of actual history today. It’s ridiculous

And yes, Germany getting a military bonus for trampling minor neutrals is creepy, and the German AI having a bias against them is also creepy. It’s as bad as the game having a slavery mechanic, and America getting bonuses towards it.
 
I didn't say that you were wrong about your Krupps, I just say than without constructive statement :
How do you want than poeple and maybe the devs take your opinion into account, if your arguments are basically to say than poeple which think in another way than you, don't have the same ideas than you, or don't have the same way to design industrial Germans for a videogame than you ...are just ignorants

And yes, Germany getting a military bonus for trampling minor neutrals is creepy, and the German AI having a bias against them is also creepy. It’s as bad as the game having a slavery mechanic, and America getting bonuses towards it.

All of this is not in the game... what's your point here ? Germans don't have any bonus about trampling neutrals or bias against them ...

I mean, you just justified the Germans bonus yourself ... Everyone can have artillery in the game, but Germans will be the best with it. It's their uniqueness on the battlefield for it's time.
They decided to show that in their bonus, instead of their unit. It's not a mistake, it's a game design choice ... In any case : Germans being able to crush its opponents with its better artillery is in the game, but not as an unit like you expected.
The rest of their bonus is about industry and workers ...
The only real "industrial revolution" culture of the game at the moment.

My opinion, basically = it's no so obvious than you pretend, to say than a unique artillery unit is a best choice than having an unique bonus related to artillery. For me, it's the same meaning, for my subjective tastes, and not my "freaking ignorance".

Because at the end, the resume of your statement here seems to be than you don't like the current unit, and you would have prefered a Krupps canon.
 
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If you want to represent a distinctly German “unique” unit that had a considerable impact on both military development AND history, the hands down no brainer chose is the Krupp Field Gun

The German Army was using cast steel breechloading cannon when just about everyone else had bronze or iron muzzle loaders. It was the key factor in Germany obliterating the Austrian and then French Empires and finally forming one united nation

Germany’s unique should be better artillery

I did not know about the Krupp Field gun but thats really interesting so thanks for bringing it up. Having a unique artillery unit would be pretty nice and a better fit for Germany. It's pretty odd that a culture so well known for having a strong land army has a naval EU (And Britain the naval power has an infantry EU).

Gameplay wise the U-boat has an interesting niche as it seems to be a submarine unit you can access an era earlier but the Krupp field gun feels more thematic for this culture and era. I think they made a mistake trying to tape WW1 on to the end of the Industrial era but its too late for that now.
 
It's pretty odd that a culture so well known for having a strong land army has a naval EU (And Britain the naval power has an infantry EU).
Not really, you just need to look at it in context.
U-boats are famous because it was Germany's brilliant move which largely nullified the naval advantage of their main adversaries. It is the thing that allowed them to both be a land-focused military and still prevail. It doesn't have to be the unit uniquely associated with them, but it's certainly not a bad or generic one.
Likewise, the context is strongly important for Britain. There was nothing unique about the British ships that would make them stand out from the rest in this era. What made Royal Navy a force to be reckoned with came down to the different approach to navy as an institution. It was the sailors that were important and unique, not the ships. And said sailors wore redcoat uniforms, could work as marines and march on the American revolutionary troops (IIRC, the Redcoats in the game even have a bonus tied to being the marines, not a contintal regiment). Which is once again a pretty well-defendable argument for why they are a decent choice even if you could find some specific pattern of ships with a good track record associated with the British and give them that instead.
 
Not really, you just need to look at it in context.
U-boats are famous because it was Germany's brilliant move which largely nullified the naval advantage of their main adversaries. It is the thing that allowed them to both be a land-focused military and still prevail. It doesn't have to be the unit uniquely associated with them, but it's certainly not a bad or generic one.
Likewise, the context is strongly important for Britain. There was nothing unique about the British ships that would make them stand out from the rest in this era. What made Royal Navy a force to be reckoned with came down to the different approach to navy as an institution. It was the sailors that were important and unique, not the ships. And said sailors wore redcoat uniforms, could work as marines and march on the American revolutionary troops (IIRC, the Redcoats in the game even have a bonus tied to being the marines, not a contintal regiment). Which is once again a pretty well-defendable argument for why they are a decent choice even if you could find some specific pattern of ships with a good track record associated with the British and give them that instead.

The Royal Navy dominance was largely a) numbers and b) geography

The German Navy in both world wars punched ridiculously over its weight and handed them some pretty hilarious upsets

The British infantry on the other hand are justifiably famous for having an impact far beyond their numbers, so a UU for them seems fitting
 
Not really, you just need to look at it in context.
U-boats are famous because it was Germany's brilliant move which largely nullified the naval advantage of their main adversaries. It is the thing that allowed them to both be a land-focused military and still prevail. It doesn't have to be the unit uniquely associated with them, but it's certainly not a bad or generic one.
Likewise, the context is strongly important for Britain. There was nothing unique about the British ships that would make them stand out from the rest in this era. What made Royal Navy a force to be reckoned with came down to the different approach to navy as an institution. It was the sailors that were important and unique, not the ships. And said sailors wore redcoat uniforms, could work as marines and march on the American revolutionary troops (IIRC, the Redcoats in the game even have a bonus tied to being the marines, not a contintal regiment). Which is once again a pretty well-defendable argument for why they are a decent choice even if you could find some specific pattern of ships with a good track record associated with the British and give them that instead.

Well the U-boat din't really work out in the long run, but the Krupp field gun is linked to a succesful war and is somewhat closer in period to the British and French EU's so its nicer thematically.
 
Just a few notes to all the posts about "German Military Emblematics"

1. The Krupp cast steel cannon was introduced in 1856 as the 6-Pfünder-Feldkanone C/61, which was a rifled muzzle-loader. By 1859 they had a breechloading model, but too much gas escaped from the breech to make it successful. It wasn't until the late 1860s that they achieved, with the Broadwell Ring invention, a successfully sealed breech and effective breechloading rifled steel cannon. That means that the Prussian artillery in 1866 against the Austrians was in fact still mostly muzzle-loading smoothbores and was badly out-shot by the Austrians, who had already bought a bunch of rifled Krupp guns! It was the Prussian infantry with breechloading 'needlegun' rifles that won that war. By 1870 the Prussian Army had adopted the Krupp breechloaders, and in the Franco-Prussian War it was, indeed, Prussian artillery that won the battles - but the victories were as much due to superior organization and concentration of fire than any technical superiority of the guns themselves.

2. Any superiority of the German land forces over their opponents was much less due to any technical superiority of weapons - which was ephemeral at best, as fast as military technology was changing in the late 19th century and early 20th century - and more to the institution of the German Grossergeneralstab, the "Great General Staff" which institutionalized serious thinking about all aspects of military organization, tactics, operations, and strategy. It was this group of highly-trained officers that ensured that not only would German armies have good weapons, but they would also have the organization and tactics to make the best use of the weapons, as in the better concentration of their artillery in 1870 which simply overwhelmed the individual French batteries opposing them.

3. The Stormtrooper and the flammenwerfer (flamethrower) were both German innovations, but both too specific to replicate the general German tactical superiority engendered by the General Staff. "Stormtrooper', aside from having really negative vibes related to the Nazi SS and SA political Thugs of the 1930s, was simply German innovative and aggressive junior leadership from very well-trained officers applied to assault tactics, and was the general mode of operation for the entire German Army after WWI, not a specific unit. The flamethrower is a weapon for destroying fortifications and the troops occupying them, but is virtually useless anywhere else - and men carrying flamethrowers attract fire like flames attract moths, so the weapon is heartily disliked by both friend and foe in all armies.

4. The Royal Navy from the end of the Industrial Era to the beginning of the Modern Era led the way in all aspects of Naval Technology. Among the British innovations:
The self-propelled torpedo, and the Torpedo Boat to fire it, and the Torpedo Boat Destroyer to guard against it.
The first rifled naval breechloading cannon, by Armstrong in 1859
The first all-big-gun ship in 1906 - the HMS Dreadnaught, prototype for all later Battleships
Steam Turbine power for warships
Oil fired boilers for warships, doing away with the massive clouds of coal smoke that obscured naval gunnery
Centralized fire control for the big guns on the battleships
The first aircraft carrier with a full-length Flight Deck, AND the world's first ship built from the keel up as an aircraft carrier, AND the first aircraft carriers with armored Flight Decks, AND the first angled flight decks on aircraft carriers.

5. The German U-Boats became famous because the rest of the German Navy in both wars turned out to be a near-complete waste of money. They built the second largest fleet of battleships in the world by 1916, but were still both outnumbered and hugely outgunned by the Home Fleet of the Royal Navy. In both wars, they emphasized building battleships and battlecruisers but never built an aircraft carrier - their only attempt in WWII was never finished, and frankly, was a mediocre design that would have been completely outclassed by any British or US Navy fleet carrier.

The U-Boats were, quite simply, all they had left to work with, and the German U-Boat arm, as successful as it was early in WWII, ended the war with possibly the most negative legacy of any military force in the war: a higher percentage of U-Boat crews were killed in action than in any other military force: 39,000 men served on U-Boats, and 32,000 of them died. By contrast, of the Japanese aerial Kamakaze force, 6000 out of 9000 men enrolled survived the war (they ran out of aircraft and aviation fuel so that most of them never got off the ground in the first place)

If they had to have a single Emblematic to represent German military advantage from the mid-19th century to the mid-twentieth century, something representing the superiority of the German General Staff training from the company commander up would have been better, but it wouldn't have been an Emblematic Unit, rather an Emblematic Advantage applied to all ground units, which might have been much harder to code int the game given the mechanic of specific Emblematic Units they had already started with.
 
thanks for all these informations Boris.

If they had to have a single Emblematic to represent German military advantage from the mid-19th century to the mid-twentieth century, something representing the superiority of the German General Staff training from the company commander up would have been better, but it wouldn't have been an Emblematic Unit, rather an Emblematic Advantage applied to all ground units, which might have been much harder to code int the game given the mechanic of specific Emblematic Units they had already started with.

Recently, someone suggested on discord than this sort of advantage could be the Militarist affinity passive. I found the idea quite interesting, even if I don't how affinities will evolve or just be tweaked.
Militarist right know is about spawning reservists, which is okay even if these reservists could be a bit buffed imo. But an additionnial tactical advantage sounds appealing, and could encompass this missing part of the Germans design.
 
Just a few notes to all the posts about "German Military Emblematics"

1. The Krupp cast steel cannon was introduced in 1856 as the 6-Pfünder-Feldkanone C/61, which was a rifled muzzle-loader. By 1859 they had a breechloading model, but too much gas escaped from the breech to make it successful. It wasn't until the late 1860s that they achieved, with the Broadwell Ring invention, a successfully sealed breech and effective breechloading rifled steel cannon. That means that the Prussian artillery in 1866 against the Austrians was in fact still mostly muzzle-loading smoothbores and was badly out-shot by the Austrians, who had already bought a bunch of rifled Krupp guns! It was the Prussian infantry with breechloading 'needlegun' rifles that won that war. By 1870 the Prussian Army had adopted the Krupp breechloaders, and in the Franco-Prussian War it was, indeed, Prussian artillery that won the battles - but the victories were as much due to superior organization and concentration of fire than any technical superiority of the guns themselves.

2. Any superiority of the German land forces over their opponents was much less due to any technical superiority of weapons - which was ephemeral at best, as fast as military technology was changing in the late 19th century and early 20th century - and more to the institution of the German Grossergeneralstab, the "Great General Staff" which institutionalized serious thinking about all aspects of military organization, tactics, operations, and strategy. It was this group of highly-trained officers that ensured that not only would German armies have good weapons, but they would also have the organization and tactics to make the best use of the weapons, as in the better concentration of their artillery in 1870 which simply overwhelmed the individual French batteries opposing them.

3. The Stormtrooper and the flammenwerfer (flamethrower) were both German innovations, but both too specific to replicate the general German tactical superiority engendered by the General Staff. "Stormtrooper', aside from having really negative vibes related to the Nazi SS and SA political Thugs of the 1930s, was simply German innovative and aggressive junior leadership from very well-trained officers applied to assault tactics, and was the general mode of operation for the entire German Army after WWI, not a specific unit. The flamethrower is a weapon for destroying fortifications and the troops occupying them, but is virtually useless anywhere else - and men carrying flamethrowers attract fire like flames attract moths, so the weapon is heartily disliked by both friend and foe in all armies.

4. The Royal Navy from the end of the Industrial Era to the beginning of the Modern Era led the way in all aspects of Naval Technology. Among the British innovations:
The self-propelled torpedo, and the Torpedo Boat to fire it, and the Torpedo Boat Destroyer to guard against it.
The first rifled naval breechloading cannon, by Armstrong in 1859
The first all-big-gun ship in 1906 - the HMS Dreadnaught, prototype for all later Battleships
Steam Turbine power for warships
Oil fired boilers for warships, doing away with the massive clouds of coal smoke that obscured naval gunnery
Centralized fire control for the big guns on the battleships
The first aircraft carrier with a full-length Flight Deck, AND the world's first ship built from the keel up as an aircraft carrier, AND the first aircraft carriers with armored Flight Decks, AND the first angled flight decks on aircraft carriers.

5. The German U-Boats became famous because the rest of the German Navy in both wars turned out to be a near-complete waste of money. They built the second largest fleet of battleships in the world by 1916, but were still both outnumbered and hugely outgunned by the Home Fleet of the Royal Navy. In both wars, they emphasized building battleships and battlecruisers but never built an aircraft carrier - their only attempt in WWII was never finished, and frankly, was a mediocre design that would have been completely outclassed by any British or US Navy fleet carrier.

The U-Boats were, quite simply, all they had left to work with, and the German U-Boat arm, as successful as it was early in WWII, ended the war with possibly the most negative legacy of any military force in the war: a higher percentage of U-Boat crews were killed in action than in any other military force: 39,000 men served on U-Boats, and 32,000 of them died. By contrast, of the Japanese aerial Kamakaze force, 6000 out of 9000 men enrolled survived the war (they ran out of aircraft and aviation fuel so that most of them never got off the ground in the first place)

If they had to have a single Emblematic to represent German military advantage from the mid-19th century to the mid-twentieth century, something representing the superiority of the German General Staff training from the company commander up would have been better, but it wouldn't have been an Emblematic Unit, rather an Emblematic Advantage applied to all ground units, which might have been much harder to code int the game given the mechanic of specific Emblematic Units they had already started with.

This is first a game, and second a game where the military and combat aspects are very abstracted, the level of detail you are getting into is literally tactical level military simulation, so it’s irrelevant.

The German surface fleet in both wars tied down so many RN assets it had a huge war changing impact on other theates,I could easily go chapter and verse on this, but it’s getting fairly off topic.

Some sort of passive buff affecting all military units sounds like it could be warranted for the militarist affinity
 
This is first a game, and second a game where the military and combat aspects are very abstracted, the level of detail you are getting into is literally tactical level military simulation, so it’s irrelevant.

With all due respect, I wasn't the one that brought up an individual Krupp field piece in the context of this game.

The German surface fleet in both wars tied down so many RN assets it had a huge war changing impact on other theates,I could easily go chapter and verse on this, but it’s getting fairly off topic.

To which I would only point out that the German battlefleet in WWI tied up so many German industrial assets that by 1918 the German air arm was outnumbered 5 to 1 over France, and Germany managed to manufacture and get into combat less than 50 tanks total during the entire war, or about 1/50 of the British and French total. And in WWII the the Blucher, Bismarck, Scharnhorst, and Graf Spee all learned the hard way that the Royal Navy still had plenty of assets left to sink any German warship that tried to venture out of Germany's coastal waters. I repeat, the German surface navy in both wars was more of a drain on German assets than their enemies'
 
With all due respect, I wasn't the one that brought up an individual Krupp field piece in the context of this game.



To which I would only point out that the German battlefleet in WWI tied up so many German industrial assets that by 1918 the German air arm was outnumbered 5 to 1 over France, and Germany managed to manufacture and get into combat less than 50 tanks total during the entire war, or about 1/50 of the British and French total. And in WWII the the Blucher, Bismarck, Scharnhorst, and Graf Spee all learned the hard way that the Royal Navy still had plenty of assets left to sink any German warship that tried to venture out of Germany's coastal waters. I repeat, the German surface navy in both wars was more of a drain on German assets than their enemies'

You’re absolutly dead wrong, and we can continue this over PM if you want, but I feel like we are really derailing the thread now

I mean this is pretty far off topic
 
thanks for all these informations Boris.



Recently, someone suggested on discord than this sort of advantage could be the Militarist affinity passive. I found the idea quite interesting, even if I don't how affinities will evolve or just be tweaked.
Militarist right know is about spawning reservists, which is okay even if these reservists could be a bit buffed imo. But an additionnial tactical advantage sounds appealing, and could encompass this missing part of the Germans design.

Oh, I‘d love that. Since at the moment the militarist affinity really seems more about reacting when getting invaded. The reservists are a defensive move, so they do fit better to the Mexicans or the Zulu than to the Germans. But what gameplay effect can „superior staff education“ have? I wouldn‘t just want stronger units, that seems wrong. Maybe less life lost on the defensive or faster healing or hurt units fight as if they had more health?

And that‘s also my general answer to the debate in here: First, emblematic doesn‘t mean unique or better. It’s hard to argue that German submarines didn’t catch popular imagination (See also: the movie „Das Boot“). Second, for gameplay reasons, it‘s better to focus some cultures on some aspects. I can live with the militaristic germans, as we have the aesthete Austro-Hungarians and I do think we will get Builder or Scientific Early Modern Prussians at one point. And third, they can always change it up later or add another emblematic. I judge amplitude to be a developer that isn‘t afraid to do just that. Not like in that other game, where the vanilla civs - often the biggest names in history - are often the weakest civs because of power creep over the lifetime of the game.
 
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