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Humankind - Poles Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Humankind by Amplitude' started by Eagle Pursuit, Aug 18, 2020.

  1. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    I have four problems with Venetians in EM:
    1) Venice would fit medieval better - it is the golden age of merchant republics, there was a lot of intrigue and warfare between Italian states, it was partly Venice which took down Byzantium, it participated in crusades...
    2) We already have Dutch as naval merchant culture in EM.
    3) EM (Renaissance) Italy could instead get Tuscany or Milan with AESTETHE FOCUS!!! Its such clear opportunity
    4) Venice in EM means no Subsaharan culture in EM, which is weird to me, I thought they were going for wholesome "every era you have some great black culture" ;) and EM has a lot of Subsaharan candidates.

    Sweden is fine in industrial, but it would be really cool in early modern. One poster above tried to dismiss "few decades of warfare" but this 150 year long period of Swedish warfare (1570 - 1720) feature the best military machine on the continent, which revolutionized gunpowder warfare. EM Sweden was a major player of Thirty Year old war, a major nemesis of Poles (and absent Danish and Russians)... It is the archetypal militarist culture of this period, much more than Polish.

    So I'd prefer it over Venice as well :p
     
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  2. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

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    Yes, Swedes could be a really nice militarist pick (even as expansionist) for Early Modern Era. But "the best military machine on the continent, which revolutionized gunpowder warfare" seems to be an overexagerated statement for me.
    Yes Gustavus Adolphus is one of the pioneers in term of basis of European land armies. But they didn't outclass everyone on the whole continent, no. Nothing comparable to the European Great Powers or the Islamic gunpowders empires especially Ottomans which invade a part of the continent.
    There is a lot of important aspects of the Early Modern warfare and of the gunpowder usage, where the Swedes are neither the pioneers nor the experts. (line battles for exemple, they adopted it as everyone else, but they were not the iniators)

    But yes, these periods of wars are important for Sweden, because it's give them the oppurnity to exist as an established state, in front of huge empires. They don't need the "ultimate european war marchine" argument, to be envisaged for Early Modern imo.

    For the arguments about Venice in medieval era, I cannot validate the one of "there was a lot of intrigue and warfare between Italian states". Italian Wars are highly associated to Renaissance, so Early Modern in the game. It's the best era to settle these conflicts.

    Anyway, medieval era in Humankind is not at all focused on naval gameplay (from Cat). Medieval naval warfare in europe was indeed really secondary : Yes Byzantine and Venetian controled the sea, because no one really tried to outclass them, so they have always their Roman navy. (similar navy army composition and similar ships)

    I prefer to have another naval culture in Medieval Era from another part of the world where naval design and warfare really matter. Malay archipelago for exemple, which was a sort of huge Thalassocracy. And they had some innovative and really interesting ship design. For europe : the Sicilians, a leading maritime power in the Mediterranean Sea for almost a century, they decided one day to take Byzantine territories, and they totally outclassed the Venetian-Byzantine alliance in naval warfare. (they were stopped by the death of their leader). For the Italian culture representation in medieval era : something innovative, the Lombard culture for exemple, with a good lineage from Goth (which is not naval btw)

    So yes there is solid arguments to have Venetians in Medieval instead of EM. But no, they are not the first choice for a naval culture or an italian culture in medieval era.
    For me, in medieval era, they were just good as citystate if transposed to a 4X. In Renaissance, they have the potential to be a widespread culture. (Controlling multiple cities,territories, and colonies. Founding new cities and colonies. Their golden age is just on the 15th century : if they didn't lose versus the Ottomans, they would have had a decent empire, ... And the Galeasse is not medieval).

    > So I only see two possibilities, imho : Venetians are not a major culture, but a citystate in medieval era. Or a culture in EM.
    If they are confirmed, we will have two Merchant, two Aesthete and two expansionist. Looks really decent for the period in term of gameplay. And if they add Tuscans or Napolitans later in dlc, we will have the Italian-Wars representation in Early Modern.

    But maybe we will get Swedes, we will see in two weeks.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2020
  3. j51

    j51 Blue Star Cadet

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    I wonder why they didn't name EM Polish "Polish-Lithuanian" when they named Industrial "Austro-Hungarians."
     
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  4. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

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  5. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    They might want to add medieval Lithuania later on and thus avoided Polish-Lithuanian in the following era? Austro-Hungarians might mean that if another Hungarian culture might be implemented eventually, it might be called Magyars.
     
  6. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

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    I hope so, by the way, two of them have damn interesting history in medieval era, and really emblematic clashes with some of the confirmed cultures. But I hope than if the name "Magyars" is chosen, it's anyway medieval Hungary which is represented, and not the semi-nomadic raiders period, which is less interesting IMHO
     
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  7. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    The semi-nomadic Magyars would count as a central asian culture though, and there are already so many medieval European ones.
     
  8. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

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    if I want additionnal semi-nomadic cultures, I prefer to go with Cumans, Kipchak, Tatars, Petchenegs, etc... IMO
    or Bulgarian, could be cool to have a reference to the transition from the Khanat to the feodality.
    Magyars informations are just too lite, and medieval Hungary have a rich history and again iconic clashes with confirmed cultures.
     
  9. Aquila SPQR

    Aquila SPQR Prince

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    What? "Expansionist aggressor"? Any arguments proving it? The biggest territorial gain was diplomatic (half of Duchy of Lithuania). Then minor expansion towards northern Baltic states and east against Muscovy. Most detailed map I've found:



    Nothing really big enough to justify being branded as "expansionist aggressor".

    Poles should most definitely be agrarian. For a long time Poland exported tonnes of grain to western Europe and had a lot of "folwark" estates. Also peasants were tied to the land and their lord and had to work on both their own fields and also on their lord's fields (this system survived up to XIX century). Just because Poles had the famous winged hussars and were the largest regional power back then doesn't mean it was any more "militaristic" than any other country.

    Also this barbican... why? Folwark was much more widespread and important to the country's economy.

    Oh, and the winged hussars on both artwork and 3D model are wrong. There was usually one wing only, attached to the saddle, not cuirass.

    So... it's cool there are Poles in the game, but the devs definitely could've researched the topic much better.
     
  10. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    Not so much about Poland exactly, but the "expansionist" concept in HK it's not only about the final size, but about how quick it a civ can expand and not only by military conquests (has an ability to take territories without wars).
     
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