Humankind - Maya discussion thread

[j51]

It would be nice if you guys were right. I'd also like to see a ballcourt or chinampa.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Just a couple of notes to previous:
1. The name 'Olmec' comes from a Nahuatl pair of words meaning, roughly, "People of Rubber" or "Rubber People", and they played the 'Mesoamerican Ballgame' also, so a ball court under whatever title could legitimately be an EQ for virtually any of the Meso Factions; Olmec, Mayan or Aztec.

2. The largest pyramid in the world by volume is Cholula, which was built early enough that it might be Olmec or Teotihuacan, but was also known to the Toltecs and Aztecs - and since it has now degraded to a large mound, it could be reconstructed as a 'large generic Mesoamerican pyramid' as a World Wonder or EQ

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

Another javelin unit? Really?? We could have had a blow gunner, archer, or atlatlist, but we get a "noble" variant of the Olmec EU? Very disappointed.

'Atlatl' is a Nahautl/Aztec word, and archery was just not used much in Meso-America. The atlatl-type throwing stick to extend range and velocity of javelins was in use as far back as the Olmec, but we have no idea what they called them. Hence, a lot of Javelins coming out of the early Americas in the game makes a certain amount of sense.

The real question is, IF the various Javelins are Ranged Units (almost a safe bet) how do they differ from 'ordinary' javelins (if there are any) or Archers (which almost have to be in the game as 'generic' Ancient or Classical Units).
Realistically, they should have shorter range than Archers, but might have a higher Ranged Factor from the impact of heavier javelins compared to arrows. Also, since it appears that ranged units cannot fire over other friendly units unless perched on top of a hill (based on videos) that makes ranged units potentially extremely vulnerable to a quick Melee/Mounted charge (as they were historically). Since a javelin is, by definition, when held instead of thrown a short sort of spear, Javelineers could realistically be given a higher Melee Factor than Archers so that they could survive such a charge and keep peppering the enemy with missile fire longer.

All speculation, of course - when are they going to show us some Combat Factors or a video of a full Battle?

The point I'm making is the Olmec and Maya EU seem so far indistinguishable. I want as much unit variety as possible. Where's the fun in upgrading from one javelin thrower to a better javelin thrower? What's to set this unit apart from a "transcended" Olmec javelin thrower? Even the visual design is almost identical.

Emblematic unit: Noble Javelineer?
By the way as far as I know poison wasnt a think on Mesoamerica, that was for the Amazon, Central Africa and Indonesia.

Indeed, I can’t find any evidence online that the Maya used poison-tipped spears, or weapons of any kind. It seems the range of the poison dart frog does not extend northwards enough to overlap with Maya territory.

I have talked to our in-house historian and the designers, and I can give you some answers regarding the Mayan Emblematic Unit now.

And as Boris points out, we did not find evidence of wide-spread use of archery in Meso-America during that period, but the sources we had generally described them as fighting with spears or javelins, so we opted for a Javelineer. On the use of drugs and poisons, our historian referred me to this research paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2173580814001527 and and there are theories that much later, the Aztec king Tizoc was poisoned, showing that Meso-American cultures had access to a variety of substances.

Our game designer responsible for combat told me that they had considered a blowgunner or an atlatl, but in the end this came down to Production Constraints: We did not have the resources to allocate to a full animation set that would be used for only one unit, and instead had to opt for a widely applicable “thrown weapon” animation. I know many of you will probably be disappointed by that answer, but resources are unfortunately finite.

Speaking personally on the distinction between the Olmec and the Mayan Emblematic units, the abilities of the two do make them play quite differently.

As far as the name of the unit is concerned, as Boris suspected we moved away from Atlalist because that was a Nahuatl word, and opted for the more general, modern (and to be localized) Javelineer instead of a “native language” name. The qualifier of calling them “Noble” was added as our sources say that during the classical period, Mayan warriors were largely drawn from the elite of their society.

that line of trees and 'park' like area outside the temple isnt that a common feature across a lot of districts we've seen? Correct me if I'm wrong but the emblematic quarters dont seem restricted in their design to have a certain layout like the generic districts too. I'm fairly sure that's not a EQ.

Yes, that particular pyramid is indeed not an Emblematic Quarter.

 

[j51]

I have talked to our in-house historian and the designers, and I can give you some answers regarding the Mayan Emblematic Unit now.

And as Boris points out, we did not find evidence of wide-spread use of archery in Meso-America during that period, but the sources we had generally described them as fighting with spears or javelins, so we opted for a Javelineer. On the use of drugs and poisons, our historian referred me to this research paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2173580814001527 and and there are theories that much later, the Aztec king Tizoc was poisoned, showing that Meso-American cultures had access to a variety of substances.

Our game designer responsible for combat told me that they had considered a blowgunner or an atlatl, but in the end this came down to Production Constraints: We did not have the resources to allocate to a full animation set that would be used for only one unit, and instead had to opt for a widely applicable “thrown weapon” animation. I know many of you will probably be disappointed by that answer, but resources are unfortunately finite.

Speaking personally on the distinction between the Olmec and the Mayan Emblematic units, the abilities of the two do make them play quite differently.

As far as the name of the unit is concerned, as Boris suspected we moved away from Atlalist because that was a Nahuatl word, and opted for the more general, modern (and to be localized) Javelineer instead of a “native language” name. The qualifier of calling them “Noble” was added as our sources say that during the classical period, Mayan warriors were largely drawn from the elite of their society.




Yes, that particular pyramid is indeed not an Emblematic Quarter.

Wow, thanks for all this awesome info! You guys really are on top of stuff. Waiting for this game gets harder and harder the more I learn about it!

 

[conorbebe]

Our game designer responsible for combat told me that they had considered a blowgunner or an atlatl, but in the end this came down to Production Constraints: We did not have the resources to allocate to a full animation set that would be used for only one unit, and instead had to opt for a widely applicable “thrown weapon” animation. I know many of you will probably be disappointed by that answer, but resources are unfortunately finite.

I can definitely understand production constraints being a limiting factor when it comes to unit choices and game mechanics, and I don’t claim to know any better than your artists and animators, but surely an atlatlist would use mostly the same animations? The concept of throwing a spear overarm at an enemy remains largely unchanged, the only difference being that an atlatlist uses an attachment to make the projectile travel further and with more force. They’re essentially extensions of the arm, so surely wouldn’t require an entire overhaul.

As far as the name of the unit is concerned, as Boris suspected we moved away from Atlalist because that was a Nahuatl word, and opted for the more general, modern (and to be localized) Javelineer instead of a “native language” name.

Spear-thrower or dart-thrower would work too. Perhaps rename the Olmec EQ to “Javelineer” and have the Maya EQ be called “Noble Spear-Thrower”. This way it sounds much more like a upgrade than a sidegrade.

I’m just trying to think of more ways to distinguish the two units. I feel like a lot of people would be put-off transitioning from the Olmecs to the Maya when they see both cultures have what appears on the surface to be identical Emblematic Units. The atlatl made for a formidable weapon, and has been been documented by Spanish invaders to have been able to pierce chain mail.

Thanks as always for your response! It’s really great to have this kind of insight into the decision-making that goes on behind the scenes

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

. . . Speaking personally on the distinction between the Olmec and the Mayan Emblematic units, the abilities of the two do make them play quite differently. . .

Since they are from different Eras, I'm going to make a SWAG and assume that, as in Civ VI, there is a distinct difference in Combat Factors even though the two are similar in their weaponry? For game-play, I would think there would almost have to be an Era-distinction between units, or there would be very little penalty in staying with the same Faction in later Eras.

 

[VermelhoRed]

Our game designer responsible for combat told me that they had considered a blowgunner or an atlatl, but in the end this came down to Production Constraints: We did not have the resources to allocate to a full animation set that would be used for only one unit, and instead had to opt for a widely applicable “thrown weapon” animation. I know many of you will probably be disappointed by that answer, but resources are unfortunately finite.

You know, I guess some people might not like to hear stuff like this (maybe?), but I really appreciate knowing the types of limitations that go into making games like this. It makes me grateful for what we have.

 

[Jcturmer]

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1223289993436848133?s=19

This twet says that "The Olmecs developed across Central America for centuries, offering a rich heritage to the Mesoamerican cultures that followed—such as the Mayans, Zapotecs and Aztecs."

Is it possible that the Zapotecs appeared in the Middle Age and the Aztecs in the early modern Era?

 

[need my speed]

Personally (but hey, I'm just one random human!), I vastly, vastly prefer emblematic units and quarters to be in the civilisation's native language. That gives more immersion to the game.
Further, as has been noted, having both 'Javelin Throwers' and 'Noble Javelineers' feels very odd. It's like having a 'Horseman' and a 'Heavy Horseman' - better would be 'Horseman' and 'Knight', for example.
I know that, for some cultures (e.g. Olmecs), we hardly know their language, so you're very limited there, of course. Assuming that no unit with 'javelin' in its name exists, 'Javelin Thrower' seems like a good idea to me. That, or something with an atlatl, as has been noted - I do not believe this would require a different animation than a generic spear-throwing unit (which I presume the 'Javelin Thrower' to be?), as it is just a lever mounted on a spear to throw it farther. But you would know better than I do, of course, so I'll take your word for it.

The point, I think, is that you'd want a name to feel unique and distinctive; instead of 'Archer', 'Elite Archer', and 'Superior Archer', you want 'Archer', 'Longbowman', and 'Crossbowman'.

So I looked up some Mayan words that might be of use, to replace 'Noble Javelineer'.
The Yucatec word for 'warrior' is 'Holkan', or 'Holcan'. The K'iche word for 'warrior' is 'Achij'. Both are Mayan people, and either of these words could work for a nicely immersive name, not? Perhaps 'Atlatl Holkan'?
I also found this, for extra inspiration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearthrower_Owl

As an aside, I really appreciate your detailed answers, and how you give us insight into your thoughts and visions. It's quite cool and remarkable, how you communicate with us here - so thank you!

 

[conorbebe]

So I looked up some Mayan words that might be of use, to replace 'Noble Javelineer'.
The Yucatec word for 'warrior' is 'Holkan', or 'Holcan'. The K'iche word for 'warrior' is 'Achij'. Both are Mayan people, and either of these words could work for a nicely immersive name, not? Perhaps 'Atlatl Holkan'?
I also found this, for extra inspiration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearthrower_Owl

So from what I can tell, this spear-thrower owl figure has been translated phonetically in one instance as "jatz'om kuh/kuy", meaning "striker owl" or "owl that will strike". Remove reference to the owl and we're left with "jatz'om", which may potentially give us a translation for spear-thrower, or at the very least, one who strikes others with a spear/javelin.

 

[need my speed]

So from what I can tell, this spear-thrower owl figure has been translated phonetically in one instance as "jatz'om kuh/kuy", meaning "striker owl" or "owl that will strike". Remove reference to the owl and we're left with "jatz'om", which may potentially give us a translation for spear-thrower, or at the very least, one who strikes others with a spear/javelin.

That is how I interpreted it as well, but I could not confirm it through a dictionary or such.

 

[SeelingCat]

So from what I can tell, this spear-thrower owl figure has been translated phonetically in one instance as "jatz'om kuh/kuy", meaning "striker owl" or "owl that will strike". Remove reference to the owl and we're left with "jatz'om", which may potentially give us a translation for spear-thrower, or at the very least, one who strikes others with a spear/javelin.

This website would appear to agree with you!

 

[Uberfrog]

It's worth noting also that atlatl is the Nahuatl word. I think in Yucatec the dart-thrower was called a hul'che (although it's difficult to google that in the UK without getting the scores for Hull v Chelsea!).

That said, I don't really mind having javelineers in two eras. It will be clear from context that the Mayan version is an upgrade from the Olmec, if you choose that path.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It's worth noting also that atlatl is the Nahuatl word. I think in Yucatec the dart-thrower was called a hul'che (although it's difficult to google that in the UK without getting the scores for Hull v Chelsea!).

While looking up names for a possible Civ unit I found the world "yaomitl" which to my understanding is also a Mayan word for "atlatl".
Though looking up "hul'che" does seem to work too.

(I recommend putting the word Maya after the word so you can find it easier because yaomitl by itself will go straight to Yahoo)
It's still was a lot easier to look up than names of possible infrastructures.

 

[conorbebe]

While looking up names for a possible Civ unit I found the world "yaomitl" which to my understanding is also a Mayan word for "atlatl".

I’m seeing yaomitl used more in reference to the dart itself, rather than the device used to throw it.

 

[VermelhoRed]

Sometimes it's better to have a name that's correct, even if not in the language of the civilisation, than try to grasp at finding a name in their language and end up with something that is not really it or doesn't make sense semantically.

 

[ehecatzin]

Man, Corona quarantine, teaching and freelancing was really a drain...I'm finally back...3 cultures later

I really like Amplitude's take on the Mayans, and kudos on the architecture and research, I really despise it when meso architecture is default always depicted with exposed mossy stone and vines. Mesos where absolutely obsesed with clean lines and bright colors.

I was expecting scientist, but honestly Builders fits them just as well, the Mayans were indeed massive builders, the Mayan area is it's own league when it comes to monumental architecture on the continent, both in size and numbers.

Yeah, it looks like the Aztec's EQ is also a big ol' pyramid: https://medias.games2gether.com/forums/the-cat-o-nine-tales/FF03Emblematics.jpg

That looks as generic as they come, Aztec architecture is very iconic, considering the excelent Job they've done so far with mesoamerican research, I'd be quite dissapointed if that was the quarter.

It would be nice if you guys were right. I'd also like to see a ballcourt or chinampa.

I'm sincerily hoping for Chinampa quarter, Ball courts were a shared feature across all of mesoamerica, western Mexico, and even Arizona, If anything whatever entertainment district we get could have a mesoamerican "skin" featuring a ballcourt, and It would be fine.

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1223289993436848133?s=19

This twet says that "The Olmecs developed across Central America for centuries, offering a rich heritage to the Mesoamerican cultures that followed—such as the Mayans, Zapotecs and Aztecs."

Is it possible that the Zapotecs appeared in the Middle Age and the Aztecs in the early modern Era?

That would honestly be incredible, and it would give us a more complete meso tree, let's not forget the Aztecs conquest happened during the renaissance (early modern in humankind terms) and It's not like they dissapeared from one day to the next, curious fact, Spain pretty much mantained the Aztec system of tribute for a few decades until it managed to reform the whole system into the Viceroyalty, and Nahua warriors were used extensively to conquer the rest of Mexico.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

That looks as generic as they come, Aztec architecture is very iconic, considering the excelent Job they've done so far with mesoamerican research, I'd be quite dissapointed if that was the quarter.

There are numerous Emblematic Quarters (though I accidentally cut one off at the right edge) and City Centers in that image, but the little brown pyramid with the tree-framed plaza in front decidedly is not one of them.

 

[Zaarin]

I’m seeing yaomitl used more in reference to the dart itself, rather than the device used to throw it.

Yaomitl looks distinctly Nahuatl to me. I can't claim to be familiar with every Mayan language, but the major ones don't have tl.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yaomitl looks distinctly Nahuatl to me. I can't claim to be familiar with every Mayan language, but the major ones don't have tl.

It could be but I'm not 100%. Although thanks to @Uberfrog for discovering the word hul'che which seems to be the word I was looking for instead of yaomitl anyway.