Humankind - Spanish discussion thread

[Eagle Pursuit]

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1298296714466648064?s=09

Emblematic unit: Conquistador
Emblematic Quarter: Catedral Gotica

Affinity: Expansionist

 

[Siptah]

Expansion & religion, there we are, just as expected for early modern Spain. Omitting the Spanish would have been an absolute no-go. This means definitely no Portuguese. I like that the card is really focussing on the expansionist affinity.

 

[Narcisse]

I crossed my fingers so hard to have something else than Conquistadors, like the Caracole which won our "Spanish EU poll" on discord ahaha. But I suppose they are too emblematic and can get a "fun" passive (being stronger versus units from anterior tech ? I'm really curious).
Cool art and personally, I know the EQ will be polemic, some poeple seems to don't like having workship places as EQ, but damn, Spanish cities will be georgeous with these gothic cathedrals.

 

[BuchiTaton]

I know many people are tired of the "American Conquest" trope of Spanish design, but if Humankind already made Spain expansionist+conquistador why they didnt used the spanish Misión or the Presidio with some effect about *stability/loyalty/conversion* to have better synergy with the rest of their design. I mean the Catedral Gótica is something more about proper Spain but I feel it somekind of forced and pointless,it have unique style but what about their unique function?

Even more, why not save this spanish Gothic catedral for a possible medieval Castillian culture? Dont a Churrigueresque catedral fit better for spanish early modern?

 

[Narcisse]

You answered to your own question. They already have the conquest trope with expansionist + conquistador, so they don't need to expand this aspect of the culture with an expansionist EQ, or an expansionist LT (I hope the legacy trait will be about something else personally, their naval hegemony for exemple).

To be fair all catholic europeans with oversea territories builded missions (French, Portuguese, etc...) : Franciscans, Jesuits, Dominicans, and Augustinians orders didn't have borders.
And in term of architecture, it's almost "inexistant", it's just a little church, with dormitories and plantations. I suspect than Missions will be a generic feature for religion system. We have already seen inquisitioned city in a screenshot.

+ we have seen a sort of south american monestary in a screenshot about an industrial culture.

I would like to have Castillan culture, but I'm really not sure they were expected.

 

[ehecatzin]

Not gonna lie, I'm dissapointed about the Conquistador, I'd rather have the Tercio be the unique unit, they dominated europe during the Spanish golden age.

And it would have been really cool to see Tercios use the tactical combat of humankind. Hopefully the conquistadors have some unique flavour to make them interesting.

 

[BuchiTaton]

You answered to your own question. They already have the conquest trope with expansionist + conquistador, so they don't need to expand this aspect of the culture with an expansionist EQ, or an expansionist LT (I hope the legacy trait will be about something else personally, their naval hegemony for exemple).

You are dodging my question. Conquistadores help you to conquer, but after that an emblematic quarter that actually have something to do with the pacification and conversion of the conquered territories make more sense that a cathedral with some anachronic fancy style.

The design are supposed to be gameplay practical and historically intuitive. Conquistador+Misión is the same as conquer > assimilate. Even more Misiones/Reducciones/Presidios could be placed as outposts far from cities, while the Gothic cathedral add nothing but be "different".

I hope the legacy trait will be about something else personally, their naval hegemony for exemple.

Spanish naval hegemony make more sense if is implemented on another way, considering that this is supposed to be a LEGACY, and historically naval tradition is not something you could see as a "legacy" on any of the former spanish colonies (Philippines were sea oriented before Spain by obvious reasons). Something related to asthete make more sense and is event less expansionist related that naval bonus.

To be fair all catholic europeans with oversea territories builded missions (French, Portuguese, etc...) : Franciscans, Jesuits, Dominicans, and Augustinians orders didn't have borders.

If Mision is generic (like if cathedral are not even more common for any european nation that a mission) you still call name it Presidio or Reducción. And again if must be a cathedral why ¿Gótica?, that style fit better medieval time and was not something you find on both Spain and the colonies. Meanwhile Churrigueresco style is spanish and from the colonial time period.

And about mission from other nations, we all know who are the country better know by their missionary work, or was not the Guaranis, Omaguas and Arawaks taking refuge from portuguese slave traders?
Just by doing a quick search about spanish, portuguese and french missions we can see the difference on the kind of legacy and relevance we are talking about.

And in term of architecture, it's almost "inexistant", it's just a little church, with dormitories and plantations. I suspect than Missions will be a generic feature for religion system. We have already seen inquisitioned city in a screenshot.

+ we have seen a sort of south american monestary in a screenshot about an industrial culture.

This is not stopping other EQ like the "Three sisters field", that is not unique to Iroquois, it is a earlier mesoamerican system that was already more complex and productive on mesoamerican forms like the Milpa and Chinampa.

Also you are pointed these Misiones to be religion+protection+production, there is where the mix of Misión/Presidio/Reducción make more sense. They are frontier instalations with functions to conversion, garrison and production. This is way more usefull and flavored than a cathedral.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

The Conquistadore seems to be an infantry unit which is different from its depiction in other games that come to mind like Civ 6 and Age of Empires 2. No suprises but still a solid looking culture!

 

[mitsho]

They can always add Tercios later on, the conquistadores were kinda a must after all, because...

... this time it‘s turned around If you recognize during Classical and Medieval era that you are in a good position to expand to other continents overseas, THEN you will chose the Spanish in the Early Modern. That role could have been takeon over by another culture, but everybody(tm) knows that the Spanish did that, so it‘s a shorthand that new players don‘t have to look up. They know instinctively: If I want to go to America to beat up the Aztecs (but sadly not the Inca), I gotta chose Spain.

And that‘s the beauty of the Humankind system: Ideally, the map and the game so far determine whether you will chose the Spanish. It will also mean that - barring an incompetent AI - the Conquistadors WILL be used as they will be useful to whoever choses them.

As for the Gothic Cathedrals - I had to think of the book/tv series La Catedral del Mar - and I can see them fit. A mission would also not be put in a core city, meaning they would be a strange fit as they are in civ by the way. For overseas cities sure - but in Spain proper? And not even necessarily cities, the mission is rather an outpost kind of infrastructure, no?

Also, the Spanish started building Gothic Cathedrals in their colonized lands. I quickly looked it up: Mexico-City started it in 1573, Cuzco 1560, Lima 1604 and so on. Sure, they are not all Gothic Cathedrals, but the Spanish certainly built big churches...

And again, a very colourful and nice culture card. It reminds me a bit of the title card of the game „settlers 2“, but I guess that‘s just a standard depiction of Columbus setting foot in India.

 

[Siptah]

Don‘t forget that making the Spanish mainland the most catholic of all kingdoms is a defining trait of early modern Spain. A mission EQ would not refer to this.

 

[Guandao]

I've not much to add here, its design is what I expected.

 

[BuchiTaton]

As for the Gothic Cathedrals - I had to think of the book/tv series La Catedral del Mar - and I can see them fit. A mission would also not be put in a core city, meaning they would be a strange fit as they are in civ by the way. For overseas cities sure - but in Spain proper? And not even necessarily cities, the mission is rather an outpost kind of infrastructure, no?

You said it, people is supposed to choose Spanish to expand their empires, and Conquistadores are supposed to help with that, but they also look pretty odd fighting on your homeland.
Like Conquistadores, the Misiones/Presidios/Reducciones are usefull to expand and consolidate.

Also about odd looking things, would be funny if you play Spanish after be/conquered the Aztecs and keep their Sacrificial Altars, sure Spanish would love to keep those on their cities for their bonus.

Also, the Spanish started building Gothic Cathedrals in their colonized lands. I quickly looked it up: Mexico-City started it in 1573, Cuzco 1560, Lima 1604 and so on. Sure, they are not all Gothic Cathedrals, but the Spanish certainly built big churches...

So, why sould be Gothic? That style is better for medieval time and it is not exclusive to Spain. The cathedral on the EQ picture do not look distinctive, this is more Spanish like

Spoiler Santiago de Copostela :

:

 

[BuchiTaton]

Don‘t forget that making the Spanish mainland the most catholic of all kingdoms is a defining trait of early modern Spain. A mission EQ would not refer to this.

How a Mission operated by Catholic Holy Orders whose point is convert to Catholicism the native population is not something defining the most catholic nation?

It is catholic, spanish emblematic, gameplay wise, synergic, intuitive, practical and mechanic unique it is built on the frontiers unlike most EQ.

Dont all the other "less catholic" nations build Gothic cathedrals? If missions are not exclusive to Spain, cathedrals are less unique by far.

 

[Siptah]

How a Mission operated by Catholic Holy Orders whose point is convert to Catholicism the native population is not something defining the most catholic nation?

Actually, no it isn't. Being the most catholic country was about purification (of christianity), not about conversion of natives. It's more of a quality than a quantity thing.

We probably disagree on the mission vs. cathedral, but I think it is actually nice that Spain is not reduced to the New World holdings. Curious what the legacy bonus will be.

 

[Narcisse]

@BuchiTaton Sorry but I just don't like the Missions in the same way I don't like the Conquistadores. I don't like the moral purpose of them. So I'm happy they go with something else for the quarter. But I'm disapointed for the Conquistador. + imo Missions are so generic than they can possibly be part of the religion gameplay, we already seen inquisition so. Or remember the demanded Hamlet as English EQ, which is finally a generic quarter

For the Legacy Trait, it was just a suggestion, we just don't know. Yes something about aesthete/influence is possible, or about stability, or about science ? we just don't know. It's just stats and abstract. Norse have +3 str on naval units, they were never good in naval warfare so.

About Tercio, I suspect spainish generic units looking like Tercio. I would really prefer like discord people the Caracole, A ranged cavalry unit for Early Modern would have been really unique. ( I don't think there is any generic ranged cavalry in the game).
Their tactics looks so cool
( their "snail" formation )
( their tactic)
(their equipment)

About the model of the Catedral Gotica EQ, it seems to be based on Leon Cathedral : The term Plateresque was first used in 1539 by the Spanish writer Cristóbal de Villalón, who compared the richly decorated facade of León Cathedral to the work of a goldsmith. Plateresque is really spainish, a really smart choice if it is really based on Leon Cathedral.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Actually, no it isn't. Being the most catholic country was about purification (of christianity), not about conversion of natives. It's more of a quality than a quantity thing.

We probably disagree on the mission vs. cathedral, but I think it is actually nice that Spain is not reduced to the New World holdings. Curious what the legacy bonus will be.

Seriously?

Navites are less quality?
Dont souls have the same value?
And how built big sumptuous building purify?

Privilege the use of money and effort on a big shiny building over spread The Word of God and the salvation of souls is by far the less christian thing I hear today.

 

[BuchiTaton]

I would really prefer like discord people the Caracole, A ranged cavalry unit for Early Modern would have been really unique. ( I don't think there is any generic ranged cavalry in the game).

It is seems that on game Conquistadors would be somekind of infantry/explorer unit, but they could have been also a ranged cavalry unit. I mean most conquitadores do not used horses, but did Amplitude forget that the popular idea of the superiority Conquistador is Gun+Iron+Horse?

About the model of the Catedral Gotica EQ, it seems to be based on Leon Cathedral : The term Plateresque was first used in 1539 by the Spanish writer Cristóbal de Villalón, who compared the richly decorated facade of León Cathedral to the work of a goldsmith. Plateresque is really spainish, a really smart choice if it is really based on Leon Cathedral.

The problem is that the Catedral de Léon is more generic and medieval looking that many other examples of spanish cathedrals. That make their EQ less emblematic/unique.

 

[Narcisse]

precisely hehe, in a way it became emblematic of Spain because in France and Italy the renaissance style developed when the Spaniards continued to build Gothic cathedrals

 

[Siptah]

Seriously?

Navites are less quality?

In the eyes of 16th Century Spaniards, pretty sure. Not that I would agree. Just have a look at how the Spanish administered their colonies/viceroyalties: Priests, as all officials, needed to be born in mainland Spain. People born overseas weren‘t valued much, except if they spent considerable time in the mainland, much less the natives.

And of course it‘s not the building per se that purified religion, but it stands for what happened: forcing non-christians to leave the country, building up the inquisition to make sure that Christians follow a certain (Spanish) Catholicism, cutting down the influence of the pope and transferring a lot of his power to the king, providing the base for the counter-reformation and it‘s most effective weapons (the jesuits).

 

[Krajzen]

Gorgeous image, deserved expansionist, awesome cathedral quarter.

I am slightly disappointed by them not getting Galleon or Tercio, some real emblematic military units from this period. Conquistadors were not really established military units... I think Tercio was not considered because of its innate unbalance - its basically "a musketman and also ani cavalry in the same time". And Galleon may be a generic naval unit, for example.