[GS] Hungary Discussion Thread

[acluewithout]

Requiring resources for UUs might be positive overall. For example, I currently just can’t play Rome because those Legions are just so crazy powerful. And that’s mostly because those Legions don’t need resources. If the did, that would be a nice nerf to Rome while still leaving them heaps of fun.

I’m also curious whether other units will now require resources that didn’t before - eg infantry (oil maybe) and frigates (iron?).

The AI is going to need some cheats and buffs to cope with all this though.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Having no resource requirement at least allows each Civ to be able to build the unique unit that was specifically designed for them. To change that so they now require resources could potentially leave some Civs unable to do so. It could be argued that would break "immersion", but more specifically would put Civs that cannot build their UUs at a disadvantage to those that can. Not to mention it seems like a waste of design resources.

 

[acluewithout]

Having no resource requirement at least allows each Civ to be able to build the unique unit that was specifically designed for them. To change that so they now require resources could potentially leave some Civs unable to do so. It could be argued that would break "immersion", but more specifically would put Civs that cannot build their UUs at a disadvantage to those that can. Not to mention it seems like a waste of design resources.

Yeah, I’d thought that and don’t disagree. But it might still end up being a good change overall.

 

[sonicmyst]

Or, if Firaxis tweaked the spawn of resources so that civs' UU will have no problem finding that resource.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Yeah, I’d thought that and don’t disagree. But it might still end up being a good change overall.

Granted this is anecdotal, but I tried requiring resources for UUs in one of my early Civ VI mods and it ended up being as I described, with some Civs never being able to build their UUs. Same thing happened years back when I was heavily modding Civ III - it was a disaster for the AI. From a logical standpoint, yes it makes sense to require resources, but for gameplay I think it's better to not require them. Or, if it is implemented at least allow for a significant discount in resource costs.

Or, if Firaxis tweaked the spawn of resources so that civs' UU will have no problem finding that resource.

I think that'd be difficult to accomplish on random maps with any kind of consistency.

 

[Stomper66]

Another civ is going to have to be very badly designed for Hungary to not be the last civ I play from the new expansion.

Eleanor enters the room

It's a good start I really like the look of Hungary. To me they don't look like a warmongering domination civ though. The UUs are good but they don't look strong enough to invade civs like Greece, Scythia, Rome and Russia on a Real World map, and light cavalry can easily be counted with spearmen and pikemen. To me they look more like a civ who will use an army of elite light cavalry to fight alongside levied city states to fight defensive wars, liberate conquered cities and complete missions. This should make them a strong candidate for a new diplomatic victory, and the money that you earn from missions and save from not supporting a large standing army could be used to patronage great people. Having a large empire also doesn't look suited to them as their fast districts and amenities would encourage me to build few cities that are high in amenities and population. But overall the UUs, abilities and music seem great!

I really don't like the design of the leader though he looks too much like Alexander but with different clothes. I also don't like the background image I feel as though they're being a bit lazy with this now and you can see the decline in detail compared to the original backgrounds (eg compare England and Egypts background to say Scotlands and Hungarys. Mattias is a great character but I would have preferred it if they had made him a more of a dark, smouldering character (After all this guy was Draculas boss.) I really like this image so i'll put it here to give people more of an impression of what I mean.

 

[acluewithout]

Granted this is anecdotal, but I tried requiring resources for UUs in one of my early Civ VI mods and it ended up being as I described, with some Civs never being able to build their UUs. Same thing happened years back when I was heavily modding Civ III - it was a disaster for the AI. From a logical standpoint, yes it makes sense to require resources, but for gameplay I think it's better to not require them. Or, if it is implemented at least allow for a significant discount in resource costs.

I think that'd be difficult to accomplish on random maps with any kind of consistency.

There might be a discount. And we also don’t know how Encampments will work.

I do think the game will be poorer if Civs can’t build their uniques - particularly the AI. Part of the fun is the AI turning up with its special units.

But I also like the idea of having some sort of unit cap, and it looks like resources might do that for some units. It would defeat the purpose if unique just ignored resource requirements.

Hopefully FXS have figured this out...

...but, you know, I’m still salty about horses becoming ninja horses that hide on the map until you promise to be their Husband...

I’m a man of petty grudges.

 

[Myomoto]

I like the ‘Black Army’ visually and their concept.

One question though: How is this ...

... unit seriously considered light cavalry?
With all that armor and metal for protection it must weight tons.

Successional UUs are a great introduction for sure.
But is this light cavalry line the right place to do so?

Oh ... and by the way, I have a concern regarding the follow-up ‘Huszár’ as well (or actually the first real concern, as the above is purely visual).
How possible will obtaining those power-spending alliances be at all, when playing Hungary as warmonger?
At least in R&F, when reaching the industrial era, every (remaining) civ hates me for being a warmonger and most definitely doesn’t want to allie with me.
This unit’s usefulness might rise or fall with the new warmonger system and the upcoming diplomatic toolset.
If it will be possible to keep at least some friends despite intensive conquering, the Huszár might be a worthwhile UU.
Otherwise the Civ’s intended combat orientated play style and their one UU’s design seem to be mutual exclusive.

You just need to pick your targets right. Hungary looks like it's set up for mid-game Domination towards a Diplomatic Victory later. If you take cities away from Civs that have captured city states, you can easily offset some of the warmongering (which is not even a mechanic anymore in GS) by liberating their occupied city states (conveniently giving you a bunch of envoys at the same time). Secondly, as long as you're mainly fighting another warmonger, it's easy to get other civs to do joint declarations of war, which will lower your warmongering penalties.

Hungary's playstyle seems to basically be the "world police". Find targets everybody else hates, knock them down a peg, while scoring a nice advantage for yourself, and take good care of your city states to keep a potential huge global army ready whenever you need to respond somewhere.

I'm a big fan, as this is typically the playstyle I will go for. Find neighbors with easy to satisfy agendas (I LOVE Cleopatra on my continent), cultivate a good relationship, and then take out the "problem child" of the continent (looking at you Alex and Monty...) together and start harvesting the benefits of alliances.

 

[King of Prussia]

if memory serves, most if not all UU in the ancient or classical era do not require resources to build, as you would have to rely on RNG to get them otherwise. and because it is so early in the game, you are not as flexible compared to mid to late game when it comes to finding and getting new resources. Personally i am happy with the way it is now. I would rather be or face a rome that has their legions than not.

 

[Haig]

Is there some historical reference to the bonus strenght Huddar get from alliances?

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Hungary's playstyle seems to basically be the "world police".

This!
And use their ability mainly for defense - (including defending CS) and go for diplomacy win maybe culture (extra tourism from Thermal Bath, district discounts)

 

[Lord Lakely]

I'd say the Thermal Bath was included for two reasons 1) It's a nice way to provide a bonus to the Geothermal Fissure (which can't be improved until the endgame and is otherwise just a tile blocker, like the reef) 2) It allows Hungary to go wide through expansion without completely crippling their economy. +4 Amenities and production equal to 2/3rds of a factory in MULTIPLE cities just thanks to one building is, I repeat, an insane bonus. Hungary can also get it at a -33% discount if they built it directly across a river. Scotland is bald from all the wig snatching that occured here.

 

[Myomoto]

Keep in mind resources are more of a commodity now. You can buy a bunch of iron for building swordsmen, then invade the civ that sold it to you to take their mines

 

[Vizurok]

Is there some historical reference to the bonus strenght Huddar get from alliances?

Meh, not really. I mean, you can find some reasoning if you want to , but there's no absolutely correct answer, so I would be leaning to the answer that it was a gameplay mechanics-forced decision (to allow Hungary to act as world police). However, if you want to strech it, there's some historic background here. Hungary as an independent kingdom was defeated by the Ottomans in the 16th century and after that, the Hungarian Crown was carried forward by the Habsburgs, who have granted various levels of self-government to the Hungarians through time. Naturally, we had quite a few rebellions against the Habsburg rule which resulted in a series of deadly clashes that usually involved large numbers of Hussars. As these rebellions usually faded out after a few years, lots of soldiers went exile and served as Hussars in foreign countries, thus establishing the tradition of Hussar regiments in almost all European countries. The exile Hussar leaders usually stayed loyal to the case and were actively trying to form alliances with the foreign countries (preferrably with the enemies of Austria) during and after rebellions (France in the 18th century, Italy in the late 19th century), of course, with little luck.

 

[Morningcalm]

Interesting civ even if the lack of bonuses to gaining sovereignty likely makes some of their levy based bonuses rather rare to see in practice.

Bah, they made Matthias Corvinus handsome. He wasn't quite so in real life. At least they got the armor right. It's clear his appearance is based on a certain statue, but this representation lacks the stern appearance of that statue and keeps the elevated cheekbones and more handsome appearance.

 

[nzcamel]

Actually though... this brings up another question. Up till now in Civ VI, the unique units never cost strategic resources. With the change in the resource model, this may have changed.

Requiring resources for UUs might be positive overall. For example, I currently just can’t play Rome because those Legions are just so crazy powerful. And that’s mostly because those Legions don’t need resources. If the did, that would be a nice nerf to Rome while still leaving them heaps of fun.

I’m also curious whether other units will now require resources that didn’t before - eg infantry (oil maybe) and frigates (iron?).

The AI is going to need some cheats and buffs to cope with all this though.

Yeah, I think all UU's should require the same resources as the unit they replace.

I do think the game will be poorer if Civs can’t build their uniques - particularly the AI. Part of the fun is the AI turning up with its special units.

But I also like the idea of having some sort of unit cap, and it looks like resources might do that for some units. It would defeat the purpose if unique just ignored resource requirements.

​

Having no resource requirement at least allows each Civ to be able to build the unique unit that was specifically designed for them. To change that so they now require resources could potentially leave some Civs unable to do so. It could be argued that would break "immersion", but more specifically would put Civs that cannot build their UUs at a disadvantage to those that can. Not to mention it seems like a waste of design resources.

As opposed to what? Any Civ that cannot build unit X is at a disadvantage. I'm next to Rome and there's no iron around!? They're getting their suped up swordsmen anyway; yet I can get my plain swordsmen that might save me! I don't understand why UU's should be exempted from resource requirements their plain counterparts endure.
Most of the time most Civ's will be able to build their UU (unless it's a tank replacement... heh heh). And if they can't; it's probably for the best.

I also don't like the background image I feel as though they're being a bit lazy with this now and you can see the decline in detail compared to the original backgrounds (eg compare England and Egypts background to say Scotlands and Hungarys.

They've been a bit all over the show with the backgrounds. I remember thinking that about Jadwiga's (the very first DLC) background - it was very meh compared to the Vanilla Civ's. So I don't know that that is a new thing. Then some later ones have been beautiful.

 

[local_hero]

Requiring resources for UUs might be positive overall. For example, I currently just can’t play Rome because those Legions are just so crazy powerful. And that’s mostly because those Legions don’t need resources. If the did, that would be a nice nerf to Rome while still leaving them heaps of fun.

I’m also curious whether other units will now require resources that didn’t before - eg infantry (oil maybe) and frigates (iron?).

The AI is going to need some cheats and buffs to cope with all this though.

It's possible that unique units will use less strategic resources than the unit it replaces though. It's a difficult balancing act that. Rome in civ 5 was so weak and without identity if they couldn't get access to iron.

Rome in civ6 is less dependent on the Legion though because their other strengths are better but yeah. You want to use your uniqes.

 

[AriochIV]

My hope is that they will change the resource distribution so that small amounts of key resources are evenly distributed across the map, making strategic resources a management issue rather than a hit-or-miss lottery. Granted that this is easier said than done, but if they can do it, they might be able to return resource requirements to UU's.

In this new resource-consumption model, resource-free UU's are going to be ridiculously overpowered.

 

[Disgustipated]

I have the feeling that only the upgraded UU will require resources, not the 1st uu. The expectation is you use your first UU to acquire those resources. Perhaps they thought that because one UU upgrades into another UU, that maybe it would be too powerful, and should require resources. I would be surprised if they required resources for all uu's now. But we'll find out in the first look tomorrow. With the redesign of how strategic resources work, they could have changed the requirements.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

This is probably a better discussion to be had in the main GS thread, but one other point I would make is that unless every unit will now require resources I see it being imbalanced since not every UU replaces a unit that requires a resource. In other words, why would a Roman Legion (Swordsman replacement) require iron, while say a Nubian Pitati Archer or a Greek Hoplite (Archer & Spearman replacements respectively) not. UUs should be equally available to every Civ without requirement constraints.

Perhaps they thought that because one UU upgrades into another UU, that maybe it would be too powerful, and should require resources.

I did have the thought that this resource cost from UU to UU might also have been a result of the new resource system where it might have been too complicated to code an exemption for this niche case.