Hungary

[Creativus]

With War Wagon I meant the Wagon fort what Hunyadi used quite often.

I will check the forum and also open up a thread here, to start discussing the civs with historical traits and units/buildings. I haven't started creating the maps, as there are lots of other things to do and alone it is not easy .

Currently I have these working civs, but in case of Matthias I still to make an unique building and the trait is not special yet.
For Árpád the UB is currently Yurt (haven't got better idea) and the UU is the Magyar horsearcher.

 

[cool3a2]

Hmmm... seems like this is one of the lacks of knowledges I mentioned earlier. I found these wagon forts mentioned, but no picture and it's hard to imagine something. I could think of wagons positioned to form a defense line. You don't accidently have a picture by hand? If I'm right, I couldn't think of a unit that it could replace. It's true that I don't know much anout civ5 though, so I currently have civ4 units in mind.

I will check the forum and also open up a thread here, to start discussing the civs with historical traits and units/buildings. I haven't started creating the maps, as there are lots of other things to do and alone it is not easy .

I know what you mean. I developed the Magyar Mod for civ4 for years. Although I successfully requested a bunch of art, I planned and updated the mod pretty alone for quite a while and even did some art by my own. Luckily, avain made a Varietas Delectat Hungary module and we could and did cooperate. I believe we can do the same here as there will be stuff that will be useful for both projects. For instance, you could create an István vs. Koppány scenario. In this case, you could use the István leaderhead as well. Similarily, we could use some art for this project that you might request as well. Also, maybe you'll find a companion. Nitram might be interested, I don't know. Would be pretty cool, if nitram and you would work on these scenarios, while I and kabcsi work on this mod. Ah... it's planned to convert all the buildings from the civ4 mod for this one as far as they can be used. There is, for example a végvar. I already uploaded it as fbx on the hungarian forum (this mods thread). It should be possible to open it in nexus and then export it to granny. Should be pretty easy. I have no nexus either, but you could download the fbx and give it a go, if you want. Also, if you have civ4, you are free to load and install the civ4 mod and see what else you could need. If you do, make sure you load the beta (read the description stored in the civfanatics civ4 download database section thread).

Again, I'd say that végvár would give a good unique building for Corvinus. The trait should influence either culture or military (I believe Hungary reached it's greatest extension under his reign and he was successful in fighting the turks).

Árpáds ub and uu sound good to me. His trait should be something 'from the arrows of the Magyars save us oh lord.' Again, there are a couple of yurt buildings for civ4 that could be converted. The Magyar mod uses an entire cityset with yurts and there is the ub of the Mongols and of my Hun Mod and a couple of more things in GeoModders mod. Maybe you find something better then these one day, but for now, I'd stay with these.

 

[Creativus]

Here is a picture about the wagon fort (szekérvár), although not the best:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wagenburg.jpg

Hunyadi learnt the usage of this from the hussites, and in case of the Mongol invasion the Hungarian forces used that also, although not very effectively.

Basically wagons linked together and formed into a circle so that it can be defended easily. There were small canons , soldiers with pikes, muskets and crossbows on it. In civ4 I think it can be created because as far as I remember the settlers had wagons as graphics. In civ5 I am not sure, but what it would require is to mix the graphics from the musketman, pikeman crossbowman etc and import the wagon animations from civ4.

Would be good to work together on Hungarian mods , tomorrow I am going to register to the forum you mentioned earlier, and hopefully I can upload some mods by then .

 

[cool3a2]

Ah, thanks for the info. Once again, the civilization modding community taught me things about hungarian history

Converting civ4 units is triggy in contrast to convert buildings. The reason is the animation. Civ5 uses more animation spots than civ4 does. For some of the units action, there would be no an imation, hence would need to be created. I guess this is possible or maybe an animation from a civ5 unit could be 'transplanted'. But it is not that easy. Therefor, taking over only animations from civ4 will be similar triggy. Look at the civ4 community, there are a lot of capable modders and impressive user-made units. Sooner or later, this will be the case for civ5. Maybe someone invents a user-friendly solution for the animation problem, but for now, I think we should concentrate on buildings and on requesting the István leaderhead. I could speak to Ekmek to start an official request. I personally have a pretty good idea of how he could look like, but I don't want to force anything. Especially since kabcsi didn't say a single word about it yet. I'll wait some days, then I'll write him a pm. He's a pro if it's about history (don't want to mention too much details here), so his opinion is pretty important to me.

Would be good to work together on Hungarian mods , tomorrow I am going to register to the forum you mentioned earlier, and hopefully I can upload some mods by then .

That's really good news!

 

[mihaszna]

I am currently finalizing the civilopedia entries for Árpád and Louis I, but these are the leaders currently for whom I am looking for help:

1) Charles I (Károly Róbert)
and ideas on the rebel lords would be great also

2) John Hunyadi (Hunyadi János)
-for unit I was thinking of a strong cavalry unit (with a new promotion for mounted units) and warwagon but for this there are no graphics, so probably something else will be ok.

3) Sigismund of Luxembourg (Luxemburgi Zsigmond)
(I would like to give him bonuses to build fortifications, maybe even a free unit/ castle)

4) Béla IV
Maybe a faster worker unit (which can build improvements faster) and cheaper , but stronger wall, this is to reflect how fast Hungary could recover from the Mongol Invasion.

5) Matthias Corvinus
Black Army as unique unit for sure . Something needed as trait and as building.

Hi!

I can't really imagine why create a lot of leaders if there is not even one ... I could give you some advise though, since I studied history on the university

I think Sigmund of Luxembourg and Charles I (aka Charles Robert) are not that good of choice. They rule was quite significant, but also really boring.

Charles Robert could have a scenario like how he siezed the trown, but then he and Sigmund also was more of a financial ruler. (After Sigmund became the kaiser of the german-roman empire he not really cared about the Hungarian Kingdom anymore)

For the rebels (more of warlords than rebels): Máté Csák, Amadé Aba, László Kán and maybe Borsa Kopasz

I defenitaly switch Sigmund to II. Ferenc Rákóczi

 

[mihaszna]

John Hunyadi (if you use Hunyadi than you should use Matthias Hunyadi Corvinus for Hunyadi Mátyás) war wagons were huszita warwagons so you should look up Jan Husz for some artwork

Matthias Corvinus ub should be some kind of a renessaince palace, since he was well known for his renessaince household in Visegrad. He defenitely should have some cultural bonus, since he not battled really big enemies ... he secured his position and made a great army, but it was peace time then in Europe.

John Hunyadi should get végvár since he was the one who hold the Ottomans at Nándorfehérvár (Belgrade) in 1456. He also died there after he got pest (plague) from the unburied corps after the battle. The bell at noon is in his memory.

For Árpád the ub could be some kind of a modified temple The Yurt of the Saman

 

[mihaszna]

I think you should adress your questions here, since there are not too many traffic in this topic so it's wouldn't be confusing.

I have a lot of ideas but I not really in to moding, and without anybody doing moding or art work at the moment the ideas are kind of a brainstorming.

I would advise cool3a2 to modify the first reply in this topic to gather the ideas there

So we could see there the mainstream new civilization ideas and collect other ideas so when the real work starts we have everything

For the main Hungarian Civilization we have
St. Stephen I as ruler
The valley of plenty as a trait - +1 food after every bonus resource
Hussar as a uu - replaces cavalry, +1 movement, can move after attack, +30% bonus vs gunpowder units

the ub or another uu is in limbo at the moment

ub could be Végvár (it would be like Mughal Fort at the Indian Civ) or could be Wellness Center (a hospital that makes culture and gold)

another uu could be the horse archer (with reflex bow)


the other leaders could be

Árpád
trait - The Arrows of the Magyars - +50% bonus on archer units range attack
uu - the above mentioned horse archer
ub - the Yurt of the Saman - a temple that generates happiness

St. Laszlo I (I think thats more appropriate name, since everybody knows that Laszlo is a name)
trait - Defender of the Faith - +50% bonus against barbarians

John Hunyadi
trait - Lion on the warfield - +50% attack bonus
uu - war wagons - +50% defense bonus
ub - the above mentioned végvár

Matthias Corvinus de genere Hunyadi
trait - the Noble Mind - golden age generates 50% faster
uu - black army solder - generates great general faster
ub - Rennasaince Household - a Colosseum that generates gold

Charles Robert
trait - Strict Finances - some kind of financial trait
uu -
ub -

Franz Rákóczi II
trait - Nationhood - the building maintainance should be really cheap
uu - the above mentioned Hussars
ub - some kind of printing press (or maybe Wineyard - since the Rákóczi family got they money from Wine smuggling toward Poland)

 

[cool3a2]

I would advise cool3a2 to modify the first reply in this topic to gather the ideas there

Sure, I will, but most probably only next weekend, because of rare time during the week. And of course, you can ask your questions here, only on the hungarian forum, I'd prefer it if you'd start an own thread.

Rákóczi is in deed a good idea as another scenario as well as Kossuth would be. Still, mihaszna is right, you should concentrate on a couple of things, instead of extending your plans too fast. If you don't, you might get frustrated because you hardly get it finished. Also, you should keep dialogue with users alive and best way to do this, is providing some packages from time to time.

In contrast to mihasznas suggestion, I'd keep the hungarian names of the leaders mostly (Corvinus might be an exclusion). At least, I'd keep the correct spelling. I really never seen it happen in several years of civ4 modding that this was a problem for other users. Well, this might also be a question of taste, but at least in Rákóczis case, I wouldn't translate Ferenc with Franz. If you translate it (which I wouldn't do), use Francis.

As about Árpáds yurt, I'd make it something influencing mounted units if possible, similar to how it was done for the Mongols in civ4 and how I stated it earlier.

 

[cool3a2]

I've updated post 1 with all suggestions made about the ub. I'd say the uu is pretty clear as long as it's only one. And I think we should concentrate on the ub for now and discuss the leader as well as the trait later.

Might be a little strange to have the csárda replace markets. Alternatively, we could add an entirely new building: restaurant, where the csárda is it's unique version for Hungary.

 

[tofe99]

Hello guys,

I downloaded it, but upon extracting I had an error message saying something about crc mismatch.

Any ideas?
Tofe

 

[cool3a2]

Try to redownload it. If that doesn't help, maybe there went something wrong during upload. If redownloading doesn't help let me know. Then, I'll talk to nitram as he opened the download thread, so I can't do any changes to it. Still, nobody else reported this error so far, so I think there is no problem with the upload.

 

[Nitram15]

If there a problem you can report to me (Nitram15) or cool3a2, and we'll fix it.

 

[Amarth]

Hello! I am new around here, and don't own the game yet. I tried out civ 4 and civ 5 at one of my friends. And there i could see that there is a hungarian faction at last keep up the good work there.

And now some ideas:
about the UU i think it may not be the best if it will be the hussar. I read a lot about our history and of another countries, and the polish have hussars in the 15-16 century, from there we adopted the name, of course it was heavy cavalry, but with gunpowder came the changing of it to the way we know it. It may be better if you use the black army but that was consist of mercenaries. There is no mongols in the game yet so maybe it will be best to use the horse archer (by the way we invented it ).
As UB the végvár i believe is perfect and from the translation issues i thought about border fort. It may be best if you want to translate it(of course my opinion). It refers well enough of it role and i think nowhere else call their castles this way.
Trait: this is realy hard. the preconceptions of bort búzát... is acceptable, but i think you should consider something more into science couse of the many hungarian nobel prise winners. (i believe they were all won in one of the (reál tárgyakból sajna ezt nem tudom angolul) except the one literature award won by sorstalanság)

These are my ideas i dont know if it can be implemented into the game, but if you like my ideas you can contact me for more.

 

[cool3a2]

First of all, the mongols are in the game, at least as some kind of free expansion pack. Next, I certainly doubt Hungarians invented horse archers. I'm pretty sure, that at least Huns were also fighting this ways and I think it was a pretty usual way of fighting in asia. Sure, you could argument that Hungarians descent from Huns now. Still, a) this is unproven as is the finn-ugric theory (as it's called a theory, right?), b) does 'descent from' not mean 'are' (dogs descent from wolves, but they are no wolves, right?), c) even if you could proof that Huns and Hungarians are the same (which you can't as we obviously don't have save knowledge about the Huns language for example), there is still the question whether Huns were the first who had horse archers. Feel free to elaborate on this if you like. Of course, horse archer would be an idea for a unique unit, but I'd say it should be used only if we decide for two uu's instead of 1 uu and 1 ub, which I think we shouldn't.
The black army suggestion was also discussed on the hungarian forum. It's pretty much the same as with the horse archer: good for a 2nd idea, but in my opinion not good as a first or single uu for the reasons you have mentioned yourself.
Regarding your doubts connected with the huszár, I think they are unjustified. Actually, what you said, is contrary to my readings. In fact, it seems Huszárs were developed in Corvinus age in Hungary (according to some sources under more or less balcan influence). Even the word 'huszár' seems to be of hungarian origin, see hungarian wikipedia: http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husz%C3%A1r. Sure, wikipedia tends to write a lot of BS, but it fits to what I have read elsewhere. In Corvinus age, huszárs were not what usually comes to mind when huszárs are mentioned. I mean, not even the hungarian huszárs were. If you'd like to see what an hungarian huszár at that time looked like, download my civ4 BtS Hungary mod and check the cuirassiers art. So, from Hungary it seems it was exported to 'Poland' were it took a different evolution, different from the hungarian huszárs. Later, the now well known hungarian hussars were exported again to quite a lot of european armies. And it is exactly that later version that is meant here which is unquestionably hungarian and which was a pretty successful model. And after all, they are kind of hungarian jedi (on horses of course, which makes them much more sexy than jedi ), aren't they? Actually, when discussing about this mod on the hungarian forum, this suggestion was almost unquestioned, at least as long as it was about a single or the first uu. I'm not here to dictate anything, but I think using the huszár as uu meets most users wishes.

Regarding the ub, yeah, it's good and at the moment I favor it, too. Still, we have a couple of other good suggestions, too. In general, the ub should be seen in context with the civs trait. They should be in balance. There are two suggestions / combinations I like:
1. ub - végvár, trait - something relating to our cuisine or paprika (I have searched a couple of names I'll release soon) that might influence food and / or hapiness with access to spices and / or wine
2. ub - csárda, trait - something military; nitram made some good suggestions regarding such a trait like Pro Libertate that gives bonus to units within the own borders
There are more suggestions that I may post later. Your trait sounds good, but I'd say that although I honour hungarian science, I think it would still be overrated a bit. But of course, your suggestion will be considered. You can post it on the hungarian forum if you like, if not, I think I'll do.

I'm actually thinking about a vote on the hungarian forum to find out what the majority wants to have as ub and trait. Maybe with two votes per voter if that's possible. The problem with this is, that after all this is kabcsis mod and he is simply not responding. Also, I have a little bit few time now. A vote would take a month at least to have enough participants, then, the hot phase of my diploma begins. Last but not least, we should introduce a new style of translating mods before we publish the next version of this mod to make sure it's compatible. This should be done as soon as possible as with time, more and more mods will be translated and this might lead to chaos if there are mods translated differently. However, that style is ready, but nitram did not yet finish his hungarian guide. And I'd like to have this first before I uploading anything.

Translating / changing the spelling of the uu's and ub's name is another thing I don't like, but I won't insist on. In my opinion, no one will be overstrained by a couple of hungarian words and it almost cetainly won't drop download rates, at least as long as they know (roughly) how to pronounce it. The pronounciation of 'huszár' will be pretty clear as it is pretty close to the word hus(s)ar that is well-known in a couple of languages. In case of 'végvár', people will replace the 'é' and the 'á' with e and a and pronounce it acordingly. The result will close enough to the original pronounciation and will not be hard to pronounce. It'd be different if the word in question would contain a 'gy' or 'ny' for instance as this sound has no counterpart in western languages. Again, I don't insist on this, but let me say that I had it this ways for years for the civ4 mod and noone EVER complained. And even now, there are only Hungarians complaining about it... Even more, the hungarian names will make it a little bit more unique. Finally, I'm somewhat fed up with that anyone spells french words and names correctly, but noone cares for spelling if it's about hungarian or other languages from eastern europe. After all, it remains a spelling mistake, right? I mean, no prob if anyone uses the translated or 'misspelled' version here on the forum or on private use, but in official sources like media the should care more. Well, even if anyone doesn't like the spelling or word we use, he is free to edit the mod. So, I really don't see any reason for this panic...

Anyways, if you have more ideas, feel free to share them here and on the hungarian forum. I think we should all know about them.

(reál tárgyakból sajna ezt nem tudom angolul)

Sounds like you meant 'practical things' like natural science

 

[Nitram15]

Scientific trait is a good idea, because none of the existing civs have any bonus on science.
But because of this, this is maybe impossible although. :/

 

[Amarth]

It seems you are right: "His son, Hunyadi Mátyás Matthias Corvinus, later king of Hungary, is unanimously accepted as the creator of these troops. Initially they fought in small bands, but were reorganised into larger, trained, formations during the reign of King Matthias I Corvinus of Hungary.[10][11] So the first Hussar regiments were the light cavalry of the Black Army of Hungary. Under his command the hussars took part in the war against the Ottoman Empire in 1485 and proved successful against the Turkish Spahis as well as against Bohemians and Poles."

I read in one of sienkiewicz's book about it and i tought they were the "inventors".
I dont meant to criticise you, your mod is great and every hungarian must thank you for this as well as the developers i believe

You wrote about a hungarian forum where can i find it?

And sorry for the language mistakes i got rusty it seems

 

[cool3a2]

It seems you are right: "His son, Hunyadi Mátyás Matthias Corvinus, later king of Hungary, is unanimously accepted as the creator of these troops. Initially they fought in small bands, but were reorganised into larger, trained, formations during the reign of King Matthias I Corvinus of Hungary.[10][11] So the first Hussar regiments were the light cavalry of the Black Army of Hungary. Under his command the hussars took part in the war against the Ottoman Empire in 1485 and proved successful against the Turkish Spahis as well as against Bohemians and Poles."

I read in one of sienkiewicz's book about it and i tought they were the "inventors".

Well, I wouldn't wonder. The german wiki writes that the name Attila derives from the gothic language... Something I haven't read elsewhere yet. So it's not unusual that peoples claim they have invented something. And although it seems that several sources support the hungarian invention of the Huszárs, they could all be wrong and the Poles are right. Whoever invented Huszárs initially, the late version is unquestionable connected with Hungary anywhere and it's that late version the uu is meant to be. So I see no problems here.

I dont meant to criticise you, your mod is great and every hungarian must thank you for this as well as the developers i believe

No prob, I didn't understand your post as critics, at least not as a negative form (and positive critics is actually something good). And I didn't want to be harsh although it might have sounded this ways. Sorry if it did.

You wrote about a hungarian forum where can i find it?

See my signature.

And sorry for the language mistakes i got rusty it seems

I've seen people writing in much worse english. My english isn't the best either, I guess. No need to be shy though. My impression is that english speekers feel pleased by the average users english knowledge (like ours).

BTW: I already updated the first post with all the suggestions made about the ub. The trait suggestions are missing though, I suppose I'll take care for that within a couple of days.

 

[brianshapiro]

I've been wanting to do my own Hungary civ, but I've found the modding options available now to be too limited to accomplish what I want.

This would be a generic Hungary civ, meant to represent all eras in the history of the nation --

TRAIT- Folk Tradition. +1 culture from each wheat resource farmed and each cattle, horse, or sheep pasture maintained. Mounted units ignore terrain penalties from moving onto hills / or all mounted units are able to gain scouting promotions.
UNIT- Hussar. Cavalry with extra attack per turn.
BUILDING- Mountain Fortress. Castle that gives an extra 50% bonus to the total city defense when there is a mountain within the city's borders.'

The 'folk tradition' trait I think better fits Hungary than the one suggested in the first post in the thread, of having an extra wheat resource with each farmed. As a matter of preference, I personally don't think there should be traits that are drawn from a nations geographic location; that Hungary had fertile land is a character of its location, not its culture. However, Hungary has always drawn its culture from its rural traditions, to the point that folk music played a major role in the avant garde movements there with Béla Bartók. And besides that fact, someone has already created a Civ trait like that here for Ukraine, "Fertile earths" ( http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=391236 )

I also feel that the castle replacement for Hungary needs to relate to the fact that the major defensive fortresses were built using steep hills or mountains to buttress their defenses and make them harder to penetrate. A good example is at Visegrád ( http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visegrád ).

Hussars are the obvious choice for a unique unit. I also think all mounted units should be given a slight advantage, to allow Hungarian horsemen earlier in the game to be good scouts.

 

[cool3a2]

First of all, I have iced my plans to update this mod for now for the same reasons you don't make your own module: modding options are that limited that the resulting mod would not reach adequat quality. My problems are basically that unique unit and building art can't be added without overwriting existing stuff. I mean, they did for some DLC package I heard, so it needs to be possible, but they simply don't share the info how to do it. AFAIK nobody knows how to do that yet. Nobody even has a vague clue. It's truely a pity as we have a big collection of art considering the civ4 Hungary mod and converting to granny files doesn't seem to be a problem at least for buildings. They just don't show up in the game... Let me say that I am pretty angry about Firaxis behaviour and that I think that it should be done something against it. I just don't have any clue what I could do. I mean, I probably could let them know about my feelings through facebook, but I wouldn't expect any reaction. And there's just nothing we could force them to do something...

Nevertheless it still might be worth discussing traits, uu and ub as I could imagine that the whole problem might solve pretty fast if only Firaxis and Sith Meyer would decide to do something. I think it is pretty clear that the Huszár should be the uu and also it's trait - the one you mentioned - seems to be widely accepted.
Your suggestion for the trait makes sense and of course, I also think that the current trait should be changed. I just believe that your suggestion is a bit unspecific. I think there are many other nations also having a rich folk tradition. In my opinion, the farming / culture bonus is worth thinking about it, but there are better solutions. The scouting promotion however makes sense, but alone seems to be too weak. Taking away the terrain penalties would destroy a tactical feature of civ5, so I wouldn't do it.
I have to say that I don't really like the ub you suggested. A castle ub itself is okay, but I don't think mountains should play a that major role. Other nations also built their castles on hills and mountains, so it's nothing special for Hungary. Still, one could make the végvár the ub which increases cities defense, a bit of culture, and increases the cities defense even more if hills are around. The way you suggested it would make the ub completely useless if there is no hill around. Although there will be a hill around in most cases, the ub should work in any case.

There were a couple of more suggestions on the hungarian forum. The two most promising ones in my eyes is trait: pro libertate (combat bonus for military units when fighting within own borders) / ub: csárda giving some culture and happines bonus (maybe in relation with some ressources as spices or wine) and trait: 'red gold' (paprika boosting the culture and happiness or something) / ub: végvár. The second one goes into a similar direction as your suggestion, both, however, boost military and folklore features of Hungary. Spas could also work as ub, too, instead of the csárda.

 

[brianshapiro]

I don't think its so much that Hungary is unique to have a rich folk tradition, I was thinking more along the lines that -- partly because of Hungary's location and influences (between Eastern and Western Europe) -- its folk tradition was more closely and strongly tied into to national identity through its history, in fine art and classical music, and vice versa -- national culture worked its way into folk traditions, through military heroes. I don't know if there's a unique name to give this, but I think it gives more flavor and feeling to a Hungarian civ than some of the other traits that have been suggested. Some of them feel too specific.

I thought that mountains / hills should play some role in the unique building, because there is already another castle replacement that gives higher defense for another civ. I was thinking at first hills +25% and mountains +50% but then I thought that might be too big of a bonus. In any case, it wouldn't be useless just because it wouldnt give the bonus in every city; it would give bonuses to cities that you set up as defensive cities, carefully choosing to place them near mountains. Werent hungary's main lines of defense set up in mountains or hills?