Hyborem proposal...

[the_fish]

Would making Hyborem (the unit) 'permanently' immortal make him too powerful? Seems like he'd be a pretty nice bolster for the Infernals if the AI (and human player) used him super-aggressively, plus not as potentially unbalancing as improving the demons/cities as there can only be one of him at once.

If you wanted to go with the score-boosting wonder, then how about a wonder in Dis ("Soulstone", anyone? ) that gives him the immortal promotion at the start of every Infernal turn? If the city is razed he loses the immortal promotion, wherever he is on the map.

So you can go rampaging with your kickass stompy demon lord, but are vulnerable to a surprise counterattack on your capital.

Dang, I should have entered that in the competition...

 

[Senethro]

I think thats a bit powerful. What about regaining the Immortal promotion for razing a city with him? Given that the Infernals don't want to capture many size 1 cities it should work for them.


Edit: Doesn't Basium halve research rate?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I would prefer making units Hyborem kills have a chance of spawning manes, giving the Infernal extra production from flames, making Snake pillars upgrade like Forts (providing extra production and more defense for demons, maybe increased range/strength for summons), giving Infernal cities more free buildings, scaling the size and strength of his starting army in relation to those of the other civs, letting him start with a few HN units to get his early conquests started, making his cities start at size 6, making his manes sometimes start with xp like angels do, and giving him several more traits than any other leader (except Basium, who could use a similar boost)

 

[mindlar]

Basium really doesn't need any help. Given that he starts with a team, it makes him capable enough that he doesn't need much help.

Hyborem on the other hand could use more starting units (in most cases), but done in a dynamic way that makes it possible to keep him out of turtle mode. I've got some ideas that I may test out after Shadow's release. Hyborem really should be more of a threat when he spawns, similar to the scare factor of seeing Orthus pop up next to your civ.

 

[xienwolf]

I don't think that a Palace follows the National Wonder Mechanic.

1) You have have 2 National Wonders in your Capitol, plus of course the Palace.

2) You can build the Palace while one already exists.


But, it does sound like a plausible case if my points are invalid.

 

[snarko]

I don't think that a Palace follows the National Wonder Mechanic.

1) You have have 2 National Wonders in your Capitol, plus of course the Palace.

2) You can build the Palace while one already exists.


But, it does sound like a plausible case if my points are invalid.

The palace is a national wonder. It just happends to be the only national wonder following the specific mechanics you point out in 1) and 2).

 

[Arqane]

Well, according to the mouseover of your own score, you get points for:
Technology
Land
Population
Wonders

I'm pretty sure battles won also figures in your score. I'd think the best way to spawn Hyborem is dependant on the score of the summoner. That way if you rush to spawn him on turn 150 and a score of ~500, Hyborem will start with a very modest army so he can't just steamroll everyone. If the game has been going on for a while, it's turn 400, and the scores are around 2000, then Hyborem should be much more powerful.

I'm thinking you start with 1 Settler per 500 points, 1 Mane per 200 points, 1 Longbowman per 250 points, and 1 Sect of Flies per 250 points. That way you can artificially inflate Hyborem's score to whatever you want (I'd make it even with the summoner if possible), and he'd have the appropriate power to back it up.

 

[mdfairch]

I'm pretty sure battles won also figures in your score. I'd think the best way to spawn Hyborem is dependant on the score of the summoner. That way if you rush to spawn him on turn 150 and a score of ~500, Hyborem will start with a very modest army so he can't just steamroll everyone. If the game has been going on for a while, it's turn 400, and the scores are around 2000, then Hyborem should be much more powerful.

I'm thinking you start with 1 Settler per 500 points, 1 Mane per 200 points, 1 Longbowman per 250 points, and 1 Sect of Flies per 250 points. That way you can artificially inflate Hyborem's score to whatever you want (I'd make it even with the summoner if possible), and he'd have the appropriate power to back it up.

As far as the number of units that Hyborem receives, why not tie it to the extent to which the Ashen Veil religion has spread? Like, starting with one unit for every existing unit that has the Ashen Veil religion? After all, if Hyborem is spawned into an Order-dominated world, there's no reason that he would be particularly powerful, while if he enters an Ashen-Veil dominated world, he would very quickly be in a position to rule it.

Of course, that would make Hyborem extremely uninteresting in Order-dominated worlds -- going in just the opposite direction would make for games that are much more ... fluid. Like, one sect of flies for every unit that has the Order religion. I guess it depends on whether you see Hyborem's power in the world as a consequence of the world's growing evil, or as instigating factor in the emergence of a dark cancer upon Erebus.

 

[Mewtarthio]

As far as the number of units that Hyborem receives, why not tie it to the extent to which the Ashen Veil religion has spread? Like, starting with one unit for every existing unit that has the Ashen Veil religion? After all, if Hyborem is spawned into an Order-dominated world, there's no reason that he would be particularly powerful, while if he enters an Ashen-Veil dominated world, he would very quickly be in a position to rule it.

To be honest, I think Hyborem should be, if anything, more powerful in an Order-dominated world. That's not for any particular logical reason, but just for the cinematic effect. If the Order has spread and is actively stamping out evil, it's extremely boring for the last Ashen Veil nation to summon a pathetically weak army that gets instantly quashed. If, on the other hand, the last AV nation makes a desparate pact that the Order fails to prevent, resulting in the emergence of an apocalyptic army that the world must band together to stop, things are much more entertaining.

Perhaps we could go with a system similar to the one Arqane suggested (in the post you quoted), only base it off whoever's in first place, followed by some multiplier based off the percentage of power held by Order nations. Then again, that could break the Barbarian truce pretty quickly, so maybe his score could be based off the guy in second place instead (so the strongest nation in the world could potentially hold its own, but anyone else is in trouble).

 

[xienwolf]

I don't know if keeping peace with the barbarian's is more worthwhile than being strong. I'd personally be willing to be powerful enough to step on the Barbarian's without noticing them than to be so wimpy I am afraid to break our truce to take over a Barbarian town and claim some land for myself.

 

[Mailbox]

How about changing Fallow to give permanent peace with the barbarians? It's strange that the AV figurehead has a research penalty anyways.

 

[Grillick]

I'm playing Hyborem in my current game, and it just occurred to me, why does he have the Expansive trait? It's completely irrelevant in light of his Fallow trait and the fact that he's always Ashen Veil, and therefore almost always uses Sacrifice the Weak...

 

[Sarisin]

I'm playing Hyborem in my current game, and it just occurred to me, why does he have the Expansive trait? It's completely irrelevant in light of his Fallow trait and the fact that he's always Ashen Veil, and therefore almost always uses Sacrifice the Weak...

I think there are other inconsistencies in the traits assigned and they should be looked at for each civ/leader. For example,

Alexis/Calabim has Philosophical and yet cannot build Elder Councils. I don't think a leader should have a trait that features a 'building' that cannot be built.

The Barbarian trait is useless for the Clan and Charadon. I have not played a .23 or a .25 game where these civs have NOT declared war on the barbs early on. This negates the advantage of the trait (peace with the barbs) while keeping the disadvantage (-10% Research).

There are others, too, I think that don't make sense.

 

[Senethro]

I think there are other inconsistencies in the traits assigned and they should be looked at for each civ/leader. For example,

Alexis/Calabim has Philosophical and yet cannot build Elder Councils. I don't think a leader should have a trait that features a 'building' that cannot be built.

The Barbarian trait is useless for the Clan and Charadon. I have not played a .23 or a .25 game where these civs have NOT declared war on the barbs early on. This negates the advantage of the trait (peace with the barbs) while keeping the disadvantage (-10% Research).

There are others, too, I think that don't make sense.

This is surely a mistake of the AIs playing the CLan and charadon, right?

Or has the ability to fight barbs without declaring war been removed?