Discussion in 'Civ3 - Stories & Tales' started by Arathorn, May 28, 2004.
Nice job Arathron. Looks like this one could just go your way
A great moment Arathorn! Congratulations on eliminating your first foe. I'm enjoying your tale very much.
The Zulu and Egyptian reluctance to attack you on Zulu Mountain was strange. That adds another piece to the puzzle of "when will the AI attack?" Not as disturbing this time as some of the cases we've seen before since it made you work harder Still, disturbing in the lack of a clear pattern - I'd have bet on them attacking you on ZM. Nice work on your alternate plan
Game is in the bag.
good thing you put a link to this into your sig - otherwise I would have missed a really entertaining read. Too bad you haven't started this with the VP shield counter trick from LotR13 - or were you fearing an overflow error?
Great playing on your part, as expected. And it will be interesting to see if the map will still be in your favor when it comes to coal, rubber and saltpeter...
Er, I think that's a bit early to say. The runaway America situation will become very interesting very soon. I envision landings with 10-30 riflemen per turn which have to be killed with trebuchets and knights only. Worst case will be that America has infantry before Arathorn has cavalry...
Anyway, good luck, Arathorn!
Great reading, Arathorn
Can't wait to read about the showdown against America
General Plan after destruction of Zulu:
- Get Astronomy and go pillaging.
- Eliminate Egyptians, after letting Thebes build Leonardos Workshop
- Settle remaining open islands
I actually shouldve started researching Education as soon as Theology and Invention popped from the Library, but I missed a turn of opportunity. Oh well. I start a min run on Education, expecting to build libraries and maybe even prebuild for universities towards the end of the min run, unless something changes to make Education available sooner. Education costs 2424 beakers. I *could* get it faster than 50 turns, but Id burn up a whole lot of my treasury doing so. With Astronomy costing 3085 beakers (3040 once I eliminate Egypt! ), Ill need my treasury built up for that run (and potentially for upgrading to caravels at that point, too).
Once Astronomy comes in, so the plan says, I can put an army with two knights in it in one caravel and two knights in another caravel and send them together. If, as I suspect, the AI wont attack my 8-hp army, I can load in the other two knights and go a-pillaging. I have enough armies for one each to Mongolia, Japan, and Arabia, with one lucky army getting both America and China, since they share a continent. I think America has another landmass, too, but Im not certain. I may try to conquer it, if it looks do-able. One thing at a time.
Egypt still has a phenomenal number of spears, especially to use to defend just 4 cities. But I have a plan for that, too. Ulundi has improved squares and I plan on filling in the island a bit more. When the Egyptian spears come to pillage, I will draw them in and then trap them with some of my pike horde. I dont think the spears will attack and I can eliminate a bunch of troops from the fray and wont have to kill them all off painfully and expensively.
The 1090 interturn shows the wisdom of the Egyptian trap strategy, as 52 Egyptian spears move near Ulundi. It takes until 1140 for the spear trap to be fully operative, and I believe I counted 57 spears completely boxed in (one stack of 27, one of 20, and one of 10) and now worthless to Cleo. In that time, the Americans started Bachs (good, waste time on optional techs!), I had enough cities to wrap back to New Salamanca, and Memphis fell, defended by only 3 spears (all of whom were redlined by my small trebuchet stack). Too bad the rest are off in la-la land, Egypt!
I move up to Thebes and check out its defenses 7 spears. I kill 3 of them on my way past, to make it easier to take Thebes after it hopefully completes Leonardos Workshop. I also note extreme over-irrigation that I would like to change, but I cant spare workers nor people to protect them at this point, to help Thebes finish faster. I put it on my To Do list, though.
Americas landings are becoming a bit of a problem. In 1190, they drop off 5 units on North Island. Ive been shipping nearly all of my units to Egypt to fight them (and Arabs next, Ive decided. They have a mountain to land on, three luxuries, and eliminating them will help connect a LOT of islands for me. Plus, all my troops will be relatively near, and troop movement is extremely slow over water). Anyway, I dont even have enough units on hand to deal with this threat. I kill a few but a couple actually get to die attacking my city instead of outside its walls. That also costs me a bit of food and production in a city. Nothing to do about it now but to start beefing up North Island, as soon as it becomes possible.
1200 status report:
Egypt 3 cities even my mil is STRONG
China 4 cities down Monotheism, Feudalism, Engineering my mil is AVERAGE
America 11 cities up Education (+), down Invention my mil is WEAK
Japan 7 cities down Literature, Monotheism, Engineering my mil is WEAK
Arabia 8 cities down Monotheism, Feudalism, Engineering my mil is AVERAGE
Mongols 7 cities down Literature, Monotheism, Engineering my mil is WEAK
Me 35 cities par par with 223 units
I dont reach Heliopolis until 1240 AD. My trebs go 6 for 12, yellowing the 3 defending spears. I do lose an elite MW in the attack, but Heliopolis burns, netting me 6 more slaves and a trebuchet for my trouble. Elephantine is next to be captured, and I will try to hold it and the Hanging Gardens, recapturing if/when necessary.
Ive also been settling like crazy on east East Island and as much as possible on Southeast Island, as well as shipping a few troops (a half-dozen MW and a couple swords) down to Southeast Island to defend against the inevitable landings. Slaves are also en route (its a LONG sail) to help road everything up and make transportation a lot easier (primarily to help with defense).
Elephantine proves to be quite the siege. It starts in 1260, with 4 spears defending. My trebs go 9 for 13. I kill one no problem but then an elite archer loses. And another and the defender promotes to 3/5 and I abandon the attack briefly.
I just bombard in 1265, with very VERY little success. Army rests and I use some culture-free spots for other units to try to heal. 1270 sees 4 defenders again. Trebs go 6 of 13, and the army kills 2. I bombard again in 1275 with minimal success and again only the army is healed and available and kills 2 spears. Somewhere in here America starts Leos, too. I just hope Thebes can win the race. Ive started mining a few of Thebes squares, but most of the worker force was back irrigating desert by Onnontare, so its been a trek.
1280 is a big year for more reasons than one. I finally capture Elephantine from 2 more spears (yes, they were building a spear/turn). I sell some of the useless stuff (Marketplace? Out here? Valueless.) and set it to starve, with just a couple archers as MP.
In the interturn, though, its apparent that America and Egypt finally gained contact. Education pops from the Great Library, so I will need to start work on Astronomy ASAP. I am a bit lucky, though, and Gunpowder pops, too, so apparently Egypt and America traded. That means I got quite a bit of mileage out of the GLib, but I need to start up my own research.
Theres no time like the present to start research and heartily. I need lux at 20% to keep things running smoothly, but I order a bunch of libraries (essentially all non-corrupt cities with cathedrals get libraries ordered), stopping unit production for all intents and purposes. I turn science up to 80% and change all taxmen over to scientists. A number of cities, even in the core, are put on slight starvation diets, to get more scientists faster. That gets me to Astronomy predicted in 11 at 233 gpt with 2505 gold in the bank (Note: 233 * 11 = 2563). I really hope to get not only enough gold but the turns down to something less than 11, as libraries complete.
I also do a saltpeter search. I dont have any in my capital, which means none on Main Island, so its not trivial to see whether America has any and Ive not fully mapped Lincolns lands anyway. I am getting a better map, though, since I successfully suicided a galley looking for a better crossing. Anyway, there is saltpeter visible on eastern East Island, on Southeast Island, South Central Island (completely unsettled, but next on my list), Arabia, Mongolia, and SE America Island (completely unsettled but across a wide sea for me). America, also, does have a second island mostly under their control West America Ill call it. Looks like a natural place to invade, when I get the chance. Not well-developed lands
Elephantine lasts under my control until 1300, at which time it flips back to Egypt. So, in 1305 I recapture Elephantine from its two spear defenders. Ive also reached Thebes (I went the long way to avoid stepping on squares producing shields!) and Egypt is in Monarchy, so only two MP do any good. I have good luck with my trebs and kill a couple spears (army, of course), leaving two left.
Cleo responds to this affront by completing Leonardos Workshop in 1305 AD! Cheer! She beat Lincoln. I, of course, capture Thebes in 1310 AD and am now the proud owner of the Temple of Artemis, Pyramids, and Leonardos Workshop. The tourism bonus from ToA and Pyramids is pretty significant. And Thebes can hire a few more scientists for me!
Im just shipping units to east Eastern Island and settling and MMing for maximum science (I was able to lower science to 70% at one point and slow the gold hemorrhaging a bit). I dont have near enough units in place to invade Arabia and I spent some time with Salamanca and Niagara Falls working on knights to fill the local armies (with 2 units only, of course) and hopefully have a few extra to ship to each island for better defensive purposes.
America is being a real PITA, landing as many as 7 units at a time on North Island. I got a bit pillaged, because I started using my trebuchet forces to redline boats and then try to sink them instead of immediately going after the units. Cost me a mined, roaded bonus grassland for a couple turns and a couple lost warriors, but I think it was worth it. I want to get North Island fully under control, but a number of different projects are competing now for shields/gold and my energy. I think/hope the pillaging parties will serve to drastically cut down on interlopers, to make my life easier. Right now, America is landing 2-7 units/turn and I cant even heal that fast
At the end of 1325, Astronomy comes in (Note: Thats a total of 9 turns spent researching it, at a cost of ~2000 gold from my treasury). I wasted somewhere between 0 and 2 beakers, because changing even one scientist to something else wouldve made it take a turn longer. I actually had a couple taxmen hired there at the very end. I tentatively order up Banking and take a look around in 1330.
I have luxuries! In my capital. It only took 5330 years! I now have 4 luxuries (Id rushed a harbor on Zulu/Egypt Island a couple turns ago, when it became apparent Id get the tech with cash still in the treasury). And saltpeter is local. America indeed has no saltpeter. They do have iron right next to one of their cities on West America Island, but it appears to not be connected yet.
Status in 1330:
China 4 cities down Monotheism, Engineering my mil is AVERAGE
America 11 cities up Music Theory my mil is WEAK
Japan 7 cities down Literature, Monotheism, Invention my mil is WEAK
Arabia 8 cities down Engineering, Theology, Chivalry my mil is AVERAGE
Mongols 7 cities down Literature, Monotheism, Invention my mil is WEAK
Iroquois 46 cities par par 233 units (124 allowed, so paying 109 gpt for military)
I upgrade 7 galleys to caravels for 105 gold (thanks, Leo) and start looking for good insertion points. I also get to turn the luxury tax down to 0%, which is nice for a sagging economy.
Strategy Questions time:
1. Sell temples and/or cathedrals with luxuries now in?
2. What to research next? How strongly?
3. Build universities? Or more military?
4. Still Arabia? Or try West America?
5. How fast can I settle the other islands? Worth cash-rushing settlers? Can I defend them?
1. NO! Thats crazy talk. 4 luxuries is 6 happy faces, plus one from Hanging Gardens and the one born content is 8. Temple and cathedral make it 12, which is nice. Yes, I have MP who could take up some of that slack, but being able to move military from serving as MP to serving as opponent fighters is significant. My regular warriors serving as MPs will be disbanded to save on upkeep costs and because theyre not worth the cost
2. Banking at 1st costs 3120 beakers. Chemistry is 3600 beakers. Metallurgy and Physics will be 3840. Thats assuming first-civ prices. At second civ, its 2822/3257/3474. I save roughly 300 beakers by waiting
. Without changing specialists, I can research Banking in 28 turns @ 0% science (+146 gpt), 22 turns @ 10% (+111 gpt), 18 turns @ 20% (+80 gpt), 16 @ 30% (+51 gpt), 14 @ 40% (+17 gpt), or 11 @ 50% (-51 gpt). I have 283 gold in the bank. I want to do a lot of upgrades, to caravels and even some to muskets. With Leonardos Workshop in hand, upgrading is cheap enough to definitely be valuable. Even more scientists are hired and science is set at 0%. I can get Banking in 24 this way, but I may well increase science later. Cash now, maybe science later, but definitely all specialists are scientists instead of taxmen.
3. Universities, primarily, for now, especially in some of my watery coastal towns that have pretty good commerce and poor shields. Shield powers like Salamanca and Niagara Falls can afford to crank out a few more units before they do their universities. Once all universities are completed, I can increase science and then build a few units before the banking push. New units, which are always needed, will come from upgrading current MP units. Spear->musket costs 60 gold (40 shields * 3 gold/shield * 1/2 for Leos), so I can do a couple every turn or so, depending on galley availability and need to rush settlers
4. Yes, still Arabia. West America is a bit better strategically, but theyre only really one tech ahead, and its not a required tech (I was more worried than I needed to be). Arabia is so much better tactically, though, with military in the area and a number of boats, plus hills to land on. Not only that, conquering Arabia will let me connect a lot of distant islands, so I gotta do Arabia first. Most new military will probably be sent in Americas direction, though. I think the remnants of the Egyptian team (Id continued sending units that way) will be enough. Ive got a knight army to land and spearhead the team, too. Plus, there's no huge hurry in eliminating Arabia.
5. I can settle very fast, but I cant settle and defend very fast. Southeast Island will probably become a Japanese hotspot theyve already dropped off one archer/spear pair and I dont have a lot of units in the area. Its just a LONG sail to get there. Anywhere I settle at this point, I really need to settle with massive force, which I just dont have available to project everywhere at once. Its not worth rushing many/any settlers let the population come, use specialists when needed. With 10ish cities building settlers, I can get one every three turns or so, even without cash, which should be somewhat close to the rate at which I can build the necessary units to defend them.
Great read Arathorn. Any chance you could post some pictures of the enemy islands?
If the Americans have plenty of ships to send your way how come they haven't settled the island directly below them?
In 1350, I got another MGL on North Island (Tecumseh) while cleaning off some American invaders. He'll make another army. This one will be tasked with defending North Island, at least for the time being. Only loaded with 2 knights, though, to keep him transportable (I'm thinking West America as a good target, once I get things into shape to do that).
The beginning of a bad episode in Iroquois history started rather innocently in 1355 AD. The Americans made a landing on E/Z island. I wasn't worried -- I had my 4 MDI army (17-hp strong) there for just such an occasion. I moved in and killed the top spear, incidentally becoming the only defender of New Oka, right by their stack. I lost 2 hp vs. the spear.
Then, America attacked. With a longbow. And I lost and lost and lost but won with about 6 hp left. And the other longbow attacked, redlined, rallied, and killed my army! I lost New Oka, too, to the jerk. And most of my forces had already left E/Z island. Good to know armies aren't completely invincible against the AI, but it was a painful reminder.
Anyway, it took until 1375 before I was able to re-capture New Oka, with some trebuchets and some MDI I managed to scrape up from various locations. Oy. E/Z island is now very VERY thinly defended. Who'd've thought the Americans would land there? It's something to keep me on my toes.
In other news, a 4-knight army was methodically destroying much of Mongolia's improvements, while another 4 knights and an army (2 loaded, 2 unloaded) had made it to Japan and were preparing to pillage. The American (and Chinese) army was still en route.
America reminded everyone of how WONDERful she is by completing yet another wonder the same year. Magellan's. I, frankly, don't care. The more time the AI spends on non-essential techs, the happier I am. And I can get pretty much everywhere I need to go via sea, so let them have their Navigation.
One of the reasons E/Z island was getting kinda bare is that I was preparing a small present for Abu...
In 1385, I landed 33 units on a hill in Arabia. Many muskets accompanied this force, and it was on a hill. The knight army had done some pillaging to slow troops to the area and was sitting on a choke, preventing what I hoped would be half of the Arabian army from arriving.
Well, the non-AC half, anyway. I *hate* Ancient Cavalry, even in the AI's hands. I have bad luck against them to begin with and the extra hp only makes it worse. Their 3 attack against my 6 defense (4+50% for being on a hill). 15 attack. 6 retreat. 5 kill muskets. 4 die. NOT what I had in mind.
Oh, and an archer attacks and dies.
New Gewauga is then founded on the spot and walls rushed via worker. It only has 3 squares to its name, but I expect to raze my way to some breathing room relatively soon. Keeping SoZ would be nice but is it worth the flip risk??? I also use 5 trebs to take out a road near New Gewauga that should slow the horde o' ACav a bit.
Only one ACav this IT and he retreats.
1395 is good -- I kill 4 on the counterattack and watch 7 archers suicide against the walls of New Gewauga. A few more troops have arrived, too, giving me a bit better punch on the offense.
1400 -- Kill 7 on the counterattack. I'm keeping one road in "my" territory, so the AI spears move on. I bomb them to red, kill all but one with MDI, and the last with a knight -- standard tactics but the road is the only reason they don't retreat into a nearby city and just wait. They want to pillage. I kill them instead.
And, 1400 AD marks an interesting point in the game. It's halfway through. 270 turns played, 270 to go. So, I pause, and get some pictures. I hope the names are reasonable explanatory.
Enjoy! I tried to get every important island at least somewhat into a picture.
Great progress Arathorn! What does F8 say about your landmass? It looks almost 50%, but with a few border expansions I would say over that.
I'm at 34/43 -- 34% of the world's land and 43% of the population. There may be other islands around that I've not discovered yet. I'm just planning on starting some sea explorations.
Take Japan, for example, they have 7 cities, but only 6 are visible on Japan -- their mainland island. They obviously have another island that they've colonized that I've not found yet.
BTW, I'm really not sure why America didn't colonize SE America (or finish colonizing West America Island). They have plenty of ships, even after I've sunk a few. I'm pretty sure I've seen a settler or two on their main island. I'm *guessing* (but not knowing) that once they could reach me, attacking me became a higher priority for their ships than transporting settlers. It's caused me some problems, but they will probably never send enough units to build momentum to do more than be a fairly major annoyance.
This thread is a fun read. You are really playing impressively! For someone who looks like he's seven or eight years old to have a Sid always war game in a position for a win is remarkable. Don't let up now, Arathorn!
@ Reagan. I'm pretty sure Arathorn's avatar is a picture of his son, not himself (must be a pretty smart 8 year old to be a research cryptographer).
Way to spoil my warped view of reality, man. I've been playing in SGs with Arathorn for a couple years now and all this time I thought he was the second coming of Doogie Howswer. Oh well, he's still an impressive player.
The scary thing is he's only 5.... But, yeah, that's my elder son. He's pretty impressive, but all my attempts to get him interested in Civ have been in vain. Ah well. Maybe CivIV will pique his interest.
He's also the reason I bring my work home...
I've never been good at judging a kid's age, so I figured I'd err on the high side so as not to offend the little guy by guessing too low. I remember he looked much younger in your previous pic of him, so I should have deduced he is now five or six. Oh well. This threadjack now leaves us with the question of how many people thought my initial post was serious (about your age, at least . . . nobody doubts your ability).
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