Discussion in 'Civ3 - Stories & Tales' started by Arathorn, May 28, 2004.
Better not do that! Let him stay away from CIV and have a real childhood!
why have a childhood when you can have an empire?
Hmm he must be writing something big if its taking this long ...
or maybe he lost? (i bloody well hope not)
[Editor's notes: Sheesh, people. Give me some time. It's barely been a week. Turns take a LONG time, and this annoying thing called "real life" has a way of sucking up a lot of time, too. I've been dealing with sick family and this hasn't been a priority. Now, I had finally gotten some stuff together and was going to post today, anyway, but.... Cut a guy some slack, alright?]
The frickin Ancient Cavalry have healed and attack again. A few archers do, too. All the archers die, of course. The ACav kill two muskets (uphill, with walls and fortified, effective defense 9), while only losing 2. 6 retreat. 13 archers attacked and died. The only good thing is that the first attack gave me another MGL in defense. Im getting more in defense this game than any other in recent memory.
My 1405 counterattack is pretty effective, especially against the spears. I attack red-lined ACav and red/yellow-lined spears. I kill 13 spears with no casualties, but lose a vet MDI, an elite MDI, and a vet knight to red-lined ACav. I think thats pretty much the end of the Ancient Cavalry, but I want to never fight them again.
I also have enough troops to move guarded trebs out by Medina. Ive nixed the counter-attackers, so they all are fine. Well, that, and I moved a combined musket, MDI army out with them. Ill commit two armies to each island, if necessary.
There were only three spears in Medina, which were easily redlined by 8 trebuchets. A pillaging spear also moved up next to New Gewauga. Hes also redlined. All 4 spears are easily dispatched, of course. The question is what to do after the destruction of the third spear in Medina. Well, not really. Its size 6 and I just really dont want to risk a significant portion of my army either baby-sitting a fliprisk or trying to prevent a flip. A handful of ACav and the tourism bonus, while nice, just arent worth the risk.
All the interesting action is focused on Arabia, but that doesnt mean all the action is in Arabia. The Americans continue to land troops, not only on North Island (mainly there, though) but also on Main Island, Bapedi Island, and E/Z Island. Im slowing sinking a few of their ships, when they stay too near shore so that I can bombard them. This slows their advance a bit. The Japanese cant decide between Iron Island and Southeast Island and making a minor nuisance of themselves on both islands instead of a major nuisance (a.k.a a problem) on one island or the other. The Mongols appear to be boatless and not interested in changing that situation
. My settlers continue to roam to various points of land, including small islands, points on larger islands, and anywhere else I think interesting.
Back to Arabia. I get another MGL to form another army in 1415. This one stays empty. I think Ill try to get him some units (in short supply right now, been stuck at around 225 units for quite a while here, trying to catch up on some infrastructure activities) and send him to West America, as the spearhead for an eventual invasion there. Thats a ways in the future, though. One front at a time is pretty much all I have the troops for.
And, Japan does interesting things with its forces. I guess they want that oasis square all to themselves! Ill never understand the AIs patrol routine
1420 sees the stack move on Baghdad. Banking comes in and Chemistry is selected. Once again, the vast majority of the research is being powered by scientist specialists throughout the world. And, once again, changing a single scientist into something else wouldve cost me the tech no wasted gold is my mantra. While Navigation would be useful, the only non-required tech Im considering is Military Tradition
and that decision doesnt need to be made for a while.
Oh, and I get my second leader from a single unit. This guy was an archer when I invaded E/Z island, where he promoted to elite, generated a leader (Red Cloud), and then got upgraded. Hes since promoted to elite again, and
. Sitting Bull was also part of this army. Will he reach guerilla to produce a third MGL?
You can also see the knight army choking off a significant portion of the Arab land (and troops). That allowed me to get my early gains more easily.
Four spears defend Baghdad, 3 vets fortified and one lonely regular whos not fortified. Trebs only hit on 7 of their 10 shots, but none of the spears have more than 2 hps, so I send in the troops anyway. It costs me an elite MDI, but Baghdad burns. Good deal.
It takes until 1435, with minimal skirmishing only, for my troops to be in position by Mecca. They have at least 7 spears in there. I kill 2 and lose a troop and need to wait for better reinforcements before assaulting it again. I dont mind a couple casualties, as Im really gutting a lot of the Arabian power center here.
In 1440, despite a poor showing by the trebuchet operators (only 7 of 14 hit), Iroquois troops assault Mecca. Spears die and die. The cities run red. A MDI falls but his weapons are recovered, not giving the Arabs a chance to use iron. Finally, the sixth unit is an archer. He falls and the last two units to defend Mecca are only a pair of settlers. They quickly become slaves and Mecca is now only a memory, a ruins where once stand a large city.
In preparation for crossing the choke, the army had moved out of the way in 1435. By the end of the AIs turn in 1440, I was starting to question the wisdom of this. The Golden Horde of the Mongols had nothing on the Pink Horde of the Arabs. I try not to count troops that go past a single page when right-clicking, and the Arabs have several of those. My quick guess at the time was well over 150 units.
I pull everybody back to New Gewauga and the two cities Id built on the ivory and Baghdads ruins and well try to pick some of these guys off. I might have to abandon a city or two. I wasnt quite expecting this size of a response.
The killing grounds are open for business in 1455 AD. I kill 8 and lose none. Then things really start happening. I start using my armies as a sort of roaming blockade to protect my two empty cities and try to convince the AI to attack New Gewauga, which it wont do. Trebs pick on small stacks and then the troops move in. The army Zone of Control occasionally will wound an Arab unit and occasionally Ill have left-over trebs to use to lob shots at a very large stack. Wounded units retreat to no-mans land to heal and I dont have the forces to go after them.
1460 Kill 15, lose 1. Gain one MGL.
1465 Kill 9, lose 1.
1470 Kill 12, lose 0.
1475 Kill 11, lose 0.
1480 Kill 13, lose 2.
1485 Kill 7, lose 2.
1490 Kill 6, lose 1.
1495 Kill 18, lose 2. (Interestingly enough, I kill the 18 consecutively and lost the two at the very end)
In other news, Southeast Island is finally fully settled and, while not well defended, has enough units on it that I am willing to ship three of them off to try to raze a Japanese city on a tiny little iceball (Nagoya). Two knights and an MDI can hopefully handle a few units and further cut down on any ability Japan had to be a contender in this game.
Southeast America started receiving shipments of troops, too. Arabia is pretty much on its own and new/upgraded troops arent quite so needed on North Island, so theyre prepping for an American invasion. Southeast America is a natural initial launching point, plus its a place I can settle to continue my quest for reducing unit costs and for increasing production and commerce. Settlers in this area are in short supply and population points valuable, so workers to road and units to defend are sent first. Muskets and knights, primarily, with a few trebuchets for support.
Apparently, my presence there triggered something with the AI. America responded by landing the occasional troops near undefended workers, but also with a settler/spear pair. More slaves are always appreciated and Im not picky about nationality. Once I get a few settlers produced, Southeast America will be all mine.
A couple armies from the Arabian war are on their way, too. Im thinking they will, alone, form the basis for an attack on West America. With patience, I may well be able to raze most of those cities, cutting down on the American threat significantly. It feels wasteful to dedicate two armies to a non-core island, but I seem to be creating a significant number of them at this point
the mere establishment of a beachhead is almost guaranteed to produce a MGL or two, so I am starting to feel a bit more free with them.
Mongolia and Japan are now completely stripped of all improvements. The lands are again pristine, except for the ugly blights of cities. I had to kill a couple spear/archer pairs to pillage the last few squares, but now the armies are just kinda moving around, trying to see every tile every few turns, to prevent the reappearance of any mines, irrigation, or roads. Much of America has been pillaged, but they have some serious mountains, plus large (10+ units) stacks on some tiles, making it hard to pillage everything. Ive pillaged a lot and moved on to China. The C/A Island is large and impassable enough Ill probably not manage to keep it entirely pillaged at least not with a single army.
I started disbanding Arabian slaves as shield-starters for a vet MDI (or longbow, sometimes defensive bombard is handy) to be cash-rushed every turn in New Gewauga. And Im not making nearly the kind of progress I would like. Over the last 9 turns, Ive amasssed a total of 99 kills and 9 losses, which isnt good enough. I cant keep that up it dedicates too much of my cash to Arabia, when its need worldwide. And Arabia still has 100+ units. They build approximately one spear/turn/city, which means they add 5 (and lately 6) new units every turn. While I could maybe win this war of attrition the straight-up way, I need a better plan of attack/defense. The current way isn't working well enough.
Here's the situation at the beginning of 1500 AD.
a wee bit violent... if this had happened in real life the iroquios would be hated every where .
have you worked out which islands youll need to dominate? or a guess at least?
"Cut a guy some slack, alright?"
slack cut... and you did give a hefty update... so its all good (Y)
Nicely done indeed Arathorn. Im just getting back into civ and playing monarch. This really puts a perspective on to how much i truly suck at Civ. Well good luck. BTW: you probably wrote this already but do you have t he largest force of units or does America still got you beat?
Last time I checked, I was still weak compared to not only America but to Japan and Mongols as well, according to my military advisor. I've seen approximately a zillion (350, maybe?) units dancing around in Japan, but they're pretty much all archers and spears. There are LOTS of units (over 1000, I'm sure) still running around.
I've not checked F8 in a while. I imagine South Central, Arabia, West America, Southeast America, and a few temple border expansions will get me close to the land area domination limit. I've not decided if I will accept Domination or invade everybody, just to make it feel right. And shoot for Conquest. We'll see.
BTW, I expect bigger slaughter soon. The Arabs must go!
Thank you for the update there. Also i was wondering if you thought the tech is horribly slow, even for always war. Im in a monarch game where the tech is speeding by faster then your game right now. I am currently researching Astronomy in 550AD. Well anyway, awesome for you.
surely always war will make the tech pace slower as AI are more likely to be in monarchy?
Well, the main reason the tech pace is slow is because all the AI civs are paying massive gpt in upkeep for their huge armies. Even with the Sid AI free unit support, an army of 300+ units is a massive drain on the treasury. They simply can't keep up the armies and research at a reasonable rate. Nearly every AI is losing gold and stuck at 0 gold. That only changes when they're expanding (America early) or when I've crushed a lot of their troops (Arabia now).
The reason Egypt and Zululand were competitive in techs early was because of their war. Now, that war also made it easier for me to invade, but their loss of units helped their economy significantly. I almost suspect America and China were at war for a while, too, which would help explain America's tech position even better. No way for me to know, as no cities are "wrong" (e.g. Beijing as an American city is a dead give-away there was a war).
Lately, I've been slowing the tech pace even more, by pillaging their lands and such. And, yes, all the AI's are in Monarchy. With its unit support, the AI sees Monarchy as a better government, as they only lose 100 gpt instead of 200 gpt (or something like that). I compounded it by choosing the mapstyle I did. It worked better than I'd imagined it would.
Tech pace is also somewhat determined by your neighbors. Trading (which the AI does do fairly rapidly), rebates for others knowing the tech, etc. all speed up the tech pace when there is lots of contact. Many of the civs just recently got contact. I've seen boats around. There was a flurry of trading at that point and most of the backward civs gained quite a few techs in fairly short order from the trading window. Fortunately, the contacts and the pillaging will probably about even out in the end.
I see. I thought Sid got a much higher unit bonus for cost then they actually did. Also i had thought everyone had met eachother. One last question. Has anyone formed MA against you, which would keep them at peace w/ each other?? Thanks a bunch.
Not sure how many units Sid AI keeps in background cities as a vanguard, but would it possible to take a good bit of your stacks in Arabia and float them SW to the lump on Arabia's western end? From there you could try to split up/drag their SoDs back to the other half of the island. Not sure how, either take a city and cap it or just harass it to draw more, but in any event thin out the stacks by your cities to the point where you can punch through and grab the choke SW of Anjar again. After that, you could reload the diversion stack back into the boats and in a few turns have them back with the main.
iirc theres not many scientific/commercial civs either are there...
having checked: not a single scientific or commercial civ...
monarchy + no sci/commercial civs + archipalego (sp)+ massive armies.... not surprising really...
Compare this 1525 picture to the 1500 picture. Wee bit of difference, though it might be hard to see since the full stack size doesn't show....
I killed 126 Arab units in those 5 turns, with 8 casualties. I decided I needed to entice the Arabs to attack my attacks were taking too long. SO, both New Owego and New Neodakheat (New Neo? Whats that all about? Call the Department of Redundancy Department over here.) get their builds switched to settlers, cash-rushed to completion, with no excess food, to be settler-abandoned at the end of the turn.
The small stack (only about 8 units) down by New Neodakheat was crushed, too, of course. The main stack (100+ units) is the one SE of the active trebuchet in the 1500 AD shot. I lost no units on this attack.
In 1505, I have only New Gewauga left on Arabia, and the Arabs move towards it in force. I pick off an even dozen units from various places, with a single casualty. But the interturn will be interesting. New Gewauga is not as well defended as it once was and the Arabs have quite a stack.
It got really interesting. By the end, I was down to a 2/4 pike as my top unit. I had 3 hp pikes defending a LOT more than I wouldve liked. But it was all to the good. 37 Arab archers were left splattered at the base of the walls, while only 2 Iroquois units were decimated beyond repair one of musketmen and one of pikemen. Both regiments were elite with long histories of victory and will be mourned.
The lead mourner is the incomparable military genius, Red Cloud, who arose during the fighting actually on only the 5th attack on New Gewauga. He blandly supervised the defense, while not actually contributing. Only in 1510 does he form a new army. Oh, and my road there was finally pillaged!
I can bombard a number of survivors, but choose to hit people retreating south and a group of archers who had moved inexplicably north instead of onto the standard square. I kill 13 with no losses and one MGL gained, but I foolishly sent an MDI out to do a knights job, so hes exposed. Theres still a stack of 20+ by New Gewauga, so I dont even want to risk a musket to cover. I think it would just mean two foolish deaths instead of one.
The brave medieval infantry unit holds off two attacking archers before succumbing to the third. And New Gewauga is left untouched. Not a worthwhile target anymore, even for a dozen archers? Oh well. The disbanding of New Gewauga and New Neodakheat served a good purpose. If theyre not going to attack New Gewauga anymore, though, I may as well just refound the cities. The settlers have been there just waiting.
So I refound them in 1515. I also kill 19 assorted Arab units without a single loss. In fact, I gain a unit from the deal, as yet another MGL appears. What am I going to do with all these armies? 1520 is very similar. 19 Arabs die, but this time 3 Iroquois troops die, too. Suffice it to say, every time one of my troops die, the odds were strongly in my favor. But with so many samples, Im going to lose troops occasionally.
I only kill 15 Arabs in 1525, but it gives me two MGLs. I now have 3 empty armies in New Gewauga, two en route to North Island, two on North Island, and one two-knight army plus two knights headed for West America. I think I can safely dedicate two or even three armies to each enemy island now. Oh, but I did lose a troop. As can be seen, though, Ive mostly cleared out the Arabs from the New Gewauga area. The stack almost hidden by my MDI/musket army is only a half-dozen units or so. I believe Arabia is officially gassed.
While Arabia was the main focus at this time, other things were happening. The battle for Nagoya was interesting. I attacked his regular spear with my vet knight
and died to promote it to 2/4. Another reg spear showed and my second vet knight handled him with ease. When the 2/4 appeared again, I sent in the vet MDI. He red-lined but won. I went ahead and kept Nagoya. My culture is about the same as Japans and Nagoya isnt that much closer. There are no overlap squares to add to flip difficulties and I can keep a couple units handy to re-capture if it does flip. In the meantime, it provides some handy gold for me.
Both Japan and America contributed another pair of slaves to the workforce on Southeast America. Why neither country tried to settle it earlier is a mystery to me, but I appreciated them waiting until I had plenty of trebuchets and knights (and muskets and longbows, but who cares about them?) on hand to turn them into slaves.
The Japanese settler/archer pair on South Central was more interesting. While Id had a city there for a while, a military presence was sorely lacking. Plus, theres iron on South Central and Ive rather enjoyed my run as the only civilization with iron (or saltpeter connected, as far as that goes). I had a single MW on the island and hed been off exploring. Fortunately, the AI is stupid and didnt found right away and try to rush a unit. It didnt even found directly on the iron hill. That wouldve made dislodging it a pain. No, it wandered around for a bit, until my MW could reach it and smite it with a mighty smiting, giving me a couple extra slaves. Another settler is actually on South Central, walking to a better food location. More are queued up, but shields are hard to come by, in most places.
Its been a long time since Ive done a state of the opponents. So, heres an update:
China 4 cities down Monotheism, Gunpowder my mil is AVERAGE
America 11 cities up Music Theory, Navigation my mil is WEAK
Japan 6 cities down Theology, Chivalry, Gunpowder my mil is WEAK
Arabia 6 cities down Education, Gunpowder my mil is STRONG
Mongols 7 cities down Literature, Monotheism, Gunpowder my mil isWEAK
Iroquois 61 cities even even with 261 units costing me 103 gpt in upkeep
A few things I note from this. One is that everybody has Invention now. That means 4/1/1 longbows will become more prevalent, so landings will be about twice as hard as before. That scares me a bit. Of course, the AI civs have no cash for upgrades, so the longbows will be a while in coming. Still, Im a bit worried.
Its good to see America slowing down. They were really getting far ahead there for a while. Theyre about due for another tech, but maybe some of my pillaging is slowing that down, too. Base commerce plays an important role, even when youre spending more than youre making like the AI seems to be. At least muskets arent widespread yet. (I doubt they ever will be. The only one not in my position that I know of is in Mongolia. Even if they get it connected briefly, it will only be for a single city no worries there.) The bigger fear is if/when rifles come on the scene. Its the no-resource unit hordes that are my biggest threat.
To my knowledge, no MA's have been signed against me. I wonder if the AI has ever had enough cash to establish an embassy? MA's against a common foe won't stop one civ from declaring on another, though. To my knowledge, though, the only AI-AI war was the very early Zululand-Egypt war.
I really didn't have enough troops to send south to try to distract. Even a Sid AI won't keep much of a back vanguard -- that requires intelligence which doesn't change from level to level. But each of their cities (5) past the choke will produce a longbow or spear every turn, which means my stack would have to be BIG to survive. And I don't have the boats in the area to make a large landing again. Once the boats do their large landing, they're back to shipping troops to other drop-off points. Quite a few are by Southeast America at this point....wonder what that means...
The whole Arab force is down to about 10 pikes, 4 muskets, 2 knights, 20 trebuchets, 10 MDI, 6 longbow, and the two armies (one of 4 knights, one MDI/muskets mixed). There's not a whole lot of landing force there. Oh, and a few empty armies.
I don't know how well it would've worked, but I think my plan worked just fine! 217 kills in 13 turns with 17 casualties, far from home, is pretty satisfactory.
Yep, no scientific, no commercial, no seafaring. A bit of deck-stacking was definitely involved in the set-up of this game.... Sometimes that's fun. Sometimes playing completely random is fun, too.
Stack-decking or not, the sheer numbers produced by the AI make this effort to this point simply amazing.
We are all cheering for you, Arathorn.
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