I can see why Firaxis didn't make the editor yet

[jpinard]

It's going to be a bear to develop. The modding options "will" be greater than Civ 3 - but the complexity to accomodate this has also increased. Though I desparately want the full editor, it's easy to see why the decision was made to release it later.

I've found this game to be substantially more satisfying and addictive than Civ IV too. I think it's because of the better AI, less ICE, and best of all --- the addition of religion.

 

[homegrown]

The only editor you need is notepad. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't expect anything along the lines of the Civ III editor. You'll end up being disappointed. One, it wouldn't be as powerful as what we can do now, and as you mentioned, would be a bear to develop. Why put time and resources into a project that would actually limit the things designers can do.

The thrust from Firaxis has always been, "fewer, better mods", not the ability for every single yahoo to make mountains passable (just an example).

 

[ShroudedMist]

Why do you think an editor for CivIV is going to be much harder to develop that previous editors? The game itself hasn't changed that drastically. Maps are still made up of a set of tiles. Yes, the graphics have improved but the underlying idea is still similar.

That comment isn't knocking Firaxis for not releasing a richer world editor yet. I'm merely pointing out that the underlying needs of a world editor aren't much different than for previous Civ games.

Homegrown has it right too anyhow. Firaxis has given us a nice format which provides a lot of power. It might seem unwieldly to some people but in the long run it is clearly going to be the best environment yet in which to develop (imho).

 

[Flamegrape]

It seems that it would be fairly easy for a programmer to make their own map editor.

All I'm asking for is a GUI.

 

[Bill3000]

The game itself hasn't changed that drastically. Maps are still made up of a set of tiles.

Funny you should say that, as tiles is one of the things that have changed from Civ2 and 3 - the tiles (which are called plots now) are square, not polygons. Area is L*W, and not L*W/2 now. The game did change drastically - the source code is completely different from Civ3, as it was started from scratch.

 

[jpinard]

Funny you should say that, as tiles is one of the things that have changed from Civ2 and 3 - the tiles (which are called plots now) are square, not polygons. Area is L*W, and not L*W/2 now. The game did change drastically - the source code is completely different from Civ3, as it was started from scratch.

Yea, that really bugs the hell out of me when someone says, "it hasn't changed much from Civ 3". ...see, it's so close to Civ 3 ,that they only had to start from scratch

 

[ShroudedMist]

Bill3000, you're missing my point concerning a map editor.

It's going to be a bear to develop.

Funny you should say that, as tiles is one of the things that have changed from Civ2 and 3 - the tiles (which are called plots now) are square, not polygons. Area is L*W, and not L*W/2 now. The game did change drastically - the source code is completely different from Civ3, as it was started from scratch.

Since there is already a map editor included, my comments are working under the assumption that the original poster was talking about Firaxis making an external map editor.

It doesn't matter if either game uses top-down or isometric views. The underlying idea of a map being a square of X by Y tiles is still exactly the same. They didn't go and scrap the entire map concept when they did a rewrite. They introduced full 3D, XML, Python and the like with CivIV. There are plenty of areas in which technologies actually did change. The underlying design concept for maps surely didn't. It's obvious when one looks at a .wbs file. That concept is what you address when it comes to writing an editor.

Go look at Freeciv. It supports top-down, isometric and hexagonal grid systems. There are also map editors for it. Take those style of ideas, update them to include the new gameplay changes and add the shiny new 3d graphics in lieu of bitmaps and you have yourself an external editor. OK, so that's an oversimplification but hopefully you see my point.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

The SDK and possibly editor have not been released right away because Firaxis had two choices.

1) Delay the release of the game several months to appease a fraction of the game community to the frustration of everyone else.

2) Release the game first. Let everybody play it including those who want to mod it, actually get paid and then give the modders what they want later because, if you think about it, whether releasing the game in February or releasing the SDK in February, we weren't doing any modding till February...

They wisely chose #2

 

[Aeon221]

Or, more wisely, they could have held till late november, done more diversified machine testing, and saved me three whole ours of nail biting terror as I tried to make this thing work ;p

It shouldn't be mind bogglingly difficult, but then again I don't get paid to do this for a living.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Is firaxis going to release a good editor so people who just want to add units, buildings and wonders, civs techs etc like in civ3 and not change the entire game will be able to do that again?

 

[Jecrell]

Some people are lazy and don't want to go through all the XML, but if you go through it you can really personalize what you want to change and how you can customize it. You can also customize it so such great lengths that it doesn't limit the possibilities.

An editor would be nice, but I'd rather they work on the patches because we've already got what we need. If you don't understand something... ASK!
We're all here to help each other!!

 

[vbraun]

Also they didn't becasue XML in general is really easy to work with so someone in the community could make their own tool to do this. (Hint Hint)

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Hell... somebody could just make a website that'll use HTML to display XML quite nicely.

 

[macsbug]

Mmmhmmm - and I suppose they didn't release any documentation so as not to deny us the joy sifting through every single bloody XML and python file trying to determine IF there is a way to change a specific aspect of the game, right?

The fact is, Firaxis isn't holding back the SDK because they think it needs more "polish" - they're holding it back because releasing it would hurt their sales. Better to do it when it no longer matters.

 

[ShroudedMist]

No, better to not delay the release of your game and as a result lose out on Christmas sales which are the most important of the year. The fact is Firaxis did include a map editor as it is. People simply want a better one.

 

[macsbug]

No, better to not delay the release of your game and as a result lose out on Christmas sales which are the most important of the year. The fact is Firaxis did include a map editor as it is. People simply want a better one.

You're deluding yourself if you believe they're currently "polishing" the SDK. Firaxis will release the SDK in whatever form it is currently in - continuing to work on it no longer makes any sort of financial sense. Given that, the only reason why they aren't releasing the SDK is because it would have hurt their sales - in other words, it won't likely be what many of you are expecting, and you’ll likely be disappointed when it is released.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

Given that, the only reason why they aren't releasing the SDK is because it would have hurt their sales - in other words, it won't likely be what many of you are expecting, and you’ll likely be disappointed when it is released.

It wouldn't have hurt their sales at all. I know diehards have a hard time understanding this but the portion of modders/editors who buy a big commerical game like this is very small. Even Bioware and Atari will attest to the fact that, despite a mod/user community of over a million for Neverwinter Nights, the majority of consumers simply use the product out of the box.

Couple this with the idea that a bad editor still wouldn't have dissuaded most of that small modder market from buying the game in any case, and the result is an absolutely negligible impact on sales.

The idea of a better editor does make financial sense (just like Atari/Bioware adding free content to NWN after it's release) because Firaxis plans to introduce expansions, and as they've done in the past, future 'gold' editions maye contain user-made content that costs them nothing beyond the cost of providing development tools.

 

[ShroudedMist]

macsbug, don't put words into my mouth. I said nothing about Firaxis polishing the SDK. I stated that technically they've already provided us with an in-game editor and ample access to modding possibilities via the python/xml interface.

The whole gist of your comments is away from the initial subject put forward by the original poster which concerned the difficulty of developing a new map editor.

 

[NP300]

You're deluding yourself if you believe they're currently "polishing" the SDK. Firaxis will release the SDK in whatever form it is currently in - continuing to work on it no longer makes any sort of financial sense. Given that, the only reason why they aren't releasing the SDK is because it would have hurt their sales - in other words, it won't likely be what many of you are expecting, and you’ll likely be disappointed when it is released.

I don't see why releasing the SDK doesn't make financial sense for them. On the contrary, I think it makes a lot of sense. Modders create mods which add value to the game. When the game has all these cool mods, more people will want to play it. This means more sales. So it does make financial sense for them to make modding easier.

Furthermore, it doesn't have to cost them too many resources. Firaxis must have some internal tools that they are using. A good editor would make their own modding for the expansions easier.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

You're deluding yourself if you believe they're currently "polishing" the SDK. Firaxis will release the SDK in whatever form it is currently in - continuing to work on it no longer makes any sort of financial sense. Given that, the only reason why they aren't releasing the SDK is because it would have hurt their sales - in other words, it won't likely be what many of you are expecting, and you’ll likely be disappointed when it is released.

So you're saying that they have a completed SDK (had it before the game was even released) but held it back because they were afraid that if modders saw it, they wouldn't buy the game and thus it would've hurt their sales? Right... and you're criticizing him for deluding himself... watch out for the black helicopters on your way home too... you don't want them shutting you up for telling it like it is.