I can't get how to properly use the leader traits+UU+UB combo

[TaPele]

I'm trying to improve in Civ IV, but I can't get how to focus and get the most out of the LT+UU+UB combo. In Civ V and Civ VI these combos were huge advantages and clearly pointed towards a certain kind of victory. But in Civ IV bonuses aren't that overpowered, I mean, build twice as fast a few buildings isn't that thing, but having +3 combat strength in your cavalry units (as Genghis Khan has in Civ VI) does make a huge difference.

My question is: how do you play to effectively use this combo and turn the odds in your favour?

Hope you get my point.

 

[sampsa]

You are correct in that most UU/UB don't matter much. Especially latter, though there are a few good ones. Traits and arguably even starting techs make a bigger impact.

 

[TaPele]

You are correct in that most UU/UB don't matter much. Especially latter, though there are a few good ones. Traits and arguably even starting techs make a bigger impact.

Right. I forgot to include that!. Hence, also, how to play taking advantage of LT+UU+UB+Starting tehcs (though the latter kinda speaks for itself how they have to be used)

 

[Henrik75]

aggressive and protective might give more incentive to drafting muskets/rifles whereas financial boosts bureaucracy more.
imp/exp allow you to spam cities quicker and/or develop them quicker to claim good quality land in potentially contested areas, even if it crashes your economy as long as you get to pottery it will pay back (if we are talking rivers/high food spots).
creative is a hit or miss, can help place cities better to claim more resource, not have to stress about fighting over a resource in between 2 cities, and makes ocean fish actually really good and worth going for (saves like 15 turns on getting fish hooked up).
charismatic allows you to skip monarchy for a while
phi allows you to use first scientist for academy without even thinking because you can just get another if you want to bulb
FIN allows you to just run away in tech on anything below deity and get out of hot situations by trading techs/bribing, its the best trait
org makes courthouses worth going for early otherwise they're only really worth it after you've conquered somebody and aren't close to communism, and still cost a ton of hammers.
spiritual allows you to constantly change civics without stressing optimal time and anarchy turns, and allows you to take advantage of going into vassalage for 5 turns while building many units then swapping back out, drafting for 5 turns then swapping back out, essentially not worth taking 2 turns of anarchy for otherwise.
industrious allows you to build wonders freely even without resource to get free 1:1.5 hammers to gold ratio early on, and saves some time on wonders you do want. makes forges very cheap and worth whipping in every city for 2 pop.

UUs/UBs well some are cheesy which you can take advantage of to crush AI early on like quechua, war chariot, immortal, praetorian. Others are situational and can be good or fun to play around with.

 

[TaPele]

Thanks! It helps a lot. But my point is the following: I do not see building a couple of buildings faster as a game-changing advantage. At the end of the day, no matter your treats, you'll have those buildings too. I can't think how to use that either. Maybe by not whipping or not chopping those buildings? Maybe that's the advantage?

 

[lymond]

I'm trying to improve in Civ IV....

I haven't read Henrik good post yet thoroughly, but I would emphasize that if you are newer to the game and looking to improve that you can almost completely ignore traits and UUs/UBs. Learn basic mechanics and early game strategies first, and they will pay off the most in every game you play. Later you can start to apply the benefit of certain traits, or taking advantage of certain UUs (there's really only a select few that can make a difference in a game). Most UBs are not worth much but some have some good benefits in a longer game.

Honestly, when new players come on here we often recommend playing with leaders like Toku (really bad traits) and Washington (a good trait combo that works mostly passively). And both have UU/UBs that come rather late, so can essentially be ignored. The point being, again, that you really focus less and these distractions and more on important concepts.

Good starting techs are indeed very nice to have, like AG/Mining being tops. Next would be like AG/TW like the French, Babs and Sumer.

 

[lymond]

Thanks! It helps a lot. But my point is the following: I do not see building a couple of buildings faster as a game-changing advantage. At the end of the day, no matter your treats, you'll have those buildings too. I can't think how to use that either. Maybe by not whipping or not chopping those buildings? Maybe that's the advantage?

Expansive fast granary and Creative fast Library are very very good bonuses that pay off early. Granaries are by far the most important building, so getting them up really fast pays off hugely in this game. FOOD is king in Civ IV and FOOD=PRODUCTION. The granary plays a vital role in that concept.

Creative Libraries are very easy to chop out or use some whip overflow to complete. You'll get more savvy with this stuff as you get experience.

One key thing to remember, and why these early bonuses are nice, is that the early game is soooo important. The more stuff you get early the more it snowballs later.

 

[TaPele]

that if you are newer to the game and looking to improve that you can almost completely ignore traits and UUs/UBs.

Oh, I see. I played roughly ten years ago some ten-ish games. Only won one in Noble IIRC. Now I'm struggling in Prince... I'm sure you all can win Prince blindfolded XD

I'm also watching YouTube videos to see how other players play. In fact, I've just noticed that Henrik is here lol. I'm watching your videos @Henrik75

 

[AcaMetis]

One important lesson RE: UU/UB and even traits: Play the map, not the leader. Gilgamesh should not attempt to go for early rushes every game just because he's got a UU axe and a UB that (on paper, even if not in practice) plays into rushing someone early. Rush someone early when the opportunity presents itself, or when the map calls for it. It might seem counterproductive to not play into your advantages, but said advantages can lead you down the wrong path at times - you might look at Catherine and think "settle right in everyone's face and bully them out of their border territories, that'll weaken them and make me stronger", but in practise that's just a great way to get the warmongers to start plotting, and getting dogpiled could easily lead to a loss.

 

[Fippy]

Expansive is really good for learning, pointing you towards granaries and workers (which are both most important in the buildings & units categories).

You can have some fun with the early UUs like War Chariots & Immortals.
1 more strength is huge while AIs are not ready for war at all yet, and 50% vs Archers makes taking cities much easier.
So settling for horsies with Egypt or Persia becomes more valuable. Combined with chopping you can make some nasty early armies

There are only a couple really helpful UBs.
Ikhanda makes every city a bit cheaper in maintenance (and doesn't cost many with aggressive).
Sac. Altar for Monty means you can whip as much as you want later.
Trading Posts are great on water maps.
Rathaus makes even the most expensive colony affordable.
Terraces are an overpowered building, Huayna doesn't have to worry about border pops.

After those, UB quality drops significantly.
But how much can the good ones change your strategy?
Ikhanda really doesn't Play as normal and enjoy some more gpt.
Sac. Altar can in high cities, you might just whip in something extra. But otherwise do what you normally would, with less worry about whip anger.
Trading Posts usually are automatic, if a city wants extra LH you also get faster ships from there.
Rathaus might swing you towards keeping / founding cities that otherwise would be too expensive (for example on different landmasses).
And Terraces allow you to settle all cities in their optimal locations, without worrying about their border pop.

 

[TaPele]

Play the map, not the leader

Nice tip. Actually, I think I failed in my last game because of not playing the map. I was playing as Hatshepsut and wanted an early rush with War Chariots. I had Portugal south, but our borders weren't touching each other. Bad decision making in terms of how to use workers and the fact I simply stuck to the early rush because of using thse UU and several turns passed. Also, didn't notice Joao had copper (I did not) so when my small army reached his capital it was with a bunch of archers and later spearmen arrived. So I spent a lot of turns pillaging his land, preventing the new units from arriving and so on that in the end it was a huge mistake I think. I finally did take Lisboa, but other neighbours had already expanded and tehced and I was sitting on the coast...

 

[lymond]

Nice tip. Actually, I think I failed in my last game because of not playing the map. I was playing as Hatshepsut and wanted an early rush with War Chariots. I had Portugal south, but our borders weren't touching each other. Bad decision making in terms of how to use workers and the fact I simply stuck to the early rush because of using thse UU and several turns passed. Also, didn't notice Joao had copper (I did not) so when my small army reached his capital it was with a bunch of archers and later spearmen arrived. So I spent a lot of turns pillaging his land, preventing the new units from arriving and so on that in the end it was a huge mistake I think. I finally did take Lisboa, but other neighbours had already expanded and tehced and I was sitting on the coast...

Not sure how the border touching was applicable, but the main issue (not knowing details) was just execution...and speed of execution. WC rushes are usually done with 1 or 2 cities, depending on securing horses. Then whip and chop.

You should scout out the target as best as possible before attacking. Trade screen can tell what resources they have that you don't (if trade network is open). OR, a nice little trick is to open dialogue with the target. You may have to do this several times to get the right quote, but when the AI speaks at some point they will tell you what is their best unit. Something like "We are sending an army of Axes your way..haha".

It is ideal to WC a target without metals, but if they do have metals try to target and pillage it immediately. Then it should be smooth sailing for the most part, although they might have built a spear or two that you have to knock out. BUT if you let them keep access to metals, they will build spears constantly if threatened by mounted units.

 

[drewisfat]

At the end of the day, no matter your treats, you'll have those buildings too.

I think that's the major misconception players have while learning the game, or if you get your advice on Reddit
Most new players build way too much infrastructure, because there's no maintenance cost like in civ 5 (civ 6?) and all buildings run a profit eventually. However, this ignores opportunity cost, generally of building wealth or units. Traits and uniques can certainly affect this. It's been a long time since I've built a university when I wasn't PHI. Sampsa, an infamous forge hater, will still spam them when he's IND, etc. With Carthage I'm more likely to go for Compass early as trade bait. Even with granaries, which you build everywhere, Terrace means I'll never build monuments and am less likely to build or rush libraries. If I roll a FIN leader I'm cottaging everywhere. Not even hills are safe. Leader flair can certainly affect what you prioritize, but not always. Some are basically pointless and some are map dependent.

Also, the reason traits don't fundamentally dictate victory conditions is that not all victory conditions are made equally. You can win religious victory with AP cheese in the early BCs, and in general it's pretty hard to lose a culture victory attempt if you know what you're doing. This isn't unique to civ 4, balance of victory conditions is an issue in every civ iteration. That's why when comparing results against humans you generally only compare within victory conditions, and when playing by yourself experienced players will set limitations on what they consider "winning" to be. For instance, Lain doesn't consider using nukes an honorable victory, while I don't consider using the UN an honorable victory.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

It is common to not use your UU or UB for the entire game. It does not mean the UU or UB is useless in general. Every turn there are many units and city improvements to choose from. Most are useless in most maps and situations. UUs and UBs offer additional options for specific situations. If you want a UU that you always get to use... fast worker!

Traits do change gameplay. IMHO expansive is the most subtle.

In my opinion, for the difficulty levels that the OP plays at, starting techs do not make a difference. Only on immortal or deity do they make a big difference. The only big one is mysticism, if you want to found Buddhism or Hinduism, but that's usually a bad strategy anyway.

*****

Off topic: I never heard Lain say anything about nukes being dishonourable. Nukes are not easy to use because of bomb shelters and the SDI. Once nukes are used it's always war. 3 to 4 nukes and one fully-loaded transport of units is needed to capture and raze each coastal city. All enemy coastal cities must be razed on the first turn to nullify counter-attacks. That's a lot of nuke and units to produce and to maintain. Usually someone wins by culture or space before you are ready.

 

[Lennier]

Maybe drewisfat is confusing me with Lain? (I should be so honored.) But I describe having to use nukes to win as aesthetically displeasing.

 

[sampsa]

I think Lain said it somewhere in the videos.

 

[drewisfat]

"I have never used them in an online game, just because they are pretty overpowered. I'm kinda happy actually I've never had to use them." in the impossible charlie vid. In a hard game you can't expect to carry a tech advantage into the modern era. If you don't have the production capacity to conquer all the AIs outright before culture/space victories come in, your viable paths are nukes or UN. This is pretty common when most of the AI are overseas and there's a runaway or you've been struggling.

 

[ArchGhost]

I'm trying to improve in Civ IV, but I can't get how to focus and get the most out of the LT+UU+UB combo. In Civ V and Civ VI these combos were huge advantages and clearly pointed towards a certain kind of victory. But in Civ IV bonuses aren't that overpowered, I mean, build twice as fast a few buildings isn't that thing, but having +3 combat strength in your cavalry units (as Genghis Khan has in Civ VI) does make a huge difference.

My question is: how do you play to effectively use this combo and turn the odds in your favour?

Hope you get my point.

Right. I forgot to include that!. Hence, also, how to play taking advantage of LT+UU+UB+Starting tehcs (though the latter kinda speaks for itself how they have to be used)

As I only sorta know a bit about Civ6 other than Civ4 and CivRev....

yeah Civ6 pushes you much, MUCH harder into thematic choices on victory types, buildings/districts, and even tile improvements based on your leader. And there are much more way in the way of trade-offs due to district locations and buildings having maintenance. No such thing exists for like 95% of Civ4 and you don't ever need to lean into what a leader does best in Civ4 as long as you cover the fundamental bases. If you WANT to pull off a thematic strategy like this, there are options available like Egypt's war chariots, the Incan Quechua nonsense, Viking Berserker raiding etc. with varying levels of impact and success...but you are never pigeonholed into such things.

In fact as you move up the difficulties in Civ4, there's less "messing around" that you do in regards to development, tech choices, diplomacy etc. and more normalization as the AI will bury you, if you don't what you are doing, with their handicaps. The chief reason I don't like playing on Deity is it is so seemingly rigid in this way if you want to win, and I don't have nearly the grasp of this game to force a little alternative spice into it like I can just one difficulty lower.

Land is power, food is king, and armies win games in Civ4. About as basic as it gets. But as drewisfat gave some examples of, this doesn't mean you can't play into certain focuses of a leader or civ to make those fundamentals happen. It just won't be your primary focus like a super-fast science win with Korea or Russia in Civ6, it will just be a stone stepped on to the rest your goals throughout the game.

Starting techs are easy. Food is most important, then production, then anything else. Accordingly Agriculture and Mining are the best techs, and the best way to utilize your starting techs in any start location is improve your food, get producing on settlers, and tech what you need along the way. There is a very cut and dry hierarchy on the usefulness of starting techs that is dictated by where you start. Example: Fishing is better on Archipelago than normal, but may be entirely useless on a Pangaea in an extreme case. etc. etc.

If you want a run-down on how to best use traits, just search up any of the "best/worst trait" or "trait tier/ranking" threads on here for plenty of discussion of the traits' strengths and weaknesses.

Uniques are very hit and miss, and I'd only really consider a few of them so impactful that you could be crutching on them...mostly the Quechua, War Chariot and to a lesser extent the Fast Worker or Praetorian which even has a reputation for it. As for buildings only really the Terrace, I guess, fundamentally changes things in an impactful way in the early game, but HC already starts with Monument access so it wouldn't be a huge issue anyway. Weaker examples would be the Ikhanda (it's not THAT good) or the various courthouse UBs like Sacrificial Altar, Rathaus, and Ziggurat.


As for specific complaints (observations?) about certain discounts and UUs/UBs lacking impact...well it heavily depends on exactly WHAT the example is and how important it is, especially at the stage of the game it's being evaluated.

Cheap Temples from SPI or Cheap Universities from PHI? Yeah, not so great as temples are already cheap and you can win the game before universities would even be relevant.
Cheap Granaries from EXP? Quite a bit better, as you will be putting a Granary in every city and they are one of the earliest buildings.

Cheap IND Forges when you are still REXing? Maybe not so great
Cheap IND Forges when you are in full whipping unit production/war mode? Amazing.

A Unique Marine unit? So late in the game, it's pretty pathetic.
A Unique Worker or Warrior unit? Especially that can upset the balance of the normal unit? Game breaking.

A trickier one: A Unique Cuirassier? kinda late right? How good can that be? Well with a counter-melee inherent ability and the ability to gain defensive boni...it TRUCKS everything in the era it is used in until Rifling rears its head.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Oh, I see. I played roughly ten years ago some ten-ish games. Only won one in Noble IIRC. Now I'm struggling in Prince... I'm sure you all can win Prince blindfolded XD

I'm also watching YouTube videos to see how other players play. In fact, I've just noticed that Henrik is here lol. I'm watching your videos @Henrik75

Glad the OP found Henrik videos. General good gameplay - - (to critics: have you tried talking and playing at the same time?).

Although... the OP seems to UUs and UBs, and on second-thought I do think some maps allow the RTS-style "rush to XXX" strategies.

For example, in a recent video, Henrik went "cataphract rush" and reached guilds by turn 135 (500AD) on immortal difficulty. He used cataphracts but I don't think it was a "rush". "Rushing", to me, means: 1) getting the unit sooner, 2) weaker economy, 3) other long-term sacrifices.

Spoiler :

Standard settings, immortal difficulty, "Lakes" map. The "build order" is irrelevant to the thread and thus omitted.