It depends on what type of person you are. If I played at Immortal I'd stop playing the game all together. It's all about what you want to get from the time you have to play the game. I can see my skills developing, I just want too enjoy the game as I do it.
I can't win on prince...
- Thread starter IRepko
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It depends on what type of person you are. If I played at Immortal I'd stop playing the game all together. It's all about what you want to get from the time you have to play the game. I can see my skills developing, I just want too enjoy the game as I do it.
Read my next post, I am not advocating a flat grassland cap, just saying to grow your cities and production will take care of itself. And no I have never settled like that mainly because it does not happen to have 108 or whatever tiles it is of grass. I also haven't built a uni in cap with production in a long time either. And you cope in the usual manner, rush buy buildings, but it's so hypothetical anyway. My post was intelation to "Production, production, production." as if that was the pinnacle of strategy.
The Pilgrim
Deity
There is not much of skill developing below prince. Civ5 AI is really bad, any level that gives a human player bonuses has near to zero educational potential.
Completely disagree with that sentiment. When I started playing the game I struggled at Warlord, now I win consistently on King. Playing at the lower levels helped me develop a play style. Playing at a level where you van't win teaches you very little, other than you suck at that level....
Unresolved
King
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2012
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- 956
Playing at a lower level also teaches you the wrong skills. Stuff that you'll have to unlearn as you progress further into the higher difficulties. Wonder-spamming, neglecting units, inefficient combat tactics, etc...
IAmOzymandias
Warlord
I agree that the best way to learn civ V is a trial under fire. That being said it's much easier if you get proper "what to do" tips rather than saying "WILL IT WORK WELL IF I BUILD FORTY ARCHERS TO DEFEND EVERY SQUARE OF MY TERRITORY, LET ME TAKE 4 HOURS TO TRY IT."
because, you know. . .
that won't work.
Also, Sometimes on higher difficulty levels, you might be doing the right thing and still losing, for another reason. Maybe you don't have good land to settle, maybe you can't expand because you don't have enough lux, maybe your neighbours are all warlike douchebags declaring chain wars. You can appear to be doing the wrong thing in civ whereas it's just a bad map roll, etc.
because, you know. . .
that won't work.
Also, Sometimes on higher difficulty levels, you might be doing the right thing and still losing, for another reason. Maybe you don't have good land to settle, maybe you can't expand because you don't have enough lux, maybe your neighbours are all warlike douchebags declaring chain wars. You can appear to be doing the wrong thing in civ whereas it's just a bad map roll, etc.
Have you ever gone into a French lesson and the tutor refuses to speak anything other than French ? You learn very little....
My point being, if you play a game and can't progress, you're in the same boat. I've learnt that to go up the scale I must get proficient at the level I'm on now to succeed.
Maybe I'm just bad at the game, but throwing people in too deep achieves very little in my opinion....
Syailendra
Prince
to OP, please listen to the pilgrims advice, he is one of the maestro of this game.
SirPepsi
Warlord
In response, I'd like to say that in the games I've played Production has always been the key to winning. Growth and Science come naturally over time and can be improved via libraries, NC, universities, etc., but I have played and consistently discover that high production makes for a fantastic game.
In my current game, I'm playing as the Iroqois on an Archipelago, Standard-sized map. I was behind in science and score for the majority of the game (as you usually are on higher levels), and Ethiopia managed to overrun my lands with missionaries. I had the sixth largest (out of eight) military, but my high production in every city allowed me to pump out 2-3 battleships every 3-4 turns. I attacked Mongolia and captured Kuala Lumpur (CS they had annexed) and responded to an Ethiopian buildup of carriers on my border. Sunk ~12 planes and boats and captured Addis Ababba - my score went from 887 (in third) to 1246 (in first) and Haile Saleisse dropped from first to seventh. Addis Abbaba was wonder capital of the world and had 3 manufacturing buildings planted on the surrounding terrain. I then launched a second wave at Mongolia and captured both Beshbalik and Karakoram.
I maintain that I only managed to do this through the lighting-fast production I had in my first 4 cities. Growth is dandy, but without production it's useless.
As to improvement order, I'd recommend building:
1) Farms on Wheat sources
2) Pastures
3) Luxes
4) Quarries and Mines
5) Fish
In my current game, I'm playing as the Iroqois on an Archipelago, Standard-sized map. I was behind in science and score for the majority of the game (as you usually are on higher levels), and Ethiopia managed to overrun my lands with missionaries. I had the sixth largest (out of eight) military, but my high production in every city allowed me to pump out 2-3 battleships every 3-4 turns. I attacked Mongolia and captured Kuala Lumpur (CS they had annexed) and responded to an Ethiopian buildup of carriers on my border. Sunk ~12 planes and boats and captured Addis Ababba - my score went from 887 (in third) to 1246 (in first) and Haile Saleisse dropped from first to seventh. Addis Abbaba was wonder capital of the world and had 3 manufacturing buildings planted on the surrounding terrain. I then launched a second wave at Mongolia and captured both Beshbalik and Karakoram.
I maintain that I only managed to do this through the lighting-fast production I had in my first 4 cities. Growth is dandy, but without production it's useless.
As to improvement order, I'd recommend building:
1) Farms on Wheat sources
2) Pastures
3) Luxes
4) Quarries and Mines
5) Fish
The Pilgrim
Deity
By attending a class where they teach you bad grammar you won't achieve much either. Prince is not deep.
I won't even dare to ask where you get this idea from, but I'm most certainly not. However, I do remember times when I thought anything above standard difficulty was not supposed to be played by humans. And that had nothing to do with lack of practice, but only with zero knowledge of game mechanics. 
Now imagine how your game would have looked like, had you had not only higher production but also advanced units.
Syailendra
Prince
haha, just can't take it when some people do argue with you over undebateable fact.
SirPepsi
Warlord
Admitted, Pilgrim - the game is ongoing, and I managed to take on the number one military power (Arabia) with my fleet of relentless Battleships, subs, and destroyers (and only those units) and capture (then recapture) Baghdad and finally sack Mecca.
I launched this invasion primarily b/c Arabia was so far ahead in tech, they had completed all 3 boosters and were undoubtedly working on the cockpit. My tech wasn't too far behind, however, and when I did unlock Rocketry I was able to build the Apollo Program in 5 turns
I launched this invasion primarily b/c Arabia was so far ahead in tech, they had completed all 3 boosters and were undoubtedly working on the cockpit. My tech wasn't too far behind, however, and when I did unlock Rocketry I was able to build the Apollo Program in 5 turns
Unresolved
King
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2012
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- 956
Actually, I have. AP French was brutal. But I learned enough in that class that French in college was a breeze.
I'm not saying that one should jump immediately into Immortal, but a little challenge does help a lot in the learning development.
Admitted, Pilgrim - the game is ongoing, and I managed to take on the number one military power (Arabia) with my fleet of relentless Battleships, subs, and destroyers (and only those units) and capture (then recapture) Baghdad and finally sack Mecca.
I launched this invasion primarily b/c Arabia was so far ahead in tech, they had completed all 3 boosters and were undoubtedly working on the cockpit. My tech wasn't too far behind, however, and when I did unlock Rocketry I was able to build the Apollo Program in 5 turns
And what turn was that on if I might ask. And the level of difficulty is that higher level game. It seems to drag on, a water map with Apollo built on it. Most water maps are over by that time by frigate rush, but you need decent science for that and that comes from..... But I won't beat a dead horse (I have seen a cool smiley like that)
As an aside, I don't think I have built a BS yet in any of my games. But definitely won some using them. And my latest Apollo took 8 turns, no prebuilt in a cap that basically never worked any mine tiles over food except for few brief attempts to grab Petra and Big Ben. I will take a pre t 200 Apollo in ten turns over 5 turn one at turn.... Please let us know.
If anyone is reading this and paying attention, a more beneficial IO would be:
1. Luxes
2. Farms on Wheat sources
3. Fish if you have GoTS if not then
4. Strategic Rez
5. Pastures
5. Q and M
SirPepsi
Warlord
I should have specified that the IO I recommended was for the first or second city. Not having the tech for the Lux is what impedes improving them. Since you start with AG, farms on wheat are best, pastures follow if you go through the AH line - by now pop is booming, so Luxes are needed for happiness. Then, mines and quarries for extra luxes (marble, silver, gold) and for hammers - finally (unless you're playing Archipelago/Islands, go for sailing and nab fish).
Of course, each game is different and you have to prioritize - I just made a broad statement of what my course of improvement usually is.
I should have kept my Shesong save to upload it
An entire flat grassland...nothing else.And we agree that "Production, production, production" is not the pinacle of strategy, but: "Science,growth, war"
Anyway indeed all are hypothetical, but production, is a very very important factor. In fact the Maya can demonstrate this quite easily with all those hammers their farms produce. Even a petra/plains start with a couple of hill nearby can be a good productive city.
So you advocate that one should play at a high level before he learns the mechanics of the game? Excuse me but there is a natural order to things. Just as a baby needs to learn how to walk so a civ player must learn when to plant his settlers (example) and use science and growth (another example). Once you get there you turn to your parents (elite/pro players) and they teach you the advanced tricks if you cant find them out for yourself. Tutoring and experiencing at the same time is the best way to learn anything, even CiV.
I knew the INCA were going to brought in into this discussion, and they actually demonstrate my point. The production was always there in those hills. It's the extra food that make them viable. I will always work riverside hill farms which is closest other civs can get to incan terrace without Petra.
And I do have an example for your competely flat grass start. It's on DC 23, but it's a made map and I was looking for some difficult start for those who were finding deity challenges too easy. I won't be able to demonstrate the superiority of growth over production as I am starving all my cities to sell luxes and have a empire based on that.
I am speaking from experience, I used to focus on production too, but switching to growth, building an early army and not wasting gold on CS but instead allying through quests has allowed me to raise my game to a higher level. Another subtle mental shift that comes from prioritizing growth is that it takes forever to build anything, so you think really hard about what to build and don't squander it.
Yet again I will repeat that growth is a strong player, but not with equal or at least partially equal production. Do me a favor cause I cant load games right now and therefore I don't keep saves. Start a map with settings to get it all as flat and jungly as possible. Then cut down all those jungles and make them TP. Then start a game doing the opposite (hills) and then tell me on can work without the other.
EDIT: I changed my entire strategy in MP games, when I found out about ToA, but even with that you need a good production base.
EDIT: I changed my entire strategy in MP games, when I found out about ToA, but even with that you need a good production base.
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