I don't like the Civ 5 rivers ... the Civ 4 rivers flowed

Battle of Bạch Đằng River (938)

At the Battle of Bạch Đằng River in 938 the Vietnamese forces, led by Ngô Quyền, defeated the invading forces of the Southern Han of China and put an end to Chinese imperial domination of the Vietnamese. It took place at the Bach Dang River, near Halong Bay in northern Vietnam.



In 937, Liu Yan (called Lưu Nham in Vietnamese), the Southern Han ruler, took the chance to intervene in Vietnam again after the death of the Vietnamese patriot Dương Đình Nghệ. He had been foiled by Dương Đình Nghệ in 931, but now that Dương Đình Nghệ was dead, he thought the time was ripe for another attempt. He placed his own son, Liu Hongcao (劉弘操; Vietnamese: Lưu Hoằng Tháo), in command of the expedition, naming him "Peaceful Sea Military Governor" and "King of Giao." He hastily assembled an army at Sea Gate, where he personally took charge of the reserve force.[citation needed] He ordered Liu Hongcao to embark the army and sail to Giao.

By the time Liu Hongcao arrived in Vietnamese waters with the Southern Han expedition, Liu Hongcao's plan was to ascend the Bạch Đằng River (白藤江) and to place his army in the heart of Giao before disembarking; the Bạch Đằng was the major riverine route into the Red River plain from the north.

Ngô Quyền anticipated this plan and brought his army to the mouth of the river. He had his men plant a barrier of large poles in the bed of the river. The tops of the poles reached just below the water level at high tide and were sharpened and tipped with iron. When Liu Hongcao appeared off the mouth of the river, Quyen sent out small, shallow-draft boats at high tide to provoke a fight and then retreat upriver, drawing the Chinese fleet in pursuit. As the tide fell, the heavy Chinese warboats were caught on the poles and lay trapped in the middle of the river, whereupon they were attacked by Ngô Quyền. More than half the Chinese were drowned, including Liu Hongcao. When news of the battle reached Sea Gate with the survivors, Liu Kung wept openly. He collected what remained of his army and returned to Canton. This victory ended China's long domination of Vietnam and began Vietnam's period of "relative autonomy." Ngô Quyền's tactic would later be copied by Trần Hưng Đạo against the Mongols in a later battle at Bạch Đằng River in 1288.

The Bạch Đằng victory in 938 put an end to the period of Chinese imperial domination. In 939, Ngô Quyền proclaimed himself king of Vietnam, established his capital at Cổ Loa (previously a capital in the 3rd century BC) and set up a centralized government.

Battle of Bạch Đằng (1288)

The Battle of Bạch Đằng, which took place at the Bach Dang River, near Ha Long Bay in present-day northern Vietnam, was a battle between Đại Việt and the invading army of the Yuan Dynasty. It's considered part of the Third Mongol Invasion (1287-88).

In 1288 after the evacuation from the capital Thăng Long (present-day Hanoi), Đại Việt's Grand Commander Trần Hưng Đạo decided to launch an offensive against the Mongolians on the Bạch Đằng River and immediately set to organize the battle.

The Bạch Đằng River ran through Yen Hung district (in Quảng Ninh province) and Thuy Nguyen (in Hai Phong) before reaching the sea. This is where the well-known battle of Ngô Quyền against the Southern Han (Nanhan) took place in 938 A.D. It was from March, Trần Hưng Đạo was already there to prepare the battlefield. He borrowed the same tactic that Ngô Quyền used against the Chinese in 938. He studied the tidal law, had beds of stakes planted under the water and arranged ambushes in a unified plan of campaign.

As was foreseen, the Mongolians in Thăng Long suffered an acute shortage of food. Without any news about the supply fleet, Prince Toghan found himself in a tight corner and had to order his army to retreat to Vạn Kiếp. This was when Đại Việt's Army began the general offensive by recapturing a number of locations occupied by the Mongol invaders. Groups of partisans were given orders to harass the enemy in Vạn Kiếp, putting them at a loss. Toghan had to split his army into two and retreat.

In early April the supply fleet led by Omar and escorted by infantry fled home along the Bạch Đằng river. As bridges and roads were destroyed and attacks were launched by Đại Việt's troops, the Mongols reached Bạch Đằng. Đại Việt's small flotilla engaged in battle and pretended to retreat. The Mongols eagerly pursued Đại Việt troops and fell into their pre-arranged battlefield. Thousands of Đại Việt's small boats from both banks quickly appeared, fiercely launched the attack and broke the combat formation of the enemy. Inflicted with a sudden and strong attack, the Mongols tried to withdraw to the sea in panic. Hitting the stakes, their boats were halted, many of which were broken and sunken. At that time, a number of fire rafts quickly rushed toward them. Frightened, the Mongolian troops jumped down to get to the banks where they were dealt a heavy blow by a big army led by the Trần king and Trần Hưng Đạo.

The Mongolian supply fleet was totally destroyed. Omar was captured.

At the same time, Đại Việt's Army made continuous attacks and smashed to pieces Toghan’s army on its route of withdrawal through Lạng Sơn. Toghan risked his life making a shortcut through forests to flee home.

The Battle of Bạch Đằng went down as one of the greatest victories in Vietnamese military history and is a well-known event in Vietnam. Vietnam was the only country in the world then that successfully defeated the Mongol Hordes and their invasion three times in a row.

In 1959 during excavation works in Yen Giang commune, Vietnamese archaeologists found the sharpened stakes that were used during the campaign in 1288
 
There are a lot of battles that occur at the mouths of rivers, simply because one side wanted to prevent the other from seizing control to allow armies to move down in transports.
 
River boats simply are not effective enough to warrant inclusion, please tell me how the German navy was supposed to sail up the Thames to whack London. Maybe a movement bonus for moving along a river, prior to the modern era.
 
River boats simply are not effective enough to warrant inclusion, please tell me how the German navy was supposed to sail up the Thames to whack London. Maybe a movement bonus for moving along a river, prior to the modern era.

There were river gunships, but like I said in my last post, there were many, many battles at the mouths of rivers, where the intent was to send an army up river to invade a city.

Bạch Đằng River (Vietnam & China)
Yalu River (Japan & China)
Río de la Plata (Britain)
Han River (China & Australia in Korea)

Rivers have also been used as a way to trap ships
 
Like I said a movement bonus would be an eceptable representation of this.
 
Like I said a movement bonus would be an eceptable representation of this.

I think it would be cool if you would have to station naval vessels at the mouths of rivers, to protect them -- and have to move transports up them, vulnerable to attack from land units -- and rely enough on rivers for trade that an enemy vessel could create a blockade.

The old civ game is getting a little boring and I see a lot of people arguing against things that would imo make it more fun.
 
You could have bonus in trade or production or even food for strategically located units: naval vessels at the mouths of rivers, archers on a hill overseeing a road, warriors blocking a pass, etc... Simple to implement and adds fun/tactical thinking.

As for the look of the rivers, yes they kinda look bad and static atm, but I'm sure they will greatly improve before the game is released. Same thing goes for the terrain in general: trees seem statics, cities look a little dull, troops seem to hover above terrain. I trust Firaxis that this is still work in progress.

I love how dynamic the terrain was in Civ4 : the trees moving, birds dashing off when troops entered a forest tile, different sounds playing depending wether you were hanging over mountain, forest, jungle or sea tiles, and above all the cities where you could catch a glimpse of each and every building you built. I hope that Civ5 will keep all of these features, they greatly improved immersion and were a good incentive to explore always more.
 
Keep in mind as well; a 2-lane road tunnel (like many of these tunnels; 1 lane each way) is not exactly going to allow the same amount of traffic as an 8 lane superhighway between cities - and isn't going to allow you to ship large armies through it easily.

Look at the real world; are there tunnels through the Himalayas? The Rockies? The Pyrennes? the Andes? No, going through mountain ranges is a PITA, there are narrow roads through passes, or you go around.

Other than a few through the alps, building transport tunnels through big mountain chains is not something we do, because it would be hideously cost ineffective.

Oh come on... Saying you can "simply go around" mountain ranges is silly. Where there is an actual NEED for a tunnel, there is probably one. All North-South european Highways go through some sort of Two lane road tunnel: Gotthard, Grand-St-Bernard, Fréjus, the Brenner Pass. And those are just the main ones: the road to actually get there is actually filled with tunnels. Have you ever taken or seen the highways in southern france? Or in southern Italy? Or in Spain? Or in Austria? Or even in Japan for that matter? Couple all that with railroad tunnels, which are pretty ubiquitous in Europe (and have been since 19th century, the Gotthard Tunnel opened in 1881): station, helicoidal tunnel go get up, viaduct, other tunnel, viaduct, tunnel, viaduct... you get the idea. And that's actually the most efficient way to go through any mountain range. If it was not, nobody would have build such systems, don't you think? ;)

p.s.: We Swiss might be an exception, but we sure know how to build through mountains.
 
I don't know how far back you got that quote, but yes Ahriman there actually are several tunnels that go through The Rocky Mountains. The most notable, the Eisenhower Tunnel was dug above 11,000ft above sea level and is nearly 1.7 miles long.

and that isn't a little 2 lane road. Try Interstate-70.
 
It would be possible to limit the very heaviest of units from river travel. Frigates of the US navy could make it to St Louis if there was an effort made to deepen the main channel.

The Suez and Panama Canals are two of the most important waterways in the world and have been for 100 years. In Civ IV we just make sure to place a city on that narrow tile to create an effective canal.

With that method you have effectively created the most advanced engineering works of the 20th century at 4000BC.
 
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