I (don't) Spy

[shaglio]

I really dislike the Espionage system in Civ 6. Lately, I've been toying with an idea I heard mentioned around these forums many moons ago, which is to increase the cost of Spies to some ridiculous number like 9999999. I hesitate to do so for three reasons:

1) Catherine's free Spy would give her an unfair advantage with no way to counter it.
2) Because of Catherine's Agenda, she'll wind up hating everyone for the entire game.
3) By making the Spy's production cost so enormous, the AI will stagnate as it sits there with impossible-to-finish Spies queued up for the rest of the game.

Has anyone here actually experimented with doing this, and if so, have you seen any of these above mentioned issues dramatically effect your game? Also, do I need to change the Gold cost to purchase Spies as well, or is it just a formula based on Production cost (i.e. Gold = 2 * Production)?

 

[FenrisWolf456]

I really dislike the Espionage system in Civ 6. Lately, I've been toying with an idea I heard mentioned around these forums many moons ago, which is to increase the cost of Spies to some ridiculous number like 9999999. I hesitate to do so for three reasons:

1) Catherine's free Spy would give her an unfair advantage with no way to counter it.
2) Because of Catherine's Agenda, she'll wind up hating everyone for the entire game.
3) By making the Spy's production cost so enormous, the AI will stagnate as it sits there with impossible-to-finish Spies queued up for the rest of the game.

Has anyone here actually experimented with doing this, and if so, have you seen any of these above mentioned issues dramatically effect your game? Also, do I need to change the Gold cost to purchase Spies as well, or is it just a formula based on Production cost (i.e. Gold = 2 * Production)?

Some other points to consider: The Intelligence Agency building for the Government Plaza gives a free spy as well, I believe. So raising the cost wouldn't rule out everyone having a spy or counterspy.

As well, it is possible for a spy to just fail even without counterspies against them. Going with this, Amani has a promotion to lower the effectiveness of enemy spies in a city.

 

[nrh]

You should consider instead looking into the coding logic used in the skill Machiavellianism, giving every leader that ability, and making it take a really long time for spies to take action. Then raise the cost of spies.
This way the AI doesn't waste time building them and Catherine won't abuse hers either.

anyway...

 

[Aristos]

Can I ask why? Espionage is almost a must for a high diff game that does not abuse conquest against the AI (as that is the cheapest, easiest victory of them all).

 

[Sagax]

1) Catherine's free Spy would give her an unfair advantage with no way to counter it.
2) Because of Catherine's Agenda, she'll wind up hating everyone for the entire game.
3) By making the Spy's production cost so enormous, the AI will stagnate as it sits there with impossible-to-finish Spies queued up for the rest of the game.

2) CdM’s agenda is about Diplomatic Vision, not usage of Spies. Send delegations and trade routes to increase visibility, and she’ll be fine with that. I haven’t had a single instance yet where CdM would dislike me because of non-compliance with her agenda.

Spies can feel like a drag to produce and quite an annoyance, but if they really become such a hindrance to your game - why not invest some resources into countering it with in-game resources? It seems like AI tends to target leading civs, so if you are in that position, then dealing with spies should be somewhat affordable.

 

[shaglio]

Can I ask why? Espionage is almost a must for a high diff game that does not abuse conquest against the AI (as that is the cheapest, easiest victory of them all).

To be honest, I've never cared for Espionage in any version of civ other than Civ 5. In previous Civs, there was always the option to turn off Espionage, but not in Civ 6, so I have to deal with it. It seems like such a tedious shell game to me.

As Sagax said, the AI seems to target the leading civ, so if you can produce X spies, the AI has the potential to send 7X spies (on a Standard size map) against you. Add to that the fact that you can't see enemy spies means you have to be paranoid about where they might strike. Sure a counterspy protects the District it's on as well as surrounding Districts, but when you have a dozen or more cities then you still have to produce a ton of spies to protect all the Districts in them. I always seem to have much more important things to spend my Hammers and Gold on. There is a Governor Promotion that allows a spy to protect all Districts in that city, but that's just for the one city. And I never even bother to build Neighborhoods anymore because that'll just add more targets to the list.

 

[Sagax]

To be honest, I've never cared for Espionage in any version of civ other than Civ 5. In previous Civs, there was always the option to turn off Espionage, but not in Civ 6, so I have to deal with it. It seems like such a tedious shell game to me.

As Sagax said, the AI seems to target the leading civ, so if you can produce X spies, the AI has the potential to send 7X spies (on a Standard size map) against you. Add to that the fact that you can't see enemy spies means you have to be paranoid about where they might strike. Sure a counterspy protects the District it's on as well as surrounding Districts, but when you have a dozen or more cities then you still have to produce a ton of spies to protect all the Districts in them. I always seem to have much more important things to spend my Hammers and Gold on. There is a Governor Promotion that allows a spy to protect all Districts in that city, but that's just for the one city. And I never even bother to build Neighborhoods anymore because that'll just add more targets to the list.

It’s not that extreme... Spies tend to flock to your largest cities - so it’s not that hard to predict where they will land. Also, if you get a notification about their mission once, they you can safely assume that they are going to stay in that same city, if not even the same district. I actually find counter-espionage more efficient: one spy in the identified target city, and you will catch them fairly easily - And AI will keep spamming spies there without realizing how futile it is. Oh, and slot in that policy card that reduces spy level.

 

[Aristos]

To be honest, I've never cared for Espionage in any version of civ other than Civ 5. In previous Civs, there was always the option to turn off Espionage, but not in Civ 6, so I have to deal with it. It seems like such a tedious shell game to me.

As Sagax said, the AI seems to target the leading civ, so if you can produce X spies, the AI has the potential to send 7X spies (on a Standard size map) against you. Add to that the fact that you can't see enemy spies means you have to be paranoid about where they might strike. Sure a counterspy protects the District it's on as well as surrounding Districts, but when you have a dozen or more cities then you still have to produce a ton of spies to protect all the Districts in them. I always seem to have much more important things to spend my Hammers and Gold on. There is a Governor Promotion that allows a spy to protect all Districts in that city, but that's just for the one city. And I never even bother to build Neighborhoods anymore because that'll just add more targets to the list.

You don't need to protect ALL your cities nor districts (and you can't anyways). You only need one SP centrally located, hopefully with as much production coming from several in-range IZs, and managed by a 3-tier promoted Magnus. SP has to be right beside the CC, and hopefully the IZ also, so that one correctly promoted spy can protect all of them at once. The rest of your spies is destroying other SPs and IZs a piacere.

Also, "coming in from behind" works marvels with this strategy, because the other AIs are busy destroying each other's infrastructure, because they think other AIs are the menace (this is obviously IMM/DEI).

 

[Troy Bruckner]

After the game killed my first 4 attempts of using spies offensively with zero return I switched to defensive spies exclusively. I wish there was an option to turn spying off like barbarians.

 

[Aristos]

After the game killed my first 4 attempts of using spies offensively with zero return I switched to defensive spies exclusively. I wish there was an option to turn spying off like barbarians.

Oh man, you are missing so much offensively... try again. Be careful with your spies, promote them before tackling harder missions... I usually finance myself a little while leveling up my spies, as Siphon funds is the most likely to succeed mission for a newbie 007. From there on, as you level up, you can try more demanding missions, but I usually stay stealing gold until tier 3, unless something urgent is up (SPs building space missions, etc).

Try again, with care. You will never neglect spies again after succeeding with them. And it's fun!

 

[Sagax]

Gain Sources -> Siphon Funds -> Promote -> Siphon Funds -> Promote -> Mission 3 -> Laugh in CIA

Or get that Quartermaster promotion earlier, send that Spy back home to counterspy, and laugh in KGB.

 

[Aristos]

Gain Sources -> Siphon Funds -> Promote -> Siphon Funds -> Promote -> Mission 3 -> Laugh in CIA

Or get that Quartermaster promotion earlier, send that Spy back home to counterspy, and laugh in KGB.

Indeed. All coupled with the right Policy cards, and your spies are almost unstoppable. I only remember two off spies killed on me since vanilla release. A few more captured (more likely), but you pay what you have to pay for such an asset to be back home, even if not promoted yet.

 

[Draco84]

I would actually go another route if I wanted to kill espionage.

Set the cost to 1 hammer for spies, then set the time to complete each mission to something silly like 999 turns.

The AI will build spies but it is doesn't waste their hammers, they will place them but nothing will come of it.

 

[Disgustipated]

I actually played around with espionage more this game than any other game.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Or you could go the easy route and just disable anything that grants Spy slots.

 

[Socrates99]

Now that defensive spies have the renew mission option you could just slot them in your biggest cities. IZs and neighborhoods seem to be the AIs favorite targets. Then just renew and ignore the rest of the game. If you want building them to have less impact just mod their cost to 1 cog.

At least that's what I'd do if I didn't like spies. Personally I find them to be invaluable. Like others mentioned gather resources then siphon funds is the safe way to level them up. Often times you can jump straight to tech stealing if you get the technologist or Ace Driver promo. Always try to get one with quartermaster. Its totally worth it.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I do not enjoy the spy game.

 

[Aristos]

I do not enjoy the spy game.

My wild guess is that you play in lower diffs. When you are always the lead (lower diffs), then I can see espionage becoming an annoyance for some, as you would always be on the defensive. If you play on higher diffs, you will LOVE them.

With the SP-wide strategy of the AI (which should have been removed in GS as it is not necessary nor efficient anymore), either spies or total war are the only options to stop them from launching at IMM/DEI. Or, sometimes, steal their abundant works of art to decelerate their CV.

 

[shaglio]

My wild guess is that you play in lower diffs. When you are always the lead (lower diffs), then I can see espionage becoming an annoyance for some, as you would always be on the defensive. If you play on higher diffs, you will LOVE them.

With the SP-wide strategy of the AI (which should have been removed in GS as it is not necessary nor efficient anymore), either spies or total war are the only options to stop them from launching at IMM/DEI. Or, sometimes, steal their abundant works of art to decelerate their CV.

This could very well be my problem as I typically play on Prince. But I'll take into account the advice I've been given here before attempting to disable Espionage altogether. I DO appreciate the new Renew option for counter-spying.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

My wild guess is that you play in lower diffs. When you are always the lead (lower diffs), then I can see espionage becoming an annoyance for some, as you would always be on the defensive. If you play on higher diffs, you will LOVE them.

With the SP-wide strategy of the AI (which should have been removed in GS as it is not necessary nor efficient anymore), either spies or total war are the only options to stop them from launching at IMM/DEI. Or, sometimes, steal their abundant works of art to decelerate their CV.

I usually play on 6-7 (though I've played a few king games since expansion to get used to it). More to your point is that I often start new games before ending. I do see how they could be necessary/helpful, though even so I think they're a distraction from what I really want to do ingame. I think it has improved in the xp a bit with the auto-renew, etc.