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I hope map terrain evolution becomes a feature in Civ 7

karakzorn

Chieftain
Joined
Mar 22, 2024
Messages
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I might have already posted something like this before. But I simply love the way a map transforms because of player actions, or because of an event.

For example, during a crisis event like:
-huge plague
-an alien invasion
-a world war is ongoing
-the ice age returning
-the world submerging (due to global warming at a waterworld level)
-a robot rebellion going on
where the map gradually turns to night until the crisis is over. Simply to push home that an apocalypse is developing.

I got the idea from an anime that features such a concept:


I also hope using nukes in civ7 causes the map to turn into a wasteland, so with each nuke fired, nuclear winter sets in and the map turns to ash and food per tile is reduced.

I simply love apocalypse simulators.
 
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Because after all, don't we play games to explore to test our skill and to explore what the world could otherwise be like?

We already know what the real world is, we play games to explore a world that is unlike ours.

 
It would make less sense as the ages progress and each turn represents less and less time. But self contained it would be a neat idea in the early game, early civilizations had trouble with climate change, notably the Indus Valley civilization seems to have collapsed partially due to less and less rainfall in the region.

I could even see "alien invasion" as a fun scenario dlc. Plague has already been discussed elsewhere and it seems like it's hard to make totally clear and fun though.
 
While I am less of a fan of apocalypse games as you are (*), we have a precedent in the franchise. Civ2 allowed players to do some pretty substantial terraforming in the latter "industrial" portion of the game. Mountains were not impassable and could be turned into hills. Deserts could be made into plains. I was disappointed when those abilities were left out of Civ3 and more disappointed when mountains became impassable in Civ4. Bring back terraforming! Sure, it can be costly. Sure, it can have side effects. But let us affect the land!

(*) I would support an apocaplypse mode, where aliens could invade or robots rebel or glaciers begin to impinge on cities close to the poles. I am too much of a builder at heart. I find it UNfun when an empire I spent hours constructing begins to unravel due to game mechanics that I cannot control / plan for / mitigate. In Civ6, I can choose to build flood barriers (or not) to address rising sea levels. The bad random events in Civ4 were bad enough that I usually left them disabled.
 
While I am less of a fan of apocalypse games as you are (*), we have a precedent in the franchise. Civ2 allowed players to do some pretty substantial terraforming in the latter "industrial" portion of the game. Mountains were not impassable and could be turned into hills. Deserts could be made into plains. I was disappointed when those abilities were left out of Civ3 and more disappointed when mountains became impassable in Civ4. Bring back terraforming! Sure, it can be costly. Sure, it can have side effects. But let us affect the land!

(*) I would support an apocaplypse mode, where aliens could invade or robots rebel or glaciers begin to impinge on cities close to the poles. I am too much of a builder at heart. I find it UNfun when an empire I spent hours constructing begins to unravel due to game mechanics that I cannot control / plan for / mitigate. In Civ6, I can choose to build flood barriers (or not) to address rising sea levels. The bad random events in Civ4 were bad enough that I usually left them disabled.

The problem is these are fun until they hurt you. There's a reason why the civ 6 "disasters" mostly are limited to annoyances, and often in the end reward you (how many of us have cheered when a forest fire happened in our empire?) Sure, some people would like the challenge, but if I settled a nice fertile river valley, and then got a note that "for the next 50 turns, this valley will flood every 5 turns and destroy everything on there" I'm pretty sure that's a "okay, let's try a new game".

In civ 6, the "good" map changing is stuff like sea levels rising - I mean it's not really a balanced mechanism, but in terms of gameplay, it's at least a "the actions taken in the game have an impact, and you have some time to prepare to handle it". If there were more sort of setups like that - ie. the more that you over-exploit a land, the more barren it becomes for later. Maybe every turn you work a mine, you run into a possibility of a mine collapse that would turn the tile into something un-workable to mine anymore. Or when you finish quarrying all the marble from a deposit, you have to leave it idle for a time before you can convert it to a forest or a lake or a farm or whatever else.

I loved in Alpha Centauri completely transforming the landscape, but for a game like civ, I think that can get overboard. Even the ability to completely clearcut the amazon in civ has always felt a little weird.
 
We are in an era, whether some people acknowledge it or not, or Apocalyptic climactic change, so this sort of topic will come up time and again.

But regardless of 'reality' apocalyptic disasters for which the gamer has no answer are simply Bad Game Design. As posted, most gamers will simply turn them off and if that option is not allowed, turn the game off.

On the other hand, human transformation of the landscape and adaptation to changes is as old as human settlements. Almost as soon as people started planting crops, they also started digging channels to funnel water to those crops - primitive irrigation, followed by dams to cache water for irrigation, followed by lifting mechanisms and diversion mechanisms to put the water just where they needed it and nowhere else. This, in places, had the ultimate result of allowing so much salt and other minerals to precipitate out of the irrigation water that they poisoned their own fields for several years, in some places long enough to abandon primitive settlements and cities.

Which brings up a point of what I would consider Good Game Design - everything should have a price. You can cut down an entire forest (much of the Amazon today is, in fact, trees that were planted by humans for their usefullness - the distribution of plants in many parts of the area is NOT natural!) - but it will cost you: the Cucuteni cities, some of the largest Neolithic settlements anywhere, eventually had to move off the steppes of (modern) western Ukraine because every tree within walking distance of the cities had been cut down (probably for firewood) and with no wheels it was impossible to supply the cities with more of that necessity. Medieval Europe managed their forests much better, with coppicing among other techniques, but even they started running out of Old Growth big timbers for ship construction in England - managing forests for their products could, in fact, be its own 'mini-game' if the designers wanted to go into that much detail.

Among the People Modifications/Adaptations within in Civ timescale:
Numerous seaports went unuseable because of shifts in sealevels or the silting up of river deltas where they were located: the ancient port of Alexandria in Egypt, for instance, is now 15 - 20 feet below the water lebel because of sea level rise over 2000 years. Scarborough (of "Scarborough Fair") in England is one of several seaports that didn't survive into the Renaissance both because ships got too big for =the port or the port silted up and became unuseable by anything floating.

Rivers, most notoriously in China but also the Mississippi in America, can change their course completely as a result of seasonal flooding. That is not only an immediate disaster to everyone living anywhere near the river, but also a longer-term disaster as river trade routes also have to be re-routed or abandoned. China's Great Canal project, which eventually covered some 1600 kilometers, was both to extend river trade routes and also to try to 'fix' the rivers in their courses, and immense efforts were expended all over western Europe to 'canalize' and fix the courses of major rivers like the Danube and the Rhine to avoid seasonal disasters - and some of that effort is now breaking down as a result of extremes in the flow of those rivers.

People have not only chopped down large amounts of forest, they have changed the landscape in other ways: aside from re-arranging rivers, canals result in effectively new rivers, in China, Europe, and parts of the USA (The Erie Canal effectively provided a 'sea route' from New York City to the Great Lakes and all the way to Detroit and Chicago before the railroads and was a major reason why New York City far outstripped Philadelphia or Boston in growth in the early nineteenth century).

And finally, and to my mind the worst lacunae in Civ: People have re-arranged the landscape profoundly in the last 100 or so years by strip mining entire mountains, tunneling through mountains or under the sea, bridging major waterways and coastal inlets, irrigating vast stretches of deserts to provide almost entirely new agricultural regions (Central Valley in California for one example). There should be much more extensive 'terraforming' available to the gamer in the late game besides just building some Sea Walls here and there and the occasional tunnel. As far back as the 17th century the Netherlands 'built' three new Provinces by damming up and draining parts of their coast and a large part of Tokyo Bay in Japan is now Land rather than Water as a result of human actions: we should be able to Build Land as well as Excavate in on a multi-tile basis!
 
I know in Civ 3 that tiles could change because of climate change -- is that a factor in the later games? (I...have yet to finish a game of Civ 5 or Civ 6. I've started so many but then I get distracted. It's like my attempts to read The Shahnameh...)
 
I know in Civ 3 that tiles could change because of climate change -- is that a factor in the later games? (I...have yet to finish a game of Civ 5 or Civ 6. I've started so many but then I get distracted. It's like my attempts to read The Shahnameh...)
In Civ6, climate change results in sea level rising in the later ages. Any improvments that you have built on the "low coast" will be flooded and ruined. It's possible to build a city improvement to protect the lowlands, but the flood barriers need to be finished before the sea levels rise. It's been too long since I played Civ5 to remember how/if they handled it.
 
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