I just can`t seem to follow strategies. Help!

Avatarz

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
21
Location
Latvia (N-Europe)
Whenever I access certain strategy articles or tips here on this forum, I almost always get confused. Not that I wouldn`t understand what all those tips and definitions are about, but I simply can`t apply any of that help for my own matches. There are simply too many factors to be taken into account. For instance - I`ve already read a couple of articles about city specialization, but I have never ever made any of my cities, for instance, a pure science or production city. I almost always duplicate buildings, and reaching the pop. cap. takes ages for me, not even mentioning all the other techs and buildings that I theoretically need. Also, I just can`t hire any specialists without sacrificing something more valuable, eg. city growth or valuable hammers. My research does not ivnolve any particular strategy either, I just mix it up to gain the most out of my tiles or cities. Ok, I understand this might seem a bit too general, but it`s a problem nonetheless. It just seems that this game, at least for now, is way too confusing for me. I almost always restart my matches shortly before the medieval era not because I`m loosing, but because I`m not satisfied with my own results. Am I the only one facing the same things?
 
Am I the only one facing the same things?

No, not in the least. Veterans and beginners alike often have similar problems with their games. What might find helpful is to simply experiment; read the strategies if you like, but instead of worrying about applying them effectively, just apply them in a fashion that makes sense to you. Try out different tactics, and learn from your successes and mistakes equally. You won't learn how to master Civ4 after just one game, and that's okay.

And if you'd like post your savegames here on the forums if you ever run into trouble, a lot of people are ready to help out. :)
 
One good way of trying to understand all the little "if" that most of the guides don't tell ( just for sake of brevity ) is to pick a game form one of the countless games that you can find here ( all of the sucession games , or the excelent ALC series in the strategy forum ) and play it.... then you have a comparison point. you can drive a diferent strategy, place cities in other spots, try all the kind of diferent things and see how it affects the game in comparison with the already posted game. IMHO this is a really good way of learning all the small optimization steps that make all the diference
 
As you've realized, the problem is that there is SO much in this game that understanding it all will take some time & practice.

Here's my suggestion. Read a bit (not a LOT). Find something that makes sense to you & try and implement it. See how that change affects your game...

For example, one thing that helped me is Slavery. This is reached thru Bronze Working - which has a major benefit of being able to build axemen.

Pick a civilization that starts with agriculture. That helps in the beginning. Research mining (unless you start with it). Then research Bronze Working. When that is complete, switch your civic to "Slavery".

Look for the copper - hopefully it will be near. If it is in your fat cross, use a worker & build a road to it and build a mine. Once done, you can build axemen - a vastly supperior unit (to warriors) and a good match for archers. Axemen can take out a city - barbarian or AI. You need about 2x the number of defenders to make sure.

If it's outside your fat cross, you will probably have to build a city next to it - NEVER ON IT. Then build a road to connect your city to your new city. Then build the mine a road to it and you'll have two cities to build axemen.

Here's what slavery does... You can sacrifice population to build units. In the city view (double clickj on the city)... at the bottom - toward the right, you will see an up arrow. Hover over it and it will tell you the cost. Maybe 1 population + unhapiness for 10 turns. Your city WILL recover the lost population fairly quickly. This is VERY useful, when you are about to be attacked by a barb unit - when you are not well protected.

This is referred to in the forums as "whipping". You can also use it to build an army of axemen quickly and go on an early attack.

Anyway, this sounds like a lot, but it is fairly easy to learn - and will take a while to really master. But once you can do it without thinking too much, add something else. Learn that, andd something else. Repeat. Repeat..

Good luck!
 
Whenever I access certain strategy articles or tips here on this forum, I almost always get confused. Not that I wouldn`t understand what all those tips and definitions are about, but I simply can`t apply any of that help for my own matches. There are simply too many factors to be taken into account. For instance - I`ve already read a couple of articles about city specialization, but I have never ever made any of my cities, for instance, a pure science or production city. I almost always duplicate buildings, and reaching the pop. cap. takes ages for me, not even mentioning all the other techs and buildings that I theoretically need. Also, I just can`t hire any specialists without sacrificing something more valuable, eg. city growth or valuable hammers. My research does not ivnolve any particular strategy either, I just mix it up to gain the most out of my tiles or cities. Ok, I understand this might seem a bit too general, but it`s a problem nonetheless. It just seems that this game, at least for now, is way too confusing for me. I almost always restart my matches shortly before the medieval era not because I`m loosing, but because I`m not satisfied with my own results. Am I the only one facing the same things?

You gotta take those guides with a grain of salt. They're helpful but don't follow them word by word. I think it's good to read some and try to apply to your game but you realize yourself, every game is different. Just try to find something that works for YOU rather then for other people. And focus on making your own playstyle better.

Which brings me to this point -> Work on understanding good diplomacy and tech trading. Because that is something that is somewhat less variable and should improve all of your games. Watch closely what tech tree they're on and how their relationships are with each other. After a few games you'll see they usually go for the same stuff and you can adapt to that.
Yesterday I finished a game under 2h (normal spd) of playing. I hardly micro managed or specialized anything except my capital, I didn't even have a gp farm. Mind you I had really horsehockey land.
The point being I had like no gpp/wonders/food/hammers/military and my commerce was below average. Yet I had all the AI's in my pocket, So I could afford having no military, could just tech trade to keep up and eventually bribed everyone into a massive war so I could run away with a space victory.
Good diplomacy is 75% of your win already.

ps: It's not bad to resign, it speeds up the process of finding your own playstyle. However take your time playing and think about what you're actually trying to achieve. when I was moving up from warlord->noble->prince->etc .. I spend a lot of time on a game (at normal speed 10-15h), checking techs/cities/diplo every few turns. But it improved my gameplay rapidly imho.
Though note that being behind in score or some techs, doesn't mean you're going to lose.
 
My guess would be that you are weak on planning. These strategic ideas don't bring victory on their own, but must be leveraged to obtain satisfactory results.

Floundering more effectively is still floundering.

Also, I just can`t hire any specialists without sacrificing something more valuable, eg. city growth or valuable hammers.

This sounds to me as though you are over valuing city improvements, and in particular you are rushing to construct them, when instead you could take your time and invest your citizens more effectively.
 
Sounds good. Basically, it's like saying, factor X Y and Z are good, but they compete with each other, so what do I do? Having to restart means you're gaining cause and effect intuition, and that's not something that you'll learn explicitly.
 
I`ve already read a couple of articles about city specialization, but I have never ever made any of my cities, for instance, a pure science or production city. I almost always duplicate buildings,


You have to stop constructing every building in every city. This is a very common problem that players have great difficulty overcoming. You have to pay attention to city's output (upper left in city screen) and make decisions about which buildings are really going to help. Don't waste hammers building a university when its only producing 3 science to begin with.


reaching the pop. cap. takes ages for me, not even mentioning all the other techs and buildings that I theoretically need. Also, I just can`t hire any specialists without sacrificing something more valuable

It sounds like you are not prioritizing food and granaries. Perhaps your city locations could be rethought to include more food or simply build more farms. Make sure you are hoking up irrigation once you get civil service. Also, read Orion's Home School and you will realize how crucial granaries are, especially if you are whipping a lot. You might consider focusing more on cottages than specialists for now, except for one GP farm.
 
Thanks everyone. I`ll ty to remember all these things. However, I still don`t have a picture how to plan things and actually improve at the game. Restarting after each classical era becomes more and more boring with each time. How did you start to plan everything? I mean, everyone has to start somewhere, right? Is this kind of practice I`m experiencing really the only available option for me?
 
Thanks everyone. I`ll ty to remember all these things. However, I still don`t have a picture how to plan things and actually improve at the game. Restarting after each classical era becomes more and more boring with each time. How did you start to plan everything? I mean, everyone has to start somewhere, right? Is this kind of practice I`m experiencing really the only available option for me?

You don't need to plan everything... Some people on this forum plan entirely too much, just play and experiment works just as well.(at least it does for me ;)) You just need to play lots of games and try to follow some key tips you get. (like the worker thing, you always need more workers ;))
 
Some advice from me?

I played Civ3, beat it and quit after I figured it out. I felt it was too easy to follow along your course of action and it would always get your results ALWAYS.

I got Civ4, this time I wanted to make it more difficult so I started off as Prince, my first 10 games was me trying to run my Civ3 empire in Civ4. That didn't work at all.

Then I browsed these forums and found some strategies that people were playing higher difficulty than prince, so I figured I could manage.

I lost another 10 games.

Then I read about Specialist, Economy, Hybrid Economy.

I lost another 10 games.

At that point I figured I was just missing something about how this flows together.

I noticed I had some problems, I wanted to play lazy style and that wasnt going to work. I needed to manually control my workers for most of the infrastructure phase of the game.
I needed to understand why you put a farm here, and why you put a cottage there, so I did. There are articles on those in the War Academy.
I needed to stop building every damn building when they werent needed, now instead of just randomly accepting "sids recommendation" I dont build an stable if I dont have freakin horse resource or plan on getting it, I don't need an aquaduct when my healthiness is 5 above my happy cap.
Take advantage of whipping early when you get it, use whipping and chopping in your new cities to get them up fast.
Dont worry about your 30% research slider at this point, it will get better.

I won my first game of Civ4 yesterday by space race with Zulu, and won again today with Capuac by UN vote, I am quitting a game using Mongols because I wasnt happy with my lack of care to cover up all the spots where the AI could move on your continent. (I play standard, prince, continents, normal speed).

Read about Cottage Economies, Specialist Economies, and Hybrid Economies. They are very useful to know about because you should be able to understand these if you understand the game mechanics. Once you understand why just using specialists and no cottages works, you can then develop your own style man. Maybe you will come up with something like the quecha economy and we will all be going wow, how the hell does that work!


So all in all I have lost about 30 games before I got. I can now compete in any game at this level and it is actually fun.
 
Welcome to the forum, Avatarz

The FIRST thing to remember is why we play the game: to have FUN! Don't worry so much about winning, or doing everything right, just enjoy playing. I am in the middle of a game where I put my military academy in a lousy place, but hey, I am living with it. Lesson learned, look ahead next time, but meanwhile I'm just carrying on and having fun.

Some people like to micromanage, some like to warmonger, some just like to do what "feels" best at the moment; all these styles are good, if you are having FUN!

And if the game is making you mad, turn down the difficulty level. That's what it's for.

But by all means keep readnig the forum. We need more Latvian input around here. :goodjob:
 
welcome Avatarz,
I've only been on the forum for about a month, but was reading it for about a year prior to deciding to start posting. I have been playing CIV since it came out. Here's what I've gotten out of the forum so far:
1. the forum and information contained here in can help you improve your game as far as you want it to. I don't have a goal in my game play like being able to win at Diety or being able to achieve a conquest victory on a certain type of map or scenario. I want to be able to play a challenging game, and have it still be fun. I have tried a few games on Prince now, and am not having as much fun. I'm goin to keep trying, but I might move it back to Noble to keep playing in a scenario where I have fun. To that end I have also learned:
2. Wining at difficulties above Noble requires more micro management than I enjoy puting in. I have learned to develop specialized economies and have finally learned how to win a conquest victory. Up until a couple of months ago, it was not able to win by killing all my oponents. I read a walk through by Orion071 on completing a conquest victory, and that taught me a LOT about how to attack, when, and how to maximize your production. There is also a downloadable PDF guide for beginners that I found very useful.
3. You do need to figure out what kind of victory you intend to pursue before you get very far. I don't enjoy the warfare aspect of the game as much as the rest of it, and unfortunately, the score system seems to favor conquest over all other types of victory, from what I can tell. I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong. The highest score I've gotten though was from defeating all the other Civs.
4. I can't remember stragegies either. I've read and read and read these forum articles and aside from learning how to construct a good miliary group "stack of doom", not to build every building, and how to find the best place to plot a city, I couldn't tell you the "best" way to do anything. I don't understand the math behind combat enough to be able to tell you the odds of any fight, like some here can. I don't know the best tech path to wage and win a mid-evil war, like some others here can. I know there are a lot of players who in a multi-player game with me, would destroy me.
5. But I don't play with other players. I play against the AI only, and I like it. I have fun, I've gotten better thanks to this forum, and I appreciate the way that other people play and that they enjoy things about the game that I don't, and that I enjoy things about the game that other people don't. You can get pretty much whatever you want out of this forum. If you're not sure where to look use the search function. Not sure after that, just start a thread and if your question was already asked, someone will kindly point you to a discussion about your topic.

Good luck and I hope you continue to enjoy CIV.
 
Thanks everyone. I`ll ty to remember all these things. However, I still don`t have a picture how to plan things and actually improve at the game. Restarting after each classical era becomes more and more boring with each time. How did you start to plan everything?

I've had a reasonable amount of success with two approaches.

One is to itemize the problems that you always face in the opening (defense, happiness, research, culture pops, blah blah blah), and work out - for the circumstances of your current game - how you are going to address each.


The other, which I find superior, begins with an examination of the tech tree, and finding which techs have extra meaning for my current leader (because of traits, unique unit, unique building). Having identified techs I'm particularly interested in, I can start looking at research paths, and discovering which game elements are "on the way", and choosing how I want to make them fit.
Check the map, and look at the immediately visible resources, and determine if they fit with the current plan, or if revisions need to be made.

With that done, I then double check against the earlier questions to make sure that I've got everything covered.

Once the plan is in place, everything is fairly straight forward: when faced with a change in circumstance (oh, THAT neighbor), you check to see whether the plan needs to be revised. When faced with a choice, you test that choice against the plan.
 
Avatarz,

You said you are restarting after the ancient era apparently because you aren't satisfied, even though you aren't necessarily losing. What level are you playing at, and what goal are you trying to set? Below, I'm assuming you are a beginner and lookign for specific direction, otherwise you will probably find this insulting, so I apologize for this.


Don't necessarily try to get the results of the best players, you should probably be satisfied if you are in the middle of the pack in score at that time. Maybe you are better than you think? I am on a chess website which has masters an international masters. I've given up trying to match them, I can't. I can enjoy chess and I'm pretty sure you can enjoy Civ IV.


There is no question that the choices in the game are substantial, which is why so many of us enjoy it so much.


I thought Voice of Unreason's last post was very good.

What do we need to do in the early game? We have three main tasks -- defense, city building, and expansion.

Defense and expansion require some knowledge of the area around us. So we need to scout for both of them. Scouting can also get goody huts.

We need to scout for expansion because you do want to build cities on the best possible spots. If you click on a settler, the computer will 'recommend' a spot. Strong players pick spots better than the computer can, but for now, if city placement isn't your best thing, just take the computer recommendation, it will be one less thing to worry about. The computer recommendation is often based on key resources, which is important.

The resources around you are very important for expansion. Resources need specific technologies to use them. So, as Voice said, we can start on the technology question by tying them to the resources available. So, say your initial city has a wheat and a cow; you may want to prioritize agriculture and animal husbandry.

Defense is also important. Without strategic resources, you can build only warriors. This will be fine for a short period of time, but soon the other AI's and even the barbarians will get the upper hand. So, you usually want to get at least one of the better fighters.

Horses allow chariots and even horsemen later; copper and bronze working allow axemen. I usually research the techs to unlock these strategic materials very early. If you get neither (copper nor horse), you better get archery fast or even try to get iron working and hope you get iron. Or, if you just want to defend early, get archery quickly.

Techwise, see the priorities. Hunting often can be skipped toward later. Scouts are good, but you can press warriors as scouts if necessary. However, if you have pigs in your city, which need a camp, its a high priority. You will want mysticism if you don't found a religion and aren't creative, since you will need monuments for culture.

The techs that help growth are agriculture, pottery, hunting if you need camps, and mining. If there are cows, add animal husbandry. If there is a lot of sea, then add fishing and sailing. Bronze working is very beneficial if you have a lot of forests, it lets you cut them down which helps expansion greatly and allows farms, mines, and cottages. For defence, its copper bronze working and animal husbandry, especially bronze working. Since Bronze working helps for economic expansion, defense, and gives the useful slavery civic, it is usually high priority build. It is pretty rare that I will research 3 other techs before mining and bronze-working, indeed rarely more than 2. So a reasonable early research path is 2 techs or so to get the city improved economically, based on available and strategic resources, and then mining and bronze-wroking. If you don't find copper, then its a decision to go for animal husbandry, iron working, or archery.

Your second city will often be placed to use one of these military resources.

Unless you play at a very high level, you should have a little time to build your first city up a bit.

On a normal map, there are usually 4-5 cities that are your core. This is a good total on a noble-prince-monarch type level for the early game. These should be located based on strategic resources and terrain. Unfortunately, this is where you have to use some judgement -- if you have poor terrain around, building fewer cities quicker makes sense.

The game can essentially tell you if you have enough military units. Check out the screent aht shows your place realtive to other civs. There is a field for soldiers. Try to stay in the top half, its a good rule of thumb. As Dave McW said, try to build about 1.5 workers/city as a general rule.

Once you have your core cities, you should now be doing the dreaded specialization! You probably want about 2 production centers. Figure out which city can have the most production (look for grasslands and hills). Farm ALL of the grasslands, and build mines on the hills. It is best if this is the city with copper or iron. Now, it this city, ONLY build a monument if you need culture, granary (maybe), a barracks, a forge, and later a courthouse. From then on and in-between, build only military units, workers and settlers (and maybe wonders). Later, its ok to build a building (like a temple) for happiness to keep production up, but don't build things like monastaries, libraries, and later grocers, etc.

If you have gems, gold, or even silver, these should often go wtih commerce cities. Commerce cities should build as many cottages as possible; cut down trees if you need to. Since production is likely low, chopping the trees will help with early buildings. Here, you prioitze buildings like granaries (maybe), libraries, monastaries, etc, most of the building that the production center doesn't build (although you still likely will want a courthosue). With a capital and say 5 other cities, you probably want 2 production centers, 3 commerce cities, and the captial. Of course, its hard to be this pure, and there will be some redundency, but this kind of set-up can work.

Wehn you get to trying a specialist economy (which I still have trouble with) the commerce city builds farms and uses excess food for specialists. Strong players often build one city like this even with a cottage based economy.

So, we have a basic roadmap -- 1 to 1.5 workers/city, enough military to stay on the middle to top of the chart, and 4 or so other cities is a reasonable goal for expansion.

Then comes the really hard part, where to go next. But that's a different issue!


Above, I assumed you were expanding throug settler creation. Of course, the alternative to to conquer. If you start with an aggressive leader, it often makes sense to conquer. This often isn't easy, but if you do try to conquer, really devote your civ to it. Slave build, and get troops out. Don't build too many settlers, just conquer. Conquest should be examined in a general sense if:

You are aggressive
You have strategic materials (especially metals) and your opponent doesn't
You are hemmed in by rapid expansion by the AI

As Voice of Unreason said, once the beginning is done, you can see around you and adjust. Is Shaka your next door neighbor? Change the move order and get the military build PRONTO!

Once the end of the early period is reached (and good paleyrs do this immediately), its time to look for the future. You ave to decide how you will win. Conquest? What is the best time to start? You may want to go for religions, wonders, or techs, but they must be in line with your overall strategy.

Anyway, try Breunor's start and see if it helps. Remember, I concentrated on defense, expansion, and city building. Once these are routine, you quickly want to add wonder building and religions to the list of considerations.


Best wishes,

Breunor
 
A very nice overview of the concerns facing a player at the start of the game, Breunor. One minor mistake, though:

if you have pigs in your city, which need a camp, its a high priority

I think you mean deer (though elephants and furs also need camps) - pigs need a pasture (because they're farmed, not hunted).
 
A very nice overview of the concerns facing a player at the start of the game, Breunor. One minor mistake, though:



I think you mean deer (though elephants and furs also need camps) - pigs need a pasture (because they're farmed, not hunted).

Oh, thanks for the correction!

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
Early game, think about getting a second settler fast and getting 1-2 worker techs to speed things up.

When you expand, think about grabbing copper/horses and rushing, REXing (something like worker-worker-settler bronze working works nicely), or blocking off the enemy (hint, you need monuments). Oh yeah, if you REX, no barracks or even granaries early, just workers, settlers, and warriors (and warriors are important!). And don't get killed by barbarians.

See if you can get a size 10-15 cottaged capital early on, this means hereditary rule and pre-AD, if not sooner.

Mid game, pay attention to diplomacy and monitor techs. Don't go for techs outside of your beeline unless you have a good reason. Make sure that you trade techs to as many people as possible for the most benefit, and to deny trades to other civs. And if you can, don't trade too early.
 
Try not to think too much about specialization early on. You know that you want to specialize later on though, so do a little planning. You mainly want to expand and build up a sizeable force. After you have a good infrastructure going, and a decent sized army, then you can start listening to some of the guides. Don't follow them line for line though, but apply them to your situation. Experiment around.
 
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