I want to help this mod

[Faustmouse]

There already is a spreadsheet somewhere and buildings are planned to be rebalanced in the next year.

I agree that some buildings (or many) have a bad ROI, but IMO 100 turns is quite ok and should be the standard. 100 turns is like 20-30 techs, which isn't even an era. Most buildings should be around for 2 eras, so even 200 turns would be acceptable for me.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There are many buildings whose ROI (return on investment) is terrible. As in, it would take over 50 turns for the building to stop repaying for itself and to start generating value.
For example, let's look at 'Wig Shop'. It costs 235 production to build and yields a single gold per turn. Even with a conversion rate for production to gold of 2 to 1, the ROI of the building is ~115 turns. The further you go in the tech tree the terrible buildings become more common, and their ROI drops.
Buildings such as these take up space in the UI, until their cost becomes negligible and I build them just to reduce clatter.
I'm more than willing to take it upon myself to go over the building list and suggest rebalances to the more egregious offenders. To do that, all I need is the building data in a workable form (excel or even CSV). I can probably generate such a table from the XML, but I decided it would be faster to just ask here and hope someone has it on hand.

tl;dr: Can someone please send me a spreadsheet with the building data?

I have some tags to put in place in early v39's design cycle that will enable us to have a building be defined in a way that in undergoes natural upgrading, all defined on the one building. Thus, a Wig Shop would take steps up through advancing ages. There's a lot of new theory I want to apply to this and a very large scale concept on how to best address what you're pointing at that goes much deeper than such spot improvements. Sometime soon I'll start a thread on the subject and if you want to be a part of helping to implement it, I'd love to have some assistance because the xml and design side of it will be pretty intense. But I've gotta get us all on board with the theories I have in mind first. I've floated a little of it already in the forums and it seems to have some good potential response so far.

 

[raxo2222]

I have some tags to put in place in early v39's design cycle that will enable us to have a building be defined in a way that in undergoes natural upgrading, all defined on the one building. Thus, a Wig Shop would take steps up through advancing ages. There's a lot of new theory I want to apply to this and a very large scale concept on how to best address what you're pointing at that goes much deeper than such spot improvements. Sometime soon I'll start a thread on the subject and if you want to be a part of helping to implement it, I'd love to have some assistance because the xml and design side of it will be pretty intense. But I've gotta get us all on board with the theories I have in mind first. I've floated a little of it already in the forums and it seems to have some good potential response so far.

Hmm it would be nice if my prehistoric crafter upgraded to medieval workshop then upgraded to industrial factory and then merged into information megacomplex with other factories.

 

[Gazing Rabbit]

I have some tags to put in place in early v39's design cycle that will enable us to have a building be defined in a way that in undergoes natural upgrading, all defined on the one building. Thus, a Wig Shop would take steps up through advancing ages. There's a lot of new theory I want to apply to this and a very large scale concept on how to best address what you're pointing at that goes much deeper than such spot improvements. Sometime soon I'll start a thread on the subject and if you want to be a part of helping to implement it, I'd love to have some assistance because the xml and design side of it will be pretty intense. But I've gotta get us all on board with the theories I have in mind first. I've floated a little of it already in the forums and it seems to have some good potential response so far.

In essence you suggest both a building's cost and yields will scale with era. I think it's a great idea and will be happy to help. I'll try to remember checking the forum every week or so.

 

[Thunderbrd]

In essence you suggest both a building's cost and yields will scale with era. I think it's a great idea and will be happy to help. I'll try to remember checking the forum every week or so.

Exactly. And more will be part of the project but you get the gist.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have to add, this the ROI is not an individual assessment.for this mod. It is more of a cumulative. You just can't go making wholesale changes. Selective choice can be dealt with but not wholesale. We are still coping with the Building Recosting Project that was just finished this fall. Game balance is not stabilized yet from it and the Tech Recosting that occurred as well.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Agree with JosEPh_II.

I am finding techs are happening a bit too fast on snail, up to 50% at some points. Meanwhile the costs of units and buildings mean that you have no hope of keeping up with the technological advances.

Raw ROI is also a bad measure, It may be useful for buildings that just produce one thing. Then there are modifiers that may change things completely

There is a program available on the C2C modders page that will extract those parts of buildings or whatever you are interested in from the actual XML in a form for use in spreadsheets. This may be a better place to work from as it is not what is thought is in the XML but what is actually in the XML. It does all the (turned on) modules as well as core.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Agree with JosEPh_II.

I am finding techs are happening a bit too fast on snail, up to 50% at some points. Meanwhile the costs of units and buildings mean that you have no hope of keeping up with the technological advances.

Raw ROI is also a bad measure, It may be useful for buildings that just produce one thing. Then there are modifiers that may change things completely

There is a program available on the C2C modders page that will extract those parts of buildings or whatever you are interested in from the actual XML in a form for use in spreadsheets. This may be a better place to work from as it is not what is thought is in the XML but what is actually in the XML. It does all the (turned on) modules as well as core.

And on Normal GS the techs come too slow. Way too slow. But the buildings and units still take too long to build as well.

 

[Thunderbrd]

And on Normal GS the techs come too slow. Way too slow. But the buildings and units still take too long to build as well.

I'm personally finding Marathon is right on with both.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm personally finding Marathon is right on with both.

How far up the Tech tree and Eras though? In other words how far have you gotten?

Reason for asking, will your game or DH's and even mine meet the Era dates? Or will they roll over like SO's save? I'm pretty sure I'm doing better than SO on Normal in this regard but 470+ turns out of 1000 and I'm in the middle of the Industrial Era. Ind. Era is # 6 out of 15 Eras to progress thru. Doesn't pan out well in this regard.

 

[Thunderbrd]

How far up the Tech tree and Eras though? In other words how far have you gotten?

Reason for asking, will your game or DH's and even mine meet the Era dates? Or will they roll over like SO's save? I'm pretty sure I'm doing better than SO on Normal in this regard but 470+ turns out of 1000 and I'm in the middle of the Industrial Era. Ind. Era is # 6 out of 15 Eras to progress thru. Doesn't pan out well in this regard.

Still prehistoric. I'm just talking about the ratio of tech achievement to building construction to unit training as well as the overall amount of play time to reach achievements. Perfect. As far as matching to dating, that's another matter and so far I can't give any feedback on that.

I can't build every building but I can keep myself building only that which would really benefit me.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Okay, when you get to Classical you should have a good idea. And it will be a matter too. It will expose your observation of now to the whole GS progression.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am finding the tech rate, in snail, fine up until the Classical Era. About mid way through they start getting fast then go slow again but not slow enough.

I am only getting time to build the crime and disease fighting buildings for the most part (after building the buildings). I can get some of the Wonders built but they are taking 30-60 turns to build when techs are taking 6-8.

As I said elsewhere my main "test of timeliness" is if I can build The Pyramids by 2500 BCE as Egypt with a source of stone. So far I have hit between 4,000 and 3,000 BCE. Mostly I study all the techs in a column before going to the next, with a couple of target techs along the way eg "Gathering" then "Tracking" at the start of the game.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I am finding the tech rate, in snail, fine up until the Classical Era. About mid way through they start getting fast then go slow again but not slow enough.

I am only getting time to build the crime and disease fighting buildings for the most part (after building the buildings). I can get some of the Wonders built but they are taking 30-60 turns to build when techs are taking 6-8.

As I said elsewhere my main "test of timeliness" is if I can build The Pyramids by 2500 BCE as Egypt with a source of stone. So far I have hit between 4,000 and 3,000 BCE. Mostly I study all the techs in a column before going to the next, with a couple of target techs along the way eg "Gathering" then "Tracking" at the start of the game.

And how is the AI in comparison to you? Any ahead of you, none? The AI will not pick up every Tech in each Era.

I have also found that there are "paths" thru the Ren and Industrial Eras that by pass many Techs to get to next Era. The AI in My Immortal Normal have already made it to middle Modern (for the most part) while I'm still in mid Industrial. Because they use these "paths". I'm ranked 4th now out of 9 but that is not from a tech lead.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I can get some of the Wonders built but they are taking 30-60 turns to build when techs are taking 6-8.

The multipliers we placed on wonders may be a bit high. Might have to tone them down a pt. Thus we were getting world wonders from a base X 8 equation and maybe it should be reduced to x6 instead, making Group wonders x4 (often limited to the era) and National Wonders x2 instead.

Would take a bit of time to go through and recost them again but their costs do seem a little too high.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

And how is the AI in comparison to you? Any ahead of you, none? The AI will not pick up every Tech in each Era.

I have also found that there are "paths" thru the Ren and Industrial Eras that by pass many Techs to get to next Era. The AI in My Immortal Normal have already made it to middle Modern (for the most part) while I'm still in mid Industrial. Because they use these "paths". I'm ranked 4th now out of 9 but that is not from a tech lead.

I appear to be 1/2 an era ahead of the other nations but I am not at all sure since I have not met any yet! I was alone on a small continent with some big islands near enough to get to but no connection to the wider world. I am guessing that they are that far behind by the wonders they are building.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I appear to be 1/2 an era ahead of the other nations but I am not at all sure since I have not met any yet! I was alone on a small continent with some big islands near enough to get to but no connection to the wider world. I am guessing that they are that far behind by the wonders they are building.

What difficulty are you on?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

What difficulty are you on?

I always test noble, snail, huge world.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I always test noble, snail, huge world.

Noble might explain why you are researching so much faster than you can construct and why I'm not having that issue as much with standard buildings. I'm playing on Immortal, as is Joe.

@JosEPh_II You might want to look at the differences between construction/train and research costs and outputs from one handicap to another that might be giving easier settings a little more benefit on research than on building/training. Or the other way around, however you prefer to look at it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Noble might explain why you are researching so much faster than you can construct and why I'm not having that issue as much with standard buildings. I'm playing on Immortal, as is Joe.

@JosEPh_II You might want to look at the differences between construction/train and research costs and outputs from one handicap to another that might be giving easier settings a little more benefit on research than on building/training. Or the other way around, however you prefer to look at it.

Noted.