I was definitely going to support Civ 6 but I am super offended

[godman85]

It's bad enough they keep white washing Egypt. Fine, its a trend they love and its been the same for a century in hollywood. I get it.

But what offends me is the Kongo.

WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?

Leader: Mvemba a Nzinga, also known as King Afonso I, Nzinga is most famous for his attempts to spread Christianity across his empire. He also increased activities with Portugal in a bid to modernise the empire. His unique ability is Nkisi - Relics, Artefacts and Great Works of Sculpture produce food, production and gold for their city in addition to the usual culture and tourism. You also generate Great Merchants and Great Artists twice as fast.


Special ability: Religious Convert. As a religious convert, a Mzinga cannot build Holy Sites. Instead, he can use the Founder belief of any religion that's established itself in a majority of Kongo's cities. Kongo also gets a free Apostle every time a Theatre District or M'banza is built - the Apostle follows the city's majority religion.


Let's break this down.

The only african civ in civ 6 is led by a leader who loves colonialism and spreads western religions throughout his empire.

This culture has no culture of its own and can't found a religion. LOL

This culture's leader loves the portuguese (the most brutal slavers in the atlantic trade.

This dude literally was the lowest of the dirt in African history.


I can see this dude as maybe a third or fourth african culture but the only one? This dude?


What's next. You gonna put the heroin hooked chinese leader who lost to the british and had his entire country wrecked as their faction leader and then paint that terrible past as something positive?

 

[I_pity_the_fool]

White washing Egypt? Cleopatra was at least 3/4 Greek.

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[Xur]

It's a game.......... They had Elvis in civ2.... Get over it.

 

[Dray]

Cleopatra wasn't white-washed at all... she's Greek.

 

[Depravo]

I'm super offended England's bonuses derive from overseas. Really I am. I might not even play the game because of it. It implies the English homeland was in some sense inferior and our success had in some way to do with 'becoming dependent' on others.

What's that? You don't care?

 

[AriochIV]

You are too fragile for this world.

 

[godman85]

White washing Egypt? Cleopatra was at least 3/4 Greek.

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Yes, but cleopatra was from the LEAST glorious part of the Empire. That was the lowest point in Egyptian History. It was owned by Rome at that time.

How do you pick a leader of a Civ that is not from the time period in which the civ was great?

That is like picking the mexican president as the leader of the Aztecs because he governed their land 1000 years later.


Then to make it funnier all their uniques are from 1500+ BCE, before greeks even knew how to sail across the Mediterranean.

 

[Dray]

That is like picking the mexican president as the leader of the Aztecs because he governed their land 1000 years later.

No it's not, because Cleopatra actually ruled Egypt.

 

[Ornen]

It's a game.......... They had Elvis in civ2.... Get over it.

When they shoulda had Big Mama Thornton!!

 

[godman85]

No it's not, because Cleopatra actually ruled Egypt.

1000 years later, she ruled a PROVINCE OF ROME CALLED EGYPT.

It was not an empire or civ. It was a province.

 

[Red Pearl]

This dude literally was the lowest of the dirt in African history.

You still haven't said anything that he did wrong.

 

[Stringer1313]

I agree with OP, but this discussion has already been had thoroughly in the Kongo thread.

I'm not as offended with Cleopatra as I am with Afonso. Yes Cleopatra was greek but her greek forbears had the throne for nearly 200-300 years (I think); it's like calling George Bush British. And she very much embraced her role as Isis incarnate. Afonso was just a sycophant. Really need a fierce leader from AFrica here.

 

[bite]

1000 years later, she ruled a PROVINCE OF ROME CALLED EGYPT.

It was not an empire or civ. It was a province.

It became a province after her death not before

 

[I_pity_the_fool]

1500 bc is the height of the Mycenaeans. Also around the time the Iliad takes place. So actually the Greeks - contrary to your ignorant dismissals of them - were indeed sailing the Mediterranean

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[I_pity_the_fool]

1000 years later, she ruled a PROVINCE OF ROME CALLED EGYPT.

It was not an empire or civ. It was a province.

No. Rome annexed Egypt from Cleopatra. Octavian (i think!) defeated her and incorporated it into the empire

Yes, but cleopatra was from the LEAST glorious part of the Empire. That was the lowest point in Egyptian History. It was owned by Rome at that time.

How do you pick a leader of a Civ that is not from the time period in which the civ was great?

That is like picking the mexican president as the leader of the Aztecs because he governed their land 1000 years later.


Then to make it funnier all their uniques are from 1500+ BCE, before greeks even knew how to sail across the Mediterranean.

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[Boris Gudenuf]

Yes, but cleopatra was from the LEAST glorious part of the Empire. That was the lowest point in Egyptian History. It was owned by Rome at that time.

It was 'owned' by Rome officially only after Cleopatra V was dead.
And she was, in fact, Macedonian and not Egyptian at all (the Dynasty, like most Egyptian dynasties, was inbred)
And she was picked because the majority of the potential game players and buyers could not name another ancient Egyptian leader except Tut, and many of them would mis-spell that...

Then to make it funnier all their uniques are from 1500+ BCE, before greeks even knew how to sail across the Mediterranean.

Hmmm. 1500 BCE was height of the Mycenean Greek culture on mainland Greece, and the height of the Minoan civilization on Crete which may or may not have been speaking Greek (I believe the jury is still out on Linear A as to whether it is Greek or not) but they had major contacts with Greece and much of their culture/religion/art was adopted by the Greeks: the Greek pantheon of Gods, after Olympus, had another mythical home on Crete, which makes them plenty enough Greekish for game purposes.

And not only could they sail across the Med to Egypt or the Aegean to Troy, this is also the period of the story of Jason and his Argonauts, which has been traced to sailing the length of the Black Sea (and a Bronze Age ship has been reconstructed that could do just that handily, from wreckage and visuals found in Greece and Crete)

If your argument is that Egypt has an inappropriate leader, it's not relevant to the game: I'm as interested in history as anybody on these Boards (I am a military historian by profession, for what it's worth) but even I know that Game Leaders are chosen for Familiarity and Sales, not historical appropriateness.

If Firaxis was writing a history of ancient Egypt with 1 chapter each on the Old and Middle Kingdoms and 10 chapters on Cleopatra V, they'd be wrong. In a Commercial Game, however, whatever sells and plays is right, and Mods and Modding are available to change things as you like...

 

[FooTooAy]

The OP has a point about Kongo -- but I look at this as a game first, and history second. Waaay second. If you let the reality of history color your gameplay, then every time your Civ spreads Catholicism, will you think about the thousands of children who were sexually abused by priests over the centuries? Even though it's historically accurate, it doesn't make for a super fun game of Civ.

And when your Civ is fighting a war, are you thinking about the actual realities of war? I sure don't. I'd like war to remain pixel-based, and not reality-based, thank you.

As far as the game goes, I do a lot of things I'd never do in real life.

As far as the real world goes, I'm with John Lennon -- let's give peace a chance and imagine no religion.

 

[Ebrim]

This is the worst kind of applying modern ideas to historical events. Give Mvemba the credit he's do that he tried to make the people he was responsible for the best off that he could. He couldn't see the global implications with the hindsight of centuries and he had virtually no concept of ideas that you are basically accusing him of betraying. Like many humans throughout history he was imperfect but trying to do the best he could. Kongo with Mvemba is a great addition to the game and I'm sorry you don't see that.

 

[godman85]

It was 'owned' by Rome officially only after Cleopatra V was dead.
And she was, in fact, Macedonian and not Egyptian at all (the Dynasty, like most Egyptian dynasties, was inbred)
And she was picked because the majority of the potential game players and buyers could not name another ancient Egyptian leader except Tut, and many of them would mis-spell that...



Hmmm. 1500 BCE was height of the Mycenean Greek culture on mainland Greece, and the height of the Minoan civilization on Crete which may or may not have been speaking Greek (I believe the jury is still out on Linear A as to whether it is Greek or not) but they had major contacts with Greece and much of their culture/religion/art was adopted by the Greeks: the Greek pantheon of Gods, after Olympus, had another mythical home on Crete, which makes them plenty enough Greekish for game purposes.

And not only could they sail across the Med to Egypt or the Aegean to Troy, this is also the period of the story of Jason and his Argonauts, which has been traced to sailing the length of the Black Sea (and a Bronze Age ship has been reconstructed that could do just that handily, from wreckage and visuals found in Greece and Crete)

If your argument is that Egypt has an inappropriate leader, it's not relevant to the game: I'm as interested in history as anybody on these Boards (I am a military historian by profession, for what it's worth) but even I know that Game Leaders are chosen for Familiarity and Sales, not historical appropriateness.

If Firaxis was writing a history of ancient Egypt with 1 chapter each on the Old and Middle Kingdoms and 10 chapters on Cleopatra V, they'd be wrong. In a Commercial Game, however, whatever sells and plays is right, and Mods and Modding are available to change things as you like...

I like this response.

 

[member66170]

Are you not trying to whitewash African history by denying the fact that colonialism happened and was supported by some African leaders?

Firaxis nowhere claimed that they are representing the high point and best part of African culture in the game. You made that assumption. And considering the massive diversity of Africa, you're being hugely racist just by thinking that such a representation is even possible.

I'm super offended that you have so little regard for the Africans to treat them in such a way. I'm no longer going to read any of your posts.