[MoO] ICEMOD: mod design, race design, strategies

[Markus Ramikin]

BTW, do AI ships ever pick +BD special systems like Inertial Stabilizer or Cloak I?

(Still suspect computers need a -25 nerf, but it will only help the player if the AI doesn't ever optimise for BD)

 

[Rocco.40]

They do pick the stabilizer from time to time.
Cloak I, I haven't seen it much yet, but I did program it in as an optionality.
But, AI is always super slow in researching the force fields branch...

 

[Markus Ramikin]

But, AI is always super slow in researching the force fields branch...

Ehehe, you're going to "love" my newest report. I'm currently on turn 211... I think you know how that sentence ends.

Wonder why this happens. I imagine AI personalities affect this, like a militarist will research... Chemistry (armors) and Physics?

But yeah, I've never seen Cloak I or II... I /think/ I saw Phasing Cloak once, not sure. If I ever met a Stabilizer, I don't remember.

 

[Rocco.40]

T211... i dont wanna know!!!

>> I had opponents with stabilizer in my last game, which made me quite happy

 

[Rocco.40]

For 10p, I have taken this approach for the BA situation:
- Battle Scanner moves back to Tachyon field (going full circle here) but bonus is reduced to +30.
- Then computers rebalanced as follow:

Base ...... Incl. Battle Scan .... Delta
+50 (25) ...... +80 (75) ..... +5 Electronic
+80 (75) ..... +110 (125) .. -15 Optronic
+110 (100) .. +140 (150) .. -10 Positronic
+140 (125) .. +170 (175) ... -5 Cybertronic
+170 (150) .. +200 (200) ... = Moleculartronic

This set-up make BS a less crucial tech (good for a.i.), gives beams a reasonable start with +50 and keeps an end game BA +200. But in mid game, there is less BA (-15, -10).

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Um.

*squint*

Is there some advantage to this compared to keeping BS for all but nerfing all computers except Electronic by 25? You're kind of screwing over AIs here, except Creatives.

 

[Rocco.40]

on previous page, when discussing Battle Scanner, you said that "it counts for quite a bit", arguing BA is now too high, especially when a.i. gets many ships, it starts to add up. Now I plan to move the Battle Scanner and you say I am screwing over a.i. ??
explain?

 

[Markus Ramikin]

explain?

All right.

The hit is much bigger. With Battle Scanner moved back to Tachyons, we can assume 2/3 of the time the AI won't have it, but the knowledgeable player always will, right? An AI that teched up to Positronic might right now have 100+50+15 (computer+BS+crew) = 165 BA vs my usual 140 defense. After this change it'll have 110+15 = 125 and especially if I keep my distance, it basically won't do diddely to me without a vastly bigger fleet. It's not -10, it's -40.

The -25 to computers proposal is smaller, and it affects the player too in a way this will not(*). It brings us closer to the vanilla balance between BA and BD, without screwing over AI or making early beams suck too much.

Does that make sense?

(*) Although the player side won't help that much if the AI doesn't use Stabilisers

EDIT: rewritten slightly because error.

 

[Rocco.40]

So this is your proposal:
Base ...... Incl. Battle Scan .... Delta
+25 (25) ...... +75 (75) ..... = Electronic
+50 (75) ..... +100 (125) .. -25 Optronic (900 field)
+75 (100) .. +125 (150) ... -25 Positronic (6200 field)
+100 (125) .. +150 (175) ... -25 Cybertronic (16700 field)
+125 (150) .. +175 (200) ... -25 Moleculartronic (24200 field)

It is basically vanilla computer values, with:
- All computers are available a tech level higher
- Battle Scanner free for all

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Yep, what's what I was thinking.

It is basically vanilla computer values

Except with less variance due to AI not knowing which techs are good.

 

[Dukinson]

.
Perhaps. The barrier is not an absoloute. But no matter how I balance, there will always be some favorite or best combo that arrises. Also, I am more concerned with changes that make the game more difficult than decreasing negative picks further which makes the game easier. On purpose I have broken the classic "Rep, -SD, -GC" combo and it now only gives -15 picks, leaving you with 6 short.

Well, the picks should be balanced. Whatever advantage a human has in picks, the AI should have them too, yes?

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Report: I gotta say, FeudTol with +20 spying is hideously fun when you get Psilons nearby.

 

[Dukinson]

For 10p, I have taken this approach for the BA situation:
- Battle Scanner moves back to Tachyon field (going full circle here) but bonus is reduced to +30.
- Then computers rebalanced as follow:

Base ...... Incl. Battle Scan .... Delta
+50 (25) ...... +80 (75) ..... +5 Electronic
+80 (75) ..... +110 (125) .. -15 Optronic
+110 (100) .. +140 (150) .. -10 Positronic
+140 (125) .. +170 (175) ... -5 Cybertronic
+170 (150) .. +200 (200) ... = Moleculartronic

This set-up make BS a less crucial tech (good for a.i.), gives beams a reasonable start with +50 and keeps an end game BA +200. But in mid game, there is less BA (-15, -10).

So this is your proposal:
Base ...... Incl. Battle Scan .... Delta
+25 (25) ...... +75 (75) ..... = Electronic
+50 (75) ..... +100 (125) .. -25 Optronic (900 field)
+75 (100) .. +125 (150) ... -25 Positronic (6200 field)
+100 (125) .. +150 (175) ... -25 Cybertronic (16700 field)
+125 (150) .. +175 (200) ... -25 Moleculartronic (24200 field)

It is basically vanilla computer values, with:
- All computers are available a tech level higher
- Battle Scanner free for all

Oh boy. I have to ask. Do you guys constantly play games where the computer can't hit your ships? This almost never happened to me even in vanilla. The only cases I can think of are against repulsive silicoids who can't trade and randomly miss all attack computer techs. With the change in AI personalities, even silicoids who neglect targeting may get it through planetary conquest or even spying. Normally the diplomatic races trade everything with everybody and someone always has bs and/or advanced targeting computers.

If you are selecting BS, you are missing tachyon communications! This is a critical tech early for having a decent sized fleet. Early on you're going to have a couple battleships, they should be elite targeting ships if you sacrificed tachyon com for BS. If BS is +30 and I already have +50, I don't really see any reason to waste space on my ships and select it over tachyon com even if I'm playing warlord.

I like the thought that my ships can actually dodge a little if I select warlord or ship defense or equip inertial stabilizers. Why bother now? I'd rather just have more mass drivers and have a shootout. Sure it will help to have some ship defense the first round when they're across the screen. Once they move a little closer, it won't really matter. They will hit with every shot. You've seen star wars right? Wasn't it neat how Han Solo was a badass at dodging those tie fighters? What I'm hearing here is, "I don't want the computer to ever miss again". That's harder, but also boring.

I'm all for making the game harder, but there are so many other ways.

 

[Dukinson]

What if BS was moved higher up the tech tree? That way no one has it early. This would improve the appeal of combative picks and advanced targeting computers as well.

 

[Dukinson]

One more "rule of negatives" besides the -12 barrier rule you would be well advised to break: multiples of three. I was on the fence about this before, but now I'm certain. There's no way you can properly balance all the picks by multiples of three. We all like getting all negatives to get the strongest race... or do you already see the problem with that statement? There are a set of "preferred negatives" that we all want to select because they aren't that bad and you've even made them more appealing to pick by neatly locking them together! I listed these problem picks in prior posts. The other picks are simply unpickable unless, as you say Rocco, you just want to pick them to make the game harder. When you are already planning to play a game on tough settings, however, your options on race design are limited. This makes race design less interesting and less varied.

I'm going to think about this some more and post a complete recommendation of negative picks but it will be something like this: Economy negatives should be "big ticket" negatives and combative picks should be "small ticket" negatives. In this fashion you will be able to get the -21 or close to it. Ofcourse if I may be optimistic, I hope you will also even out the negative to positive pick ratio as well and I would revise my ideas later on.

If you balance negative picks, perhaps getting the same combinations of negatives won't be so mandatory.

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Sure it will help to have some ship defense the first round when they're across the screen. Once they move a little closer, it won't really matter.

Then install your beams backwards and fly away after your salvo like with missiles

No, I don't actually do that. But then again I find my ships with Stabilisers pretty effective at protracted battles vs superior numbers. No, I don't dodge everything, but I often dodge enough.

Still, if you want defense to count for more, well, that's what my proposal leads to.

And you exaggerate how much computers spread techs to each other. Unless we're talking about different eras, and you're talking about 250-350 turns while I'm talking about 100-180, which is where I fight wars.

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Have any of you guys had this thing with IceX where a race appears as Repulsive in the Info listing, but you can actually do standard diplomacy with it? Specifically Bulrathi, for me.

 

[neilkaz]

For 10p, I have taken this approach for the BA situation:
- Battle Scanner moves back to Tachyon field (going full circle here) but bonus is reduced to +30.
- Then computers rebalanced as follow:

Base ...... Incl. Battle Scan .... Delta
+50 (25) ...... +80 (75) ..... +5 Electronic
+80 (75) ..... +110 (125) .. -15 Optronic
+110 (100) .. +140 (150) .. -10 Positronic
+140 (125) .. +170 (175) ... -5 Cybertronic
+170 (150) .. +200 (200) ... = Moleculartronic

This set-up make BS a less crucial tech (good for a.i.), gives beams a reasonable start with +50 and keeps an end game BA +200. But in mid game, there is less BA (-15, -10).

I'm not sure about weakening BA when using Opt or Pos computers.

This is a difficult area to balance and AI choices need to be considered as they are.

However, I am honestly OK with leaving all this as it is in v10n.

What is the issue with AI's and Battle Scanners? In v10n they get them included in the basic 50 RP computer tech. What then, do they not use them on their ships? But even so, they have them to help their SB's hit with beams in case of an early attack.

EDIT: I much prefer the way it is in v10n where non-cre can have both Tach Comms and Battle Scanners.

 

[Dukinson]

And you exaggerate how much computers spread techs to each other. Unless we're talking about different eras, and you're talking about 250-350 turns while I'm talking about 100-180, which is where I fight wars.

Oh I promise sir, I surely do not. It's nutty how fast they trade. Example: It's a problem if someone gets to Orion before I do. First turn, they take Orion. Second turn or third turn, everyone has death rays including whomever I may be at war with. It usually makes me laugh. Perhaps they all stole death rays with spys successfully on the next turn, but it's more likely they traded it. They don't need proper fuel cells, they just piggy back it from race to race until everyone has it. Most of the time in my games, every race has eachothers tech aside from a "tech leader" which has so many good techs, the others have nothing to barter with. The tech leader will only trade their valuable techs later on as other races develop more material. This leader is usually my spy target once I'm done robbing everyone else.

I'm often doing combat close to turn 100, unless I do not use repulsive. Then I can just sit back casually and decide when and who to fight.

 

[Dukinson]

But then again I find my ships with Stabilisers pretty effective at protracted battles vs superior numbers. No, I don't dodge everything, but I often dodge enough.

So you don't improve your performance by dropping the stabilizers and just throwing on more guns? I've played around back and forth with both ideas, the ships with more guns always did better. Those stabilizers aren't small. If I played with ship defense picks, perhaps I could see them being better.