ICS discussion

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If you can't build more TR or cities for TR, only then you do something else. Even ignoring the limiting health mechanic. Everybody has realized that by now...

I agree. I mean, if you don't mind Civ: Trade Route Simulator, then I guess you don't have to call this "OP" but I'm not sure it's worth it to get tied up in semantics. The fact is that right now there is exactly one obvious and best way to increase science and production, and it's more cities followed by immediate 3x trade routes, and the jump you get is massive.

If you think that this is awesome ... um, okay, I guess, but I liked the fact that Civ had moved away from ICS as optimal. I would add that it also doesn't make any sense whatsoever that building size-1 city should be able to, in many cases, immediately increase the scientific output of your faction by 20-30%, but then people would whine that Civ isn't supposed to make sense. Ditto a size-1 city helping the capital get a production bump that is even bigger than what the size-1 city can generate on its own.

That said, I like that cities can grow faster and you don't have to babysit the little buggers and wait forever for them to be useful. I'm sure they can find a happy medium ...
 
ICS refers to Infinite City Sprawl, a strategy based on optimizing tile output by placing cities at very, very close distances. Both Civ5 and CivBE outright forbids ICS by dint of the large minimum city distance.
 
ICS refers to Infinite City Sprawl, a strategy based on optimizing tile output by placing cities at very, very close distances. Both Civ5 and CivBE outright forbids ICS by dint of the large minimum city distance.

As I'm sure you well know, the meaning of ICS has changed since the first Civ, and now many use it to refer to the strategy of "Build as many cities as you can".
 
As I'm sure you well know, the meaning of ICS has changed since the first Civ, and now many use it to refer to the strategy of "Build as many cities as you can".

IIRC, ICS was actually developed during Civ2, not Civ1. ICS was largely unchanged with Civ3. It was still possible then. Owing to similar distancing mechanics, ICS eventually becomes possible with Civ4, and in any case, bringing up your Civ the fastest in Civ4 still involved maximizing tile usage ASAP.

Many use it now to refer to indefinite expansion, but that meaning is incorrect, and I don't know what's wrong with indefinite expansion anyway. Certainly Civ4 and Civ5 eventually allows you to do so, and only the last few versions of Civ5 definitively put small, tall empire ahead of wide ones marginally.

Using ICS that way betrays a fundamental lack of nuance in discussing the issues of expansion and resource mechanics in Civ-type games, and suggests that the user doesn't really know what it means, nor why it's bad.
 
I think ICS still makes sense as a term for Civ V and BE for founding as many cities as you can at the minimum distance from each other, even if the minimum distance has changed. It really doesn't make sense as a term for founding a large number of cities.
 
I think ICS still makes sense as a term for Civ V and BE for founding as many cities as you can at the minimum distance from each other, even if the minimum distance has changed. It really doesn't make sense as a term for founding a large number of cities.

The thing is, there's really not much reason NOT to found cities at minimum distance from each other in CivBE, given the growth trajectory and the food bins. A city footprint has something like 37 tiles full, plus the Specialist slots. That is a great deal more than a City will be able to use within the course of the game. It is far more likely to use between 13 and 20 tiles or less. The minimum distance the game gives you is often the best distance to found cities to maximize tile usage within the spirit of the game. This metric is no longer useful since the designers have simply made the point completely moot.

As for founding as many cities as you can - well, you always do that in a Civ game. The only barrier is the limiting mechanics; and as I said, I don't see any particular trouble with unlimited expansion in a game about interstellar colonization.

"ICS" made sense in Civ2, Civ3, and Civ4. It made sense in Civ5 when Health was lax and the minimum distance was low and we actually still cared about curving out on the tile outputs. It makes no sense in CivBE, particularly because a lot of the output is no longer on the tiles.
 
Moderator Action: ICS discussion split off from Patch Notes into its own thread
 
ICS has always been more evocative as a phrase rather than literal. As a result, it means different things to different people, who place emphasis on different connotations.

grid placement, unproductive terrain placement - for some people ICS means that optimal city placement becomes more about relative location to other cities rather than terrain or other values. Specifically that you are optimally to follow a pattern that crams the most cities in the allowed space. (emphasis on "sprawl")

no limit to # of productive cities - for some people ICS is about the marginal value of additional cities. if there is no inflection point where the marginal value of an additional city turns negative (where it costs more to create and maintain than it produces to build another city)... other than the fact that you're very close to winning and just don't have time to get a return on investment... then for them it's ICS. (emphasis on "infinite")

high limit to # of cities - for some people it's just as bad if the limit to number of productive cities is "high" to them (say, 10 or more), because they prefer a smaller empire aesthetically or to avoid micromanagement. (suggestive of "infinite")

early game build order - for some people it's neither about the number of cities or their placement but rather about the early game build order and pacing of the game in general. if there's low incentive to slow down early game expansion and optimal play involves a "land grab" phase without any significant reason to consolidate, then that's ICS-ish for them. (sometimes also just called the "land grab" or "land rush")

shallow optimal city improvement list - much more applicable to early iterations of Civ, this is a statement about the value of a building versus the value of a city, particularly with reference to some third option for production like units. For example, if there's a bunch of improvements that don't pay off as well as building simply settlers, granaries, and military units. (sometimes also called "zerg")

The term is almost always negative, even pejorative, and as such it's actually been imbued with several shades of meaning. Failing to distinguish them has led to a lot of talking at cross purposes. (It doesn't help that these features often show up together...)
 
The thing is, there's really not much reason NOT to found cities at minimum distance from each other in CivBE,

There's bound to be some cases where founding the minimum tiles allowed will permanently block you out of working an important tile due to the shape of the coast line and existing cities / stations with the minimum hexes allowed being 3.

The internet was in its infancy in Civ 1 days, I have not gone back and checked to see if there was any usenet civ 1 threads with ICS or not, but that tactic that was on web sites in Civ 2 would definitely have worked for Civ 1.

Yes, up to and including Civ IV, ICS meaning had nothing to do with how many cities you intended to self found, but only meant minimum allowed city placement.
(Even with Civ III disallowing Civ II's previous placement, which basically caused a relabel of that formation to ICS with all other city placement patterns unaffected.) Basically if there was a large enough spot for a city, it should eventually be founded as there was no way (Civ III and before) almost no way (Civ IV) that it would hurt the empire as a whole. That's even if it didn't really add much to the empire.
Civ V actually introduced reasons why a new self founded city could harm the empire (global happiness, a Golden age counter tied to global happiness, 100% cities needing to build yet another copy of the same building for national wonder, conquered cities being exempt) that after the vanilla balance patches removed enough happiness from the game, the concept of always founding empty spots until there were no more left was also killed. [In fact 4 was arrived at as optimum number on a standard map size]

CD release of BE has greatly increased the optimum number of cities to self found on standard map size, but with there being key thresholds unless you're already below -20 health with no plans to get above that threshold there is a point in which you'd be so close to winning that you'll be slightly slowed down if you self found an extra city.
 
There's bound to be some cases where founding the minimum tiles allowed will permanently block you out of working an important tile due to the shape of the coast line and existing cities / stations with the minimum hexes allowed being 3.

The internet was in its infancy in Civ 1 days, I have not gone back and checked to see if there was any usenet civ 1 threads with ICS or not, but that tactic that was on web sites in Civ 2 would definitely have worked for Civ 1.

Yes, up to and including Civ IV, ICS meaning had nothing to do with how many cities you intended to self found, but only meant minimum allowed city placement.
(Even with Civ III disallowing Civ II's previous placement, which basically caused a relabel of that formation to ICS with all other city placement patterns unaffected.) Basically if there was a large enough spot for a city, it should eventually be founded as there was no way (Civ III and before) almost no way (Civ IV) that it would hurt the empire as a whole. That's even if it didn't really add much to the empire.
Civ V actually introduced reasons why a new self founded city could harm the empire (global happiness, a Golden age counter tied to global happiness, 100% cities needing to build yet another copy of the same building for national wonder, conquered cities being exempt) that after the vanilla balance patches removed enough happiness from the game, the concept of always founding empty spots until there were no more left was also killed. [In fact 4 was arrived at as optimum number on a standard map size]

CD release of BE has greatly increased the optimum number of cities to self found on standard map size, but with there being key thresholds unless you're already below -20 health with no plans to get above that threshold there is a point in which you'd be so close to winning that you'll be slightly slowed down if you self found an extra city.

Civ 4 has lots of reason to not make useless crap cities. Cities' costs could make them very negative. Only by the time of corporations and state property does one reach the point of ICS, which is fine, as that is the late game and one should expect an empire game to allow a empire at SOME point.
 
ICS refers to Infinite City Sprawl, a strategy based on optimizing tile output by placing cities at very, very close distances. Both Civ5 and CivBE outright forbids ICS by dint of the large minimum city distance.
ICS is about maximazing city count through maximazing city density. obviously that means that cities must placed at minimal distances.

ICS cities are usually stopped growing right before the natural happiness cap. no buildings are built in them.

IIRC, ICS was actually developed during Civ2, not Civ1. ICS was largely unchanged with Civ3. It was still possible then. Owing to similar distancing mechanics, ICS eventually becomes possible with Civ4, and in any case, bringing up your Civ the fastest in Civ4 still involved maximizing tile usage ASAP.

Many use it now to refer to indefinite expansion, but that meaning is incorrect, and I don't know what's wrong with indefinite expansion anyway. Certainly Civ4 and Civ5 eventually allows you to do so, and only the last few versions of Civ5 definitively put small, tall empire ahead of wide ones marginally.
ICS originated in civ1.

in civ4 early ICS is effectively killed. the player can spam cities later in the game, but the game's mechanics severely limit the usefullness of these later cities.

before the BNW expansion for civ5, ICS was the optimal way to play the game.
the BNW expansion introduced the "per city science penalty" (each new city: self-founded, puppeted, etc. will increase the cost of all techs by 5%). the penalty killed wide empires.

Civ 4 has lots of reason to not make useless crap cities. Cities costs could make them very negative. Only by the time of corporations and state property did the one reach the point of ICS, which is fine, as that is the late game and one should expect an empire game to allow a empire at SOME point.
yeah! the whole point of an empire-building game is to build an empire. Firaxis forgot that :lol:

as for civ4: any city costs maintainance (e.g. gold). with Currency, Free Market and/or The Lighthouse, afaik, any newly city may yield more gold than must be paid for it.
 
The tactic would have definitely worked for Civ1, but as with joncnunn, I don't recall encountering the tactic in any thread or discussion until after the advent of Civ2. It's possible that it existed and was known, but not popular or well-known.

kirbdog:

The term is almost always negative, even pejorative, and as such it's actually been imbued with several shades of meaning. Failing to distinguish them has led to a lot of talking at cross purposes. (It doesn't help that these features often show up together...)

Very much agreed and often my point. ICS as a tactic felt exploitative in the Civ1 and Civ2 eras because the cities were 1 tile apart - so close that it looked and felt extremely unnatural. A hard minimum limit of 2 or 3 tiles would have put paid to the tactic immediately, but designers forbore to implement it. Indeed, I often placed my cities in Civ4 2 tiles apart since that allowed faster use of all the tiles under my control.

Hail

ICS is about maximazing city count through maximazing city density. obviously that means that cities must placed at minimal distances.

ICS cities are usually stopped growing right before the natural happiness cap. no buildings are built in them.

Happiness was rarely the point or issue in ICS. Density was only a sub-category of concern. ICS was powerful because growth was exponentially powerful and easier at the lower population scores, so it was often much faster to harvest tile outputs by building new cities rather than waiting for older cities to grow new population. Moreover, city tile outputs are better than normal tile outputs, so cramming as many as the minimum would allow was (and still is) the best plan.

For both these reasons, increased city count was often better, but it is important to note the reasons. City count itself was not the point of ICS. It has underlying factors that made it powerful.

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Civ5's very large minimum city distance and Specialist Slots means that even when you settle cities at the minimum distance, you have to grow the cities significantly before you can see the maximum return from each one. This puts a severe dent into one of the core aspects of ICS, equivalent to a minimum 4 tile space between cities in the earlier Civs - essentially the "optimum" placement perfectionists could accept.

Ironically, the "perfect" placement many purists think necessary to evoke a more "natural" city feel is betrayed by a night-time satellite view of many places in the world today. A megacity like Manila is several cities built at very close proximity. The sprawl of such sites evokes ICS very much.

This is additionally undermined in CivBE because the game intentionally wants the player to be able to benefit from nearly any city founded nearly anywhere. That's the spirit of Terraforming.
 
as for civ4: any city costs maintainance (e.g. gold). with Currency, Free Market and/or The Lighthouse, afaik, any newly city may yield more gold than must be paid for it.

Yeah, the Great Light house on a particularly watery map does begin to approach ICS, but it will still hit a point of diminishing returns where fewer cities could be better than more. But it's a huge increase in the optimal number, from 7-9 to 13-19 (depends on difficulty, map size, whether or not your civ is financial for the superior coastal tiles which will sadly be among the best useable tiles on a watery map).
 
I loathed ICS and I am glad that it is gone. But I do feel like civ5 went too far in the other direction. It is important to understand that ICS was not settling lots of cities, it was a specific strategy of packing as many cities as possible on your land with nothing in them because the game used to encourage quantity over quality. Having more cities with no buildings in them gave you more than having fewer cities with buildings in them.

I think the game should encourage both "going wide" and "going tall". Ideally, there should be a constant tug-of-war between expanding and consolidating your empire. If you expand too fast without consolidating what you have, you should run a risk of losing your cities (rebellion, foreign invasion, disease etc) but if you consolidate too much and don't expand, you lose out on territory, resources, and run the risk of falling behind other empires.

I think % bonuses to buildings are a good way of encouraging "going tall" and thus discouraging ICS since big cities will be better than small cities. I also think that making strategic resources more important will encourage expansion since you will be at a disadvantage if you don't expand to get them. And I think having trade routes per city is a good way to encourage expansion since more cities will be a good thing (as long as the yields are balanced). But I think bringing back local happiness with a real chance of cities flipping or declaring independence is a good way to force players to consolidate and not expand forever. Players will need to build happiness buildings in cities to keep them from flipping (consolidation part). So ICS won't work because you will just end up with losing cities you just founded.

Civ is an empire-building game after all. So expanding and building an empire should be what the game is all about. There should just be challenges and obstacles that make it difficult to hold an empire that is too large.
 
For me, ICS does not exist in this game in original definition. If there is a particular group of resources that would work best for one city to be located 2-3 tiles further than the nearest open space to build the city, then I will stretch my empire and make a more powerful city by claiming these resources and tying them all to one city. Later on I may put in another city in the small gap that exists between these two cities. Finding the puzzle pieces of good city placement is a fun part of the game that I enjoy.

However, this is a 4x game, and one of those is to expand. I find that at any point of the game, that one of those X's is no longer being played out, that the game becomes less fun. This is often why the end game is such a chores, and usually 2-3 of the X's are gone, and all you have left is maintaining the balance of what you have built up and seeing it through to "the end".
 
You've got the science and culture penalties discouraging ICS in this game, so having a ton of cities might not make sense for those yields. (someone can probably crunch the maths on what a new city needs to give you to not be dragging your empire down in that regard)

Health is pretty toothless as a mechanic right now and is getting rebalanced in the patch, so we might see it discouraging rapid negative-health expansion in future.
 
You've got the science and culture penalties discouraging ICS in this game, so having a ton of cities might not make sense for those yields. (someone can probably crunch the maths on what a new city needs to give you to not be dragging your empire down in that regard)

Health is pretty toothless as a mechanic right now and is getting rebalanced in the patch, so we might see it discouraging rapid negative-health expansion in future.
Someone did. Two trade routes can easily get you 20 science so you're probably okay up 400 empire wide science to build new cities. That's pretty high.
 
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