Idea: Mounted Mages for Hippus

[MaxAstro]

I think the mounted thing could be pushed too far for the Hippus; just because they are the horselords doesn't mean they need to have a mounted version of ~everything~. Mounted mages would tend to give them better mages, which should not be their domain. I do like the idea of a mounted unit with Maelstrom or something similar; either a UU or even a new National Unit, since they do only have one favored national unit. Perhaps as a Berserker replacement?

Mounted settlers have always seemed like a cool and appropriate idea for the Hippus, too.

 

[xienwolf]

Dude, the Hippus should have Mounted Horses!

 

[MaxAstro]

YES. This is a thing that must be done. XD

 

[WarKirby]

Mounted mages would tend to give them better mages, which should not be their domain.

The Idea I'm playing with here, is that these mounted mages would certainly be better overall units than normal mages, but they would be worse mages than other mages, due to no free promotions, less spell damage, slower passive xp, no twincast or spell extension, etc.

They'd also be worse soldiers than the actual mounted line. They'd be more well rounded, and better suited to frontline combat duty, but at the same time, they'd also be inferior in raw power to mounted units at similar tech levels, therefore relying on their combination of strength and magic to excel together, where they excel at neither alone.

Possible other ideas:
Higher level req. for upgrading (Multiclassing takes more work!)

Summons don't get empowered. Could be done via a promotion given to summons from Arcane Rider, which would block and overwrite Empower I-V, Mobility, and Strong. That promotion could even apply a strength penalty to the summoned unit or some other penalty, farther weakening their magical capabilities.

 

[Tasunke]

if they are going to be extremely weaker, maybe an alternative for all civs is better than a hippus UU .... I dont think they need any kind of mounted adept or mounted archmage, but mounted mages with fireball or maelstrom with a lil investment in the arcane would be nice.

 

[WarKirby]

I see two problems, currently.

1. The Hippus can't use mages very well, because they don't keep up with the army
2. The Hippus are boring.

Adding something new for all civs would solve 1, but not 2. I was thinking that the general point here, was to have a new, unique toy for hippus to play with. Something they're badl lacking. They have ONE UU, for science' sake. And no unique mechanics other than a straightforward buff to their horses.

 

[Tasunke]

maybe they can get 100% increase from gold agreements (somehow ... highway robbery?)

maybe hippus units in a city with a gambling house can buy the bounty hunter promotion? seems logical ... they are a clan based society, make bragging rights for their kills, make bets on how many they can kill, seems fitting for gambling house, since thats very hippus flavorful since they are mammon-like even if they are mostly Tali.

I dont see any reason to make mounted mages any stronger, just the extra movement +no free promo at the beginning should work decently. all this about higher level prereqs, and slower passive exp, makes me think it will turn into no mages instead of footmen mages. I would rather have footmen mages than no mages.
My vote is for only added movement and no free promo, as well as the added tech prereqs.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm still leaning towards letting Horselord apply to arcane units too, and making this give them mounted graphics. That would make Hippus Arcane units have 1 extra movement point (and a 10% withdrawal chance) so they can keep up a little better but still not be as fast as their advance units.

 

[Tasunke]

that could work too. it would be nice to have even 3 movement mages, for no downside.

 

[citizenalex]

From a guy who just loves getting cavalry-raped by the Hippus time and time again on empreror difficulty, bring it on! Just make sure to add vampire lords with +10 affinity to body mana and a dragon hero unit for every civ. That should even out the playing field for every other civ that can't build mages with an inherent hit and run ability (assuming that mage has access to the same promos as cavalry).

Last I checked, the attack/retreat from units with flanking still get a small amount of XP for the effort, and all cavalry units (including Kuriotate Centaurs) can go to the master rancher and get additionnal buffs that would make a mage pretty deadlier then originally intended. It's a big can of worms, and it's rather odd to be giving that away to an already questionnably balanced civ like the Hippus.

...
But then again, Calabim are pretty questionnalby balanced too, so go ahead...

 

[Iceciro]

You seem like you'd hate my old design philosophy, alex:

"The Cabalim and Scions aren't overpowered. Everybody else is underpowered, let's fix that."

Then again, I did pretty @!$$# well with the Amurites in the end...

Anyways, back on topic - I think the tradeoff of no free promos for the horselord promo (and thus the free movement) is quite enough of a trade - and if you don't make the promo change the actual type of the unit, they won't be able to go to the Master Rancher or take other mounted-unit type buffs.

 

[Valkrionn]

You seem like you'd hate my old design philosophy, alex:

"The Cabalim and Scions aren't overpowered. Everybody else is underpowered, let's fix that."

Then again, I did pretty @!$$# well with the Amurites in the end...

Anyways, back on topic - I think the tradeoff of no free promos for the horselord promo (and thus the free movement) is quite enough of a trade - and if you don't make the promo change the actual type of the unit, they won't be able to go to the Master Rancher or take other mounted-unit type buffs.

My attitude exactly. Noone really noticed, but I never did tone down the Doviello.... And they were capable of freeing Bridget inside 100 turns on normal if you really tried. They're average enough late game that I'm okay with them being early gods.

 

[Lemminkäinen]

I am agreeing 100% with Warkirby. Hippus are a bit boring (just finished a game as them) and the mounted units are a bit one-dimensional.

 

[Iceciro]

I think a good example of this are the new Amurites (not that I am biased.)

While their magic is strong, magic permeates the entire civ - potentially every unit they create - as opposed to them just having really good mages. That's the difference here - the Hippus just have "good mounted units" but they really should play as "the civ that does everything on the back of a horse."

 

[Valkrionn]

There's some mounted settler art out there too.... Could be interesting to give them one.

 

[WarKirby]

....and all cavalry units (including Kuriotate Centaurs) can go to the master rancher and get additionnal buffs....

Just a minor point here

That's BUY additional buffs. For sometimes rather significant amounts of gold. And don't forget the opportunity cost of getting a rancher in the fist place - researching feudalism which is otherwise not very useful, and getting a great engineer, which is hard for warlike civs who can't make Artisan's workshops. Can Hippus ?

 

[odalrick]

Anyways, back on topic - I think the tradeoff of no free promos for the horselord promo (and thus the free movement) is quite enough of a trade - and if you don't make the promo change the actual type of the unit, they won't be able to go to the Master Rancher or take other mounted-unit type buffs.

I hope you're only talking about the adept free promotion. Removing the free promotion from mage and archmage stage would be bad. Once you upgrade to mage you should be able to use mage level spells without having to wait another 50 turns for the next promotion.

Just a minor point here

That's BUY additional buffs. For sometimes rather significant amounts of gold. And don't forget the opportunity cost of getting a rancher in the fist place - researching feudalism which is otherwise not very useful, and getting a great engineer, which is hard for warlike civs who can't make Artisan's workshops. Can Hippus ?

And those buffs are designed to help mounted units, not arcane. Sure, you get a stronger mage, but regular rider would be stronger still.

 

[Tasunke]

the mounted mages would still be arcane unitcombat ... just one extra movement from the horselord promo.

 

[Randomness]

I personally think that mounted mages is an interesting idea, but I you want to make the Hippus more fun I don't think it is enough. I like the idea of allowing all Hippus units the Horselords promo, but I also think that they should be able to buy and sell and manner of units (they are supposed to be a civ of mercenaries...).

 

[xienwolf]

You COULD aim for the simple approach to a temporary solution:

A Hippus only "Recruit" spell which can be cast in any city with a Master building (one spell per building) which hires a unit of the appropriate unitcombat. You can pretty easily code the python to make them hire the strongest unit that their current technology enables for them, or you could go "cheap" and just spawn the weakest unit of that unitcombat and make them promote the unit themselves.


Then the Hippus can go gold-centric for unit production, but at the start of the game will be VERY Great Person hungry to get the initial Master Buildings out there. You also avoid the issue of the old Guild of the Nine where you popped out an army instantly in a newly captured city because you have to BUILD the master building first (though if you brought along a great person...)

Of course, there isn't a Master building in the Arcane line, so that doesn't help the Hippus with their mages at all, except that they don't need to build any units other than mages, so can focus on getting more of them. :shrug: