[Idea] Realistic City Siege

[Thunderbrd]

Ah... interesting mechanic. Not sure that a moat is best to represent it though. Maybe a turret tower or something else that's pinning down units from much movement outside of attack or get out of there would be a better representation for that.

But the point is made anyhow that it does nothing to S&D (well... it still may but not against the city with the Zone of Control itself.

 

[Hydromancerx]

hmm... I wonder... my understanding of Zone of Control is that it negates the ability of attackers to attack from any but one plot (which goes unmarked which is terribly frustrating!) I wonder if this means that when the S&D processing runs its check on combat strengths on adjacent potential attackers that they aren't evaluated anyhow due to not being 'potential attackers' since they are standing in plots from which they may not attack? In a sense, this might be negating all S&D bonuses brought against the city by default. That would be something to investigate.

As for Traps and Dynamic Defense...
I could see traps adding to a general repel factor in the city (not by unit combat so I'd have to do up a new tag for that) but not so much for Dynamic Defense. There's a difference here:

DD(Dynamic Defense): The % of reduction of an attacker's compiled Surround & Destroy bonuses.

Repel: The % chance that the attacker is forced to immediately withdraw upon the first round of combat, in which the defender deals damage, after all first strike rounds.

Repel does sound like a good idea for traps as an approaching unit may find their approach needs serious re-evaluation due to a failed attempt to cross a trapped region.

Since any flat iLocalRepelModifier (which I'd be happy to add to the dll right away) would be a modifier to the defender's repel values which can also get fairly strong, I'd keep it to a level of moderation, something like:

Pit Traps (Mining) = 10 Local Repel
Mechanical Traps (Machinery) = 20 Local Repel
Landmines (Mine Warfare) = 30 Local Repel
Booby Traps (Guerrilla Warfare) = 40 Local Repel
Robotic Traps (Military Robotics) = 50 Local Repel

We'll have to immediately start reviewing our units and promos for applying the Unyielding ability (fearlessness in the face of danger) if we start using Repel. And we'll have to add some promo lines for adding Unyielding, and perhaps some Repel ability (which is an ability intended for Archers, Guns, Defensive Siege, Spears and Chemical weapons (including natural ones such as the Skunk)).

I'd also figured we'd want to have wall and castle addons such as Battlements, Murder Holes, Arrow Slits and Portcullises add to the Repel abilities of Archers, Throwing, (and to a lesser extent Gun units as well). I realize we have some of these already. Gates and Gatehouses could add to the Repel values of Melee defenders.

The thought carries along though too... if the unit is NOT repelled by a trap building, should the trap building then add a free chance to deal some damage from the trap itself to the unit once the repel attempt fails or is overcome? That would be a whole new factor for the combat mechanism and although makes sense, would tweak the odds in a way that would be hard to account for.

Hmm yeah repel sounds good for traps. As for the Castle stuff we inherited from RoM/AND are ...

- Moat = Zone of Control
- Balistraia (aka Arrow Slits) = +50% Strength to Archery Units, +25% Strength to Gunpowder Units
- Catacombs = +10% , 5% Chance an Enemy can get in the City.
- Castle Gatehouse = Cannot Enter City until below 30% Defense, -5 Crime
- Dungeon = 1 who dies attacking the city (max 8), 1 fades after 8 turns.
- Balista Turret = Adjacent Units get 20% Damage per turn. -2 Crime.
- Herbalist = 1 Unit Per turn will be healed. -10 Disease.
- Castle Keep = Nearby Battles will not effect culture. Citizens will rebel against captors +200% longer. +50% Defense.

Note some have been tweaked for C2C (such as the crime and disease stats). Also these work on the Star Fort as well as the Castle now and I added some new stuff like the Castle Drawbridge.

 

[Sgtslick]

The thing is though, bombarding is the problem imo. Walls should significantly help prevent bombard damage!
Bombarding is so easy.. Whenever I attack a city I pretty much always knock the value down to 0% in 1 turn [easily]. If bombarding was say.. 3x as hard it'd be much better imo. Then buildings such as those that damage units in surrounding tiles would actually be worth building. This is especially true if you're playing on big maps where you have a large number of cities and you can spam siege units.

This would help in turn help nerf the siege unit promotions that give bombarding bonuses. These promotions further compound the issue and make city defenses pretty much useless.

 

[Faustmouse]

Repel: The % chance that the attacker is forced to immediately withdraw upon the first round of combat, in which the defender deals damage, after all first strike rounds.

Why would a melee attacker withdraw from an archer once he is in h2h range (meaning: on the wall, through the gates etc)? It would make MUCH more sense when he is repeled when he realizes how high the walls are, in the Firststrike rounds...

 

[Thunderbrd]

Why would a melee attacker withdraw from an archer once he is in h2h range (meaning: on the wall, through the gates etc)? It would make MUCH more sense when he is repeled when he realizes how high the walls are, in the Firststrike rounds...

TBH, I'll have to check the code... it's entirely possible it could still work during FS rounds. I agree... particularly with an adjustment to the way FS is derived that's being planned here. But I MAY have made it not take effect until after FS rounds to make it more useful to the defender who can take more advantage of the battle.

 

[Nimek]

@Sgtslick

I aso agree that defense values from walls line should be doubled at the same noentry levels.

In civ 1 walls gives +200% defense what is realistic. In C2C walls gives only +30% defense it is very low.
Also we have a lot of promotions to +% to city attack.

It is easy to get a unit with above +100% against cities.

Moat line could look like this

dry moat -> spiked moat -> water moat (current moat)

 

[Faustmouse]

@Sgtslick

I aso agree that defense values from walls line should be doubled at the same noentry levels.

In civ 1 walls gives +200% defense what is realistic. In C2C walls gives only +30% defense it is very low.
Also we have a lot of promotions to +% to city attack.

It is easy to get a unit with above +100% against cities.

Moat line could look like this

dry moat -> spiked moat -> water moat (current moat)

I think you can rise the defensebonus from Walls even more than just by 30%. Since you can bombard them completely down, they could be 300% - or more. It should be almost impossible that even a VERY skilled Swordman with a Commander is able to invade a city with castle and highwalls with a longbowman defender.


And for the Moats, someone mentioned a Quicksand-Moat. I could even think of a burning-Moat. A dry Moat that be filled fast with oil and then burned.
Or a poisoned spikes moat.
Or (ok, we're getting quite unrealistic): A vulcano (lava) moat.

 

[Koshling]

I think you can rise the defensebonus from Walls even more than just by 30%. Since you can bombard them completely down, they could be 300% - or more. It should be almost impossible that even a VERY skilled Swordman with a Commander is able to invade a city with castle and highwalls with a longbowman defender.


And for the Moats, someone mentioned a Quicksand-Moat. I could even think of a burning-Moat. A dry Moat that be filled fast with oil and then burned.
Or a poisoned spikes moat.
Or (ok, we're getting quite unrealistic): A vulcano (lava) moat.

With vicinity bonus tar a building could be available, called 'burning oil'. Gives walls an adjacent enemy damage, and has some bonus for dry moats maybe.

 

[Nimek]

Burning oil

Could give big defense bonus against rams.

 

[Dissonance]

Burning oil

Could give big defense bonus against rams.

For example, damage any attacking ram by 20% or more

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Nimek & Thunderbrd

So what are the current plans for changes then?

1. What building are DD going on and at what rate? Is it still walls? Or something else like moats, traps, towers, etc. ?

2. Are wall defenses being increased? If so by how much? Also will other defensive structures be increased such as gates, towers, traps, castles/forts, etc?

3. How should moats be done? I am not sure about the proposed upgrades. I wonder if they should just be add-ons rather than replacements. Such as dry moat + spiked moat + water moat where you can have any and/or all, but each increases defense and gives zone of control.

4. How should iRiverDefensePenalty be done for bridges?

5. Burning oil swear we had a burning oil thing or murder holes. If not I could make them.

EDIT: Here is the original castle topic. It appears to have Murder Holes.

 

[Nimek]

1
Palisades = 15 DD
Earth Walls = 20 DD
Walls = 25 DD
High Walls = 30 DD
Moat = 30 DD
Castle = 40 DD
2tar Fort = 50 DD
Barricades = 60 DD
Barbed Wire Fence = 70 DD
Cement Barrier = 80 DD
Arcology Shielding = 90 DD
Advanced Shielding = 95 DD

2

Defenses of all above should be doubled. Not sure about others.
I think big repel bonus for traps line and sad protection is enought
3
Upgradable moat path
Dry moat - spiked moat - water moat

First 2 could require earth wall or pallisades
Third walls or high walls or castle
5

Burning oil require python work i think to add demage to rams on city bombardment.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Nimek

1. I will have to think on that one. I am not sure if the moat should be included with the walls. Or if walls should even get it. They already are very powerful with the stuff they have. Perhaps DD should be on towers or something. Something like ...

Walls = Prevent Entering the City until Defenses are Lowered
Towers = Reduce Surround & Destroy bonuses
Moats = Provides Zone of Control
Traps = Provides Repel

3. I disagree and think that each should be separate and do not replace the other. That way you can have multi-moats for even more defense. Maybe even have a difference between Castle/Fort and City moats. Thus having an inner and outer moat.

EDIT: A proposal for Towers providing DD instead of walls.

Frontier Outpost (Carpentry) = 5 DD
Fortified Outpost (Masonry) = 10 DD
Watch Tower (Mathematics) = 15 DD
Guard Tower (Siege Warfare) = 20 DD
Tower Keep (Engineering) = 30 DD
Bombard Tower (Gunpowder) = 40 DD
Artillery Battery (Artillery) = 50 DD
Auto-Cannon Batter (Automatic Weapons) = 60 DD
Missile Battery (Advanced Rocketry) = 70 DD
Railgun Battery (Railgun) = 80 DD
Laser Battery (Fusion) = 90 DD
Anti-Matter Battery (Weaponized Anti-Matter) = 95 DD

 

[Thunderbrd]

1
Palisades = 15 DD
Earth Walls = 20 DD
Walls = 25 DD
High Walls = 30 DD
Moat = 30 DD
Castle = 40 DD
2tar Fort = 50 DD
Barricades = 60 DD
Barbed Wire Fence = 70 DD
Cement Barrier = 80 DD
Arcology Shielding = 90 DD
Advanced Shielding = 95 DD

I was going to be in complete agreement but I'm starting to really like Hydro's suggestions below on that.

2

Defenses of all above should be doubled. Not sure about others.

I can agree with that assertion. Makes sense to me.

3
Upgradable moat path
Dry moat - spiked moat - water moat

First 2 could require earth wall or pallisades
Third walls or high walls or castle

Agree though I like Hydro's restructuring suggestions on this too.

5

Burning oil require python work i think to add demage to rams on city bombardment.

This would be easier accomplished in the dll but as I've warned, could be tough on the odds assessment. If there was no randomness to it but a static, WILL reduce attacking units by X % of their strength at the beginning of the fight, then it would be more capable of being integrated into the odds structure. But then, what about stealth, distance attacks taking place before reaching the wall, yada yada. I'd simply ask for some time to think on this and will add this to the many considerations on combat restructures taking place.

@Nimek

1. I will have to think on that one. I am not sure if the moat should be included with the walls. Or if walls should even get it. They already are very powerful with the stuff they have. Perhaps DD should be on towers or something. Something like ...

Walls = Prevent Entering the City until Defenses are Lowered
Towers = Reduce Surround & Destroy bonuses
Moats = Provides Zone of Control
Traps = Provides Repel

Not sure why moats would provide Zone of Control now that I understand what zone of control IS. DD makes sense, sure, but less if we don't put the Dynamic Defense on the Walls and put it instead on the towers (which I'm liking btw... indicates the ability to survey the battle and more easily send forces where they need to be with some better forewarning thus being able to more effectively stage defenses against being surrounded.)

We have two sorts of traps, the type that basically indicates an automatic weapon fire at units adjacent to the city such as Bombard Towers and so on, and those that indicate actual traps located around the city in random locations such as pits. I'd put the Zone of Control on the first ones (pinning down opponents from being willing to move through their clear fire ranges) and the generic repel on the exterior traps (and still feel it'd be perfect for moats but maybe only for the particular unitcombats of the defenders.)

3. I disagree and think that each should be separate and do not replace the other. That way you can have multi-moats for even more defense. Maybe even have a difference between Castle/Fort and City moats. Thus having an inner and outer moat.

Yeah... cool!

EDIT: A proposal for Towers providing DD instead of walls.

Frontier Outpost (Carpentry) = 5 DD
Fortified Outpost (Masonry) = 10 DD
Watch Tower (Mathematics) = 15 DD
Guard Tower (Siege Warfare) = 20 DD
Tower Keep (Engineering) = 30 DD
Bombard Tower (Gunpowder) = 40 DD
Artillery Battery (Artillery) = 50 DD
Auto-Cannon Batter (Automatic Weapons) = 60 DD
Missile Battery (Advanced Rocketry) = 70 DD
Railgun Battery (Railgun) = 80 DD
Laser Battery (Fusion) = 90 DD
Anti-Matter Battery (Weaponized Anti-Matter) = 95 DD

I'd be quite happy with this

 

[Koshling]

Surely the way to do things like 'bonus agains rams' is to leverage the combat mod, and give me a sub unit class, then add a building tag for combat class bonus...?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Surely the way to do things like 'bonus agains rams' is to leverage the combat mod, and give me a sub unit class, then add a building tag for combat class bonus...?

hmm... that would be a good idea too. I've proposed suitable sub-combats for further defining siege weapons that would make this rather useful.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Added Dynamic Defense to all Tower buildings.

Now onto the defense values. Here are the current ones ...

Walls
Palisades = 10%
Earth Walls = 10%
Walls = 30%
High Walls = 50%
Barricades = 50%
Barbed Wire Fence = 50%
Cement Barrier = 50%
Arcology Shielding = 0% (This seems wrong)
Advanced Shielding = 30% (Also seems wrong)

Towers
Frontier Outpost = 5%
Fortified Outpost = 10%
Watch Tower = 10%
Guard Tower = 10%
Tower Keep = 15%
Bombard Tower = 30%
Artillery Battery = 40%
Auto-Cannon Batter = 40%
Missile Battery = 40%
Railgun Battery = 50%
Laser Battery = 60%
Anti-Matter Battery = 60%

Traps
Pit Traps = 5%
Mechanical Traps = 10%
Landmines = 20%
Booby Traps = 25%
Robotic Traps = 30%

Watch Posts
Lookoout Post = 5%
Sentery Post = 5%
Ton Watch = 5%
Town Patrol = 5%

Other
Palace Walls = 30%
Guardhouse = 5%
City Gate = 0% (This seems wrong)
City Gatehouse = 15%
Castle Gatehouse = 0% (This seems wrong)
Balista Turret = 0% (This seems wrong)
Cannon Turret = 0% (This seems wrong)
Moat = 0% (Seems Wrong)
Castle = 50%
Citadel = 50%
Star Fort = 75%
Anti-Missile Battery = 25%
Automated Defenses = 50%
Bunker = 0% (Should this Provide Defense?)
Bomb Shelter = 0% (Should this Provide Defense?)
Housing (Treehouses) = 5%
Housing (Cliff Dwelling) = 50%
Cave Dwelling = 50%
Neanderthal Caves = 50%

I am thinking we should not only increase but spread out the values more so each tower/wall upgrade increases defenses. Also should the watch posts increase? They are more about crime than defense. Let me know if I forgot anything.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok here are wonders ....

Wonders
Alamut = 25%
Alhambra = 30% in All Cities
Archimedes Workshop = 10% in All Cities
Blarney Castle = 50%
Chichen Itza = 25% in All Cities
Choquequiao = 100% and 10% in All Cities
Edinburgh's Castle = 100%
Hemidall's Sacuary = 100% and 10% in All Cities
Hemiji Samurai Castle = 0% (Seems like this should have some sort of local defense)
Kraw des Chevaliers = 75%
Labyrinth of Kronoss = 50%
Machu Picchu = 100%
Mastumoto Castle = 50%
Nanite Defuser = 50% in All Cities
Pri-e Naraki = 25% in All Cities
Seti Pir = 15% in All Cities
The Erchtheum = 100%
The Great Wall = (Seems like this should have some sort of national defense)
Wudang Mountain = 10% in All Cities

 

[Taxman66]

Maybe walls and other city defense buildings should have a set minimum defense value that can't be bombarded or reduced. For example: If Walls give a base +30%, they could be reduced by bombardment, but not below say (arbitrarily chosen 1/6th value) +5%. Make that cumulative with other defenses and it will add up to a decent, but not unreasonable, bonus defense.

Even base culture (or perhaps city size) defense could have a minimum value. Turning the walls/city into rubble is still better defensive terrain than empty plains.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Maybe walls and other city defense buildings should have a set minimum defense value that can't be bombarded or reduced. For example: If Walls give a base +30%, they could be reduced by bombardment, but not below say (arbitrarily chosen 1/6th value) +5%. Make that cumulative with other defenses and it will add up to a decent, but not unreasonable, bonus defense.

Even base culture (or perhaps city size) defense could have a minimum value. Turning the walls/city into rubble is still better defensive terrain than empty plains.

Actually... I like this idea. May be a little tricky to setup but not TOO bad. Another tag, MinimumDefense could define it... I could put that on an immediate todo list if others agree. Even a ruined wall can still offer quite a bit of protection to defenders.