Ideas and Development--Story NES

[das]

I have my althist to finish. You write it!

 

[Insane_Panda]

NK, I demand that you change your avatar!

 

[North King]

I had this earlier, even though I changed it to the star for a while. So, no.

 

[Swissempire]

I'll write it

NK strikes me as good for the Pre-History, then multiple for the ancient-medeviel, then Das for the 1500's onward

 

[North King]

Why is it that everyone thinks I'm only good for the ancient times?

I guess I have to open an industrial NES sometime.

 

[das]

I still think that we shouldn't divide it up - we should all work together on the history in entirety, and then you can add all the details that you want.

Okay, first thing is that we need to determine the first cradles of civilization. One thing - it certainly shouldn't be the Island, as the more succesful civilizations are often the ones that come later. There probably will be a civilization on the Homeland (in that eastern valley region with rivers, I could imagine it being fairly Sinoid), and several on the Mainland (in the southestern parts of it, I suppoose). The Mainland civilizations would later undergo dark ages, during which some of them will move eastwards and settle down along the Great Gulf. There would rise several coastal empires that will wage wars (I think it will be most similar to the Punic ones, but on a greater scale) and found colonies. Eventually, one such colony on the island would appear; after the fall of its home empire, it would mingle with the locals and temporarily isolate itself from the world, until being awakened by an initially-succesful invasion. The invaders were eventually defeated, but not before greatly damaging and upsetting the island's social system. Social enthropy and civil wars ensued, but finally, a very militant republic (rather like Veritas without the religious fanaticism, or like Rome at times) was established and begun warring with everybody else. The decadent empires of the Gulf fell one by one during what was known as the Gulf Wars. This was the birth of the First Republic; later on, it would collapse, but then it would be led to true greatness under the First Emperor, who would not only regain most of its old territories in the Gulf, but will also, using the modern ships now designed, spread the Empire across the waves. His successors would not always be succesful, sometimes ground would be lost and armies eliminated, and the coalitions that begun to appear would at times check the Empire, and in one case even would come close to destroying it altogether. But in the end, Empire's superior military organization and civilian administration, combined with cunning diplomacy, would prevail. The Empire would stretch out far, would crush entire lesser empires and defeat rebels, but problematically these little wars would grow more and more expensive over time, gradually sapping the Empire's resources as it had to wage wars all over the world simultaneously. And at its heart, on the Island, its rulers grew ever more senile or bickering, social strife intensified, a general crisis of confidence and morals emerged, corruption penetrated all layers of the society and an economical crisis was quickly coming up. While the surviving lesser powers that had to kowtow to the Empire for decades now since the defeat of the Last Coalition were beginning to raise their heads...

Yes, the above is some random rambling, but maybe something good can be made out of it. Btw, what plans do we have for technology? I'd say that it is unlikely to be too OTLish; the Gulf civilizations for one thing are assured to have superior naval technology (and superior engineering to defend from the mountain barbarians).

 

[North King]

In ancient times, the number of gaps between the various continents water-wise will mean they will, indeed, have to develop superior naval technology, and land technology will conversely fail to be quite as developed as OTL ancient times. Engineering and such domestic things--well, the civilizaionts develop in a fairly nice area; no real need to transport water long, long distances, and roads are fairly useless, the only avenue I'd say architecture would be truly developed is in monumental buildings. Given the naval nature of things and the lack of large challenges on land that can burn down many cities at once, we could actually see a "wonder culture," where cities compete to get the biggest and best new wonder.

In classical to medieval times, as the kingdoms solidify and coalesce on the mainland, land technology will try to catch up, but at the same time, population pressures could drive the steppe nomads from the west into the Peninsulas, greatly hindering economic efforts. They will have to face both scattered raids from the barbarians, and large scale invasions, thus feudalism is plenty likely to develop there, just like it did in ours, and feudalisms tend to disrupt growth...

But at the same time, the Home Island will be free from nomad invasion, and their lack of a need to focus on a land military means they can develop a massive fleet, and a monopoly on almost all trade in that part of the world; thus in the medieval period the seeds for The Empire are developed.

Meanwhile, in the north, the medieval age will be more the dark age, as the various river valleys, lakes, and forests are divided between petty kings, fighting for control to unify the whole--on occasion, a unified dynasty arising, but not sustaining themselves--it is pretty much out of the running for world power.

Other continents have begun to rise into their own ancient ages by the time that the Empire begins the great age of sail, but their bronze and iron weaponry cannot stand up to the cold steel of The Empire, which comes off of their ships seemingly from nowhere--trading posts are secured, and from them, the bases for an inter-continental empire are born. Other nations of the Mainland obviously join in the colonial race, but the Empire is, by virtue of its strategically positioned island, always in the lead--far more so than England of our world.

As gunpowder weapons rise, the steppe empires become less of a challenge, and nation-states are beginning to rise, but by this time, the Empire sees fit to actually invade the nations on the Mainland itself, and since they are still in their formulative stage, economically woefully underpowered, and surrounded by willing allies of the Empire, one by one they are subjugated.

As the industrial age is entered, the denizens of the Empire have formed a multi-national state, rather like the modern United States in that it manages to put aside nationalism in the name of patriotism, and they begin to sponsor wars on the mainland, and against the nations of the other continents that are left--a few on the periphery of the Eastern Continent, and the South Western one (the one directly south was easily taken over entirely by the Empire).

Finally, a unified nation-state in the northern Sinic-like areas forges a large coalition to face down the Empire, even managing to get other nations from other continents to join in--rather like France in NES 2 VI, and, like France, the Empire, through a few handy traitors and overwhelming numerical superiority, shatters the enemy in the First World War.

After the first world war, the world is entering into our 1930s-1950s technology.

Given the overwhelming superiority of the Empire, they won't try developing a nuclear weapon--no motivation, and other civilizations simply won't have the proper infrastructure. Thus, no nukes. But a plethora of tanks, armored vehicles, machine guns, artillery, chemical weapons--in short, things which can kill a lot of local miscreants in a short time, yet relatively in expensive.

Naval technology, obviously, is a monopoly of The Empire.

 

[Swissempire]

The Empire will have to have a large religion, but one that incorporates other ones into it. A large empire such as that will have to control the population through Religion(and thus morality), Early Patriotism, and opression of some part of minority in the soceity. I also see it as a coming together of cultures like the U.S.A, and a decline in patriotism, like the U.S.A. But government wise, it should be a JapaneseRomanBritish Hybrid.

 

[North King]

I disagree. It should be a British, pre-Augustan Roman, and American hybrid--not quite democratic--oligarchic with a figurehead on top.

The religion, if we really want to stack things in their favor, should be a Dharmic type of religion, which tends to be incredibly good at absorbing other religions into it as various minor "cults".

 

[Swissempire]

I think that for the Emperor to rule so long, that he would need both Temporal and Spiritual Authority and mandate. And I think an ancestral relgion would work best, as the biggest acspects from diff religions can be combined. That or a large Polytheism

 

[North King]

God-Emperor should come later, when the thing is coming to an end--divine empires tend to fail, because each mistake is seen as a contradiction of the authority of the "god". The Emperor can last plenty long, anyway--a nice 800+years for the Byzantine Empire, and, admittedly with intermittent breaks, 4000 or so years for the Chinese Empire.

 

[Swissempire]

God-Emperor should come later, when the thing is coming to an end--divine empires tend to fail, because each mistake is seen as a contradiction of the authority of the "god". The Emperor can last plenty long, anyway--a nice 800+years for the Byzantine Empire, and, admittedly with intermittent breaks, 4000 or so years for the Chinese Empire.

And the Chinese Emperors had...wait for it...the Mandate of Heaven. And the Byzantine Empire was seen as favored by Jesus and God.

 

[North King]

But not gods in and of themselves. The Romans pretty much fell when they turned to god-kings. The Incas fell because of their god-kings. The Aztecs, too.

God kings are not a healthy government.

 

[Swissempire]

And i thought this was not supposed to be a healthy government, but one that was stagnating...

 

[North King]

That's why the god emperor comes AFTER they've conquered 4/5ths or so of the world.

 

[Swissempire]

As a progression. Like they should start as an Oligarchy, then Republic, then from Republic to Empire....

 

[das]

In ancient times, the number of gaps between the various continents water-wise will mean they will, indeed, have to develop superior naval technology, and land technology will conversely fail to be quite as developed as OTL ancient times. Engineering and such domestic things--well, the civilizaionts develop in a fairly nice area; no real need to transport water long, long distances, and roads are fairly useless, the only avenue I'd say architecture would be truly developed is in monumental buildings. Given the naval nature of things and the lack of large challenges on land that can burn down many cities at once, we could actually see a "wonder culture," where cities compete to get the biggest and best new wonder.

Quite agreed, but there would be a need to defend from the barbarians (as the sea-based civilizations - in the Gulf, anyway - will be too busy waging their naval wars to launch any serious overland punitive expeditions). This world may see lots of "great walls".

In classical to medieval times, as the kingdoms solidify and coalesce on the mainland, land technology will try to catch up, but at the same time, population pressures could drive the steppe nomads from the west into the Peninsulas, greatly hindering economic efforts. They will have to face both scattered raids from the barbarians, and large scale invasions, thus feudalism is plenty likely to develop there, just like it did in ours, and feudalisms tend to disrupt growth...

I rather doubt that land technology will really catch up - most of the development in that field during the Middle Ages concerned cavalry and artillery, both of which are of little use for civilized powers. Also, how are such raids damaging to economy? Sea powers are likely to be of the more commercial mind, though I could imagine damage being caused to the agriculture.

The steppe nomads won't bring on any dark age in this world, I suspect. But from the north of the Gulf, pirates/raiders (Viking-like) might do just that. Certainly they would disrupt commerce greatly. Thankfully, the Home Island will indeed be shielded from them by its future enemies (btw, maybe this is the point at which it will attain independence - after sea barbarians disrupt communications with the home empire?)...

Meanwhile, in the north, the medieval age will be more the dark age, as the various river valleys, lakes, and forests are divided between petty kings, fighting for control to unify the whole--on occasion, a unified dynasty arising, but not sustaining themselves--it is pretty much out of the running for world power.

Rather unlikely, I don't imagine any sort of large empires arising there. Pirate/raider tribes, however, will quite easily fit there and terrorize much of the Gulf.

Other nations of the Mainland

Of particular interest is the western region; the Gulf will mostly be dominated by the Empire even in the earlier parts of modern history, but in the west a different civilization will arise, possibly even building a large empire that will become one of the leaders of the Last Coalition.

the Empire sees fit to actually invade the nations on the Mainland itself, and since they are still in their formulative stage, economically woefully underpowered, and surrounded by willing allies of the Empire, one by one they are subjugated.

As the industrial age is entered, the denizens of the Empire have formed a multi-national state, rather like the modern United States in that it manages to put aside nationalism in the name of patriotism, and they begin to sponsor wars on the mainland, and against the nations of the other continents that are left--a few on the periphery of the Eastern Continent, and the South Western one (the one directly south was easily taken over entirely by the Empire).

The Gulf it will quite easily take over, except perhaps the west and the far north (btw, in this world there might actually be some modern-day barbarians, especially in the far north; its unlikely that anyone will bother conquering them, and that might lead to some interesting developments, so lets leave them). But IMHO further west is unlikely to be conquered - its too large and far-flung, and doesn't seem awfully profitable.

The small Inner Ocean islands and the direct Southern Continent will be taken over quite easily; the southwest will probably see a drawn-out struggle in the jungles. Actually I think it is a more opportunate site for a China-like civilization in the center. Most civilizations in this world seem to be Mediterranean, Viking or Chinese, interestingly enough. Not sure where did I see such a combination before... Settlers?

The Eastern Continent, however, is likely to be a home of an Egyptian civilization, that is likely to become one of the Empire's first victims outside of the Mainland.

Given the overwhelming superiority of the Empire, they won't try developing a nuclear weapon--no motivation, and other civilizations simply won't have the proper infrastructure. Thus, no nukes. But a plethora of tanks, armored vehicles, machine guns, artillery, chemical weapons--in short, things which can kill a lot of local miscreants in a short time, yet relatively in expensive.

Some thoughts on modern technology:
1. No nukes indeed.
2. I doubt that there would be tanks - the Empire's quest for global supremacy is unlikely to bog down in trench warfare, the world just doesn't fit for it, and so there will be no need for tanks.
3. Artillery is also rather slow and takes up much space. The best artillery in this world will be naval and coastal, ofcourse.
4. Aircraft carriers, however, would be a godsend for the Empire. These, along with aviation, would advance ahead of time. I could imagine the Empire developing a doctrine not unlike the modern American one, with aeronaval task forces and special forces being employed as a quick, effective and intimidating method of putting down rebellions and upstart weaker rulers.

The Empire will have to have a large religion

Actually, no. Religiously I think it will be best off as Rome - religion, at first anyway, would not be too important, there wouldn't be any real fanaticism, and foreign religious elements will be integrated.

Later on, something like the Cult of Mithras (with some elements of Poseideon, ofcourse) will appear - it would really fit this Empire, much better than OTL Rome. The Emperor (how ever divine) would, much like in Japan, become ever more a figurehead, with the military elite dominating the government. The Cult of Mithras is perfect for a military junta, as it implies a Mason-like organization within the army, so the army becomes a state within a state. But ofcourse not all will like it; in fact it is best if by the time of the NES there is a growing anti-military movement, possibly divided into an atheist-secularist movement and a one united around some new religion.

 

[Kozmos]

What about corporations? How much influence do they or could wield?

 

[North King]

Quite agreed, but there would be a need to defend from the barbarians (as the sea-based civilizations - in the Gulf, anyway - will be too busy waging their naval wars to launch any serious overland punitive expeditions). This world may see lots of "great walls".

Or just lines of watchtowers. Much easier.

I rather doubt that land technology will really catch up - most of the development in that field during the Middle Ages concerned cavalry and artillery, both of which are of little use for civilized powers. Also, how are such raids damaging to economy? Sea powers are likely to be of the more commercial mind, though I could imagine damage being caused to the agriculture.

Land tech will have to catch up--there are plenty of competing powers on the mainland. Raids are... well, raiding. They carry off things.

The steppe nomads won't bring on any dark age in this world, I suspect. But from the north of the Gulf, pirates/raiders (Viking-like) might do just that. Certainly they would disrupt commerce greatly. Thankfully, the Home Island will indeed be shielded from them by its future enemies (btw, maybe this is the point at which it will attain independence - after sea barbarians disrupt communications with the home empire?)...

I'd imagine a much earlier date of independence, but whatever.

Rather unlikely, I don't imagine any sort of large empires arising there. Pirate/raider tribes, however, will quite easily fit there and terrorize much of the Gulf.

The river valley in the northeast? It's practically designed for a large empire. No, it won't stay united for all, or even most of its history, but when it does...

Of particular interest is the western region; the Gulf will mostly be dominated by the Empire even in the earlier parts of modern history, but in the west a different civilization will arise, possibly even building a large empire that will become one of the leaders of the Last Coalition.

Indeedly.

The Gulf it will quite easily take over, except perhaps the west and the far north (btw, in this world there might actually be some modern-day barbarians, especially in the far north; its unlikely that anyone will bother conquering them, and that might lead to some interesting developments, so lets leave them). But IMHO further west is unlikely to be conquered - its too large and far-flung, and doesn't seem awfully profitable.

The West is the last hope of civilization...

But the far north will at least be partially colonized. Character reasons. (I seem to use that smilie a lot).

The small Inner Ocean islands and the direct Southern Continent will be taken over quite easily; the southwest will probably see a drawn-out struggle in the jungles. Actually I think it is a more opportunate site for a China-like civilization in the center. Most civilizations in this world seem to be Mediterranean, Viking or Chinese, interestingly enough. Not sure where did I see such a combination before... Settlers?

You may be right, depending on wether or not diseases wipe out the jungle natives--it could turn out like the Amazon (where a thriving civilization collapsed due to disease), or like the Congo (where a thriving civilization... existed).

I don't see the center continent, in its utter isolation, being anything other than a conquest.

The Eastern Continent, however, is likely to be a home of an Egyptian civilization, that is likely to become one of the Empire's first victims outside of the Mainland.

Some thoughts on modern technology:
1. No nukes indeed.
2. I doubt that there would be tanks - the Empire's quest for global supremacy is unlikely to bog down in trench warfare, the world just doesn't fit for it, and so there will be no need for tanks.
3. Artillery is also rather slow and takes up much space. The best artillery in this world will be naval and coastal, ofcourse.
4. Aircraft carriers, however, would be a godsend for the Empire. These, along with aviation, would advance ahead of time. I could imagine the Empire developing a doctrine not unlike the modern American one, with aeronaval task forces and special forces being employed as a quick, effective and intimidating method of putting down rebellions and upstart weaker rulers.

2. I disagree. World War one is big enough, and in the right time period, to require tanks. It's not a hard concept.
3. Of course... but I could see a future for rail transported artillery.
4. Yep.

Actually, no. Religiously I think it will be best off as Rome - religion, at first anyway, would not be too important, there wouldn't be any real fanaticism, and foreign religious elements will be integrated.

Later on, something like the Cult of Mithras (with some elements of Poseideon, ofcourse) will appear - it would really fit this Empire, much better than OTL Rome. The Emperor (how ever divine) would, much like in Japan, become ever more a figurehead, with the military elite dominating the government. The Cult of Mithras is perfect for a military junta, as it implies a Mason-like organization within the army, so the army becomes a state within a state. But ofcourse not all will like it; in fact it is best if by the time of the NES there is a growing anti-military movement, possibly divided into an atheist-secularist movement and a one united around some new religion.

I prefer the dharmic religions, because of the aformentioned assimilatory ability.



Cleric: Probably less so than in our world, due to the sheer power of the government.

 

[Kozmos]

Cleric: Probably less so than in our world, due to the sheer power of the government.

Well YARRR we gotta change that! Hey mebbe I could play a group of pirates. Damn there are so many characters I could write about. Cant decide which one to focus on tho. >_<