Ideas for a Fascism small wonder?

[Ivan the Kulak]

+1 on your comments, Oz, though I can see where timerover51 might get the idea that someone would want to "glorify" Fascism with a wonder. My intent is not that, but instead to try to more accurately reflect this government type via a new improvement. It is peculiar to me, though, that only Communism got a small wonder for itself and nothing else, especially since it is already a low corruption government type. I think Feudalism at least should have gotten a small wonder as well that would put out special knights, and I plan on having for myself a more modern form of democracy later with its own financial wonder.

wolf brother, you are right about the "improvement in every city" checkbox of course. Doh! I was mulling over possible options without reviewing them in the editor again.

Fascism will not need its war weariness reduced, as it has none.

As far as naming, I think naming the Stormtrooper instead to "Fascist", same as the unit in CTP would make things a bit more generic, also maybe the small wonder could be named "The Great Party Hall" or just "The Grand Hall" or something close to that.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Hmm, I have noticed the Storm Trooper I have downloaded has what appears to be a submachinegun attack, this might come a bit early in the game, as it is not far after riflemen and way before Infantry if you follow the tech tree here right away. I wonder if anyone has seen a different unit like this with a rifle attack?

timerover, you really need to mellow out. Remember, this is only a game. How many "people" have you killed while taking over enemy cities in for your democracy so they can live comfortably under your benevolent rule? How many enemy workers have you grabbed and sent to slave for you in rags?
How many military units have you sent to their deaths? I take it you are not happy with the current state of political affairs. Well, many aren't. Hmm, I wonder if Obama built the Secret Police HQ, would this mean that less of our stimulus money would end up in the pockets of AIG executives?

 

[Ozymandias]

Hmm, I have noticed the Storm Trooper I have downloaded has what appears to be a submachinegun attack, this might come a bit early in the game, as it is not far after riflemen and way before Infantry if you follow the tech tree here right away. I wonder if anyone has seen a different unit like this with a rifle attack?

Try GIDustin's "German Wehrmacht" unit ... ?

 

[bigdog5994]

the German infantry from PTW might work

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=69446&highlight=PTW+WWII+units

Edit: and i know you didnt want a SMG attack but these are just really pretty
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=174507&highlight=MoscaTnT

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

In the Final Fantasy mod, the three best governments for each alignment (good, neutral and evil) have their own SW....

For Imperialism (think Corporate Fascism for the evil factions), they get the Shinra Building, which reduces corruption (ala FP) and produces Turks (HN spy types) every 5 turns.... Democracy (good factions) has the "Constitutional Government" SW that reduces corruption and produces a "Citizen Militia" unit every 5 turns (Basically a High Def, low attack, no maintainence cost unit to represent trained armed citizens defending their country), and the Constitutional Moncarchy government available to Neutral factions allows a "Igros Castle" (famous summer palace in one of the games) that produces a "Royal Guard" unit (balanced attack and def) every 5 turns and reduces corruption.. I've thought of doing similar with other mods/scenarios that allow one to change governments.

Edit: I also add that while I despise Nazis and Fascism in general, deliberately censoring history, IMO, does more harm than good... If we were to remove EVERYTHING that was tied in with unpleasant bits of history, then we'd have to remove the Great Wall (often sarcastically called the "longest cemetery in the world" for good reason), the Communist Secret Police HQ, the Forbidden Palace, the Great Pyramids, Sun Tzu's Art of War, the fragging MANHATTAN PROJECT, the Internet, the Colosseum city improvment, the Panzer UU, the Keshik UU (after all, the Mongols under Ghengis Khan killed more people than Hitler and Stalin COMBINED), Ghengis Khan (Temujin) himself should be removed for that matter, as well as Queen Isabella and the Spanish Conquistador UU, Mao Zedong, the Russian Cossack UU (due to the Khmelnytsky Uprising), Jaguar Warriors, the Communism Government and Fascism itself....

After all, these things represent great evils that were, in many cases, almost as bad as the Nazis (even if not on the same scale) and should be removed so we can have a nice, fluffy butterfly and bunny game without any way to represent any of the unpleasant, nasty and cruel things that happened in history, because, after all, the best way to avoid repeating history is to completely forget it, right?

 

[georgestow]

A little off-topic, but why remove the internet for CivIII-Fluffy?

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Oz, that German Wehrmacht unit looks like it's worth a try. Do you have a link to the unit thread? When I ran a google search, the only thing that comes up is this thread. tried a search of the units download section by Ind/Mod era under both author/unit name - no joy. Searching the Unit forum in general brings up some different units, but not that one. MoscaTnT's unit is the one I have now. It IS very pretty and fits in well as a generic unit - but it's got that submachinegun.

Maybe a corruption reducing small wonder is the way to go, hard to think of another really useful attribute. Hikaro, those small wonders you posted are good concepts, and make sense. Currently, I have the secret police HQ generating a "partisan" (by utahjazz, I think) every 5 turns, which is a rifleman type unit good for Ind. era defense, I was thinking of changing that to a "Shock Worker", double the work rate of normal workers, model would be the slave worker, cannot be joined to cities. This would represent the political prisoners taken and sent to work camps, especially under Stalin, and a Communist governent could then have more workers to join to captured cities to get that cultural majority quicker. Again this is "evil", but I agree with your comments regarding the modelling of such things in the game, And the civ series is not a "fluffy bunny game" for 6 year olds. Does everyone remember all the screaming that went on when what's-his-name made the Fascist Patch for civ2? LOL.

 

[wolf_brother]

A little off-topic, but why remove the internet for CivIII-Fluffy?

What has been seen can't be unseen

 

[timerover51]

Edit: I also add that while I despise Nazis and Fascism in general, deliberately censoring history, IMO, does more harm than good... If we were to remove EVERYTHING that was tied in with unpleasant bits of history, then we'd have to remove the Great Wall (often sarcastically called the "longest cemetery in the world" for good reason), the Communist Secret Police HQ, the Forbidden Palace, the Great Pyramids, Sun Tzu's Art of War, the fragging MANHATTAN PROJECT, the Internet, the Colosseum city improvment, the Panzer UU, the Keshik UU (after all, the Mongols under Ghengis Khan killed more people than Hitler and Stalin COMBINED), Ghengis Khan (Temujin) himself should be removed for that matter, as well as Queen Isabella and the Spanish Conquistador UU, Mao Zedong, the Russian Cossack UU (due to the Khmelnytsky Uprising), Jaguar Warriors, the Communism Government and Fascism itself....

After all, these things represent great evils that were, in many cases, almost as bad as the Nazis (even if not on the same scale) and should be removed so we can have a nice, fluffy butterfly and bunny game without any way to represent any of the unpleasant, nasty and cruel things that happened in history, because, after all, the best way to avoid repeating history is to completely forget it, right?

I am a military historian, looking at getting a doctorate in military history. I am not recommending censoring history, that is already being done quiet well in the US school system. I am objecting to an individual seeking to promote a hideous form of government, and the willingness of members of the forum to help him. You __________ see a request for a Wonder, I see the death camps and crematoriums, mustard agent sprayed on Ethiopians, the Rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March, prisoners being beheaded and eaten and burned alive. I have no interest in being politically correct, and have decided that I no longer agree with Voltaire's statement:
"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." My view now is that if I really disagree with what you say, I may just ram your teeth down your throat.

 

[Ozymandias]

Oz, that German Wehrmacht unit looks like it's worth a try. Do you have a link to the unit thread?

Link? We don't need no stinkin' link (please tell me you catch the movie reference ) - this is an OLD puppy (2002). I'll put it here for now and add it to the unit db if there's any interest.

Best,

Oz

 

[Plotinus]

Moderator Action: timerover51, I appreciate your point, but please understand that discussing what sort of Wonder would be appropriate for the Fascist government in the game to build is not the same thing as "seeking to promote" it - any more than (say) discussing what sort of units would be appropriate for a medieval crusades scenario is the same thing as promoting the crusades. The question is about how fascists have or would seek to glorify themselves, not about how we would seek to glorify them!

I'll ignore the rather violent tinge of your last post but ask you, please, not to repeat it.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Oz, thanks for the file, I will take a look at this unit and see if it is good. Maybe it got lost in the hacking incident awhile back. I'll try that PTW rifleman too.

timerover51, for your information I abhor both Fascism and Communism. Both forms of government are, IMO, extremely evil and if left alone will self destruct over time (witness the fall of the USSR). However, Voltaire's statement regarding free speech is timeless and constitutes one of the fundamental values of our own system of government. Without it, we ourselves might march down the path towards fascism.

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

A little off-topic, but why remove the internet for CivIII-Fluffy?

I take it you have never accidentally stumbled across 4-chan?

That, and to sum up what outdoor humorist Patrick McManus wrote in his book Kerplunk!:

It used to be that all the different kinds of wackos sat out in their little isolated cabins or apartments somewhere. Each of his particular ilk. Now a wacko can get on the Internet and find the other nine wackos in the world who are just like him. Then they form a club and try to figure out some way to blow up something.

...Which is entirely too true.

@Timerover: My great-grandfather is Jewish, I have a Jewish great-uncle and cousins, and my great-uncle's current lady-friend (she's a widow and he's a widower, and they were both mutual friends for a long time) is a Holocaust survivor...

TRUST me, I doubt you could meet anyone MORE opposed to the Third Reich and what it stood for....

....However, that is NOT what this thread is about! Saying that ALL fascist governments were anti-semitic is like saying that all Wehrmacht soldiers actively participated in the butchery carried out in the death camps, which is patently false... As a matter of fact, one of the SAFEST places for Jews in Axis-held territory was Fascist Italy!

Fascism != racism.... Like Plot said, this thread is about what kind of government specific wonders/improvements Fascist governments should have in a historical simulation, just like discussing Wehrmacht troops for a WWII scenario doesn't mean we support the Nazi regime, nor does debating 13th century Mongolian unit lines mean we support the mass-slaughter unleashed by the Mongol Hordes (which is STILL listed as the worst genocide in HISTORY! Don't believe me? just look it up in the Guinness Book of World Records.... Believe it or not, Hitler doesn't even make the #2 slot: STALIN does, and he was on OUR side!!!), etc.

And I completely agree with Ivan (even though that quote was NOT actually said by Voltaire, but misatributed to him by one of his biographers): The purpose of the 1^st Amendment was NOT to protect the popular opinions and ideas, but the UN-popular ones....

....After all, a lynch mob COULD be considered the most pure form of democracy there is.

 

[Plotinus]

Moderator Action: Please try to keep it vaguely on-topic, people.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Moderator Action: Please try to keep it vaguely on-topic, people.

+1 on this suggestion.

Ok, I realized I already have the German PTW extra rifleman, since I have Civ3: Complete, but it appears there is no pedia or units32 icons anywhere for it. This is strange, since there ARE some pedia icons for some stuff (for example, I put in the German Heavy MG as a generic WWI era offensive unit to match up with Infantry and there are icons for that buried in there), but others are totally missing. Were icons done by the civ3 art team ever posted up somewhere for these extras?

What I am thinking of for the small wonder is as follows: People's Great Hall as the building, cost same as secret police HQ. Produces a fascist every 5 turns, and generates 1 culture per turn. Does reduce corruption, AND in addition allows building of larger Armies, requires a victorious army to build. Anyone see a problem with these flags? The one question I have is this: Since there is already a building that allows larger armies (Pentagon) will this double up and allow the insertion of an additional unit into the army beyond the normal allowance? I really don't want this to happen. Armies are quite different from stock in my mod, the Mil. Academy GENERATES armies, you are not allowed to construct them, and shield cost is low so the AI won't disband them. Default units in an Army is only 2, increases to 3 with the Pentagon, which is now available with the tech Mechanized Warfare.
I want the additional Army size to reflect on the warmongering nature of Fascism, but I don't want that advantage to continue through the Modern era.

 

[Deth McBones]

I'm pretty sure the units32 are in the normal Conquests unit32, below the Vanilla and above the Conquests units. As for the PediaIcons, they are either in the PTW/Extras/WWII/Art/Civilopedia/Icons/Units, or in the actual PTW/Art/Civilopedia/Icons/Units. I'm not sure, though, as I'm doing this from memory.

 

[Virote_Considon]

They don't have pediaicons.

 

[General 666]

They don't have pediaicons.

Björn has done some ! They are on GIDustin :

http://www.civ3files.com/cgi-bin/Civ3Files.cgi?Page=CivFiles&Contributor=100032

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

Yep, no pedia icons in those folders. Björn's are good icons, but they don't have that original civ3 art feel to them. Maybe I will stick with MoscaTnT's unit, I can always rationalize that a Fascist gov. would be ahead of the curve on developing weapons, and has built an early submachinegun for their elite forces.

On reflection, maybe having the reduced corruption and the extra army ability is a bit too powerful for the small wonder if a human player were to switch to Fascism, though what I am thinking of is the AI's relative inability to use armies effectively. Maybe if I left out corruption reduction, and just had the extra army ability along with more culture per turn and a slight increase in production for the city... hmm what do you guys think of that idea? I still want to know about the extra wonder/additional unit in the army flag, though.

 

[wolf_brother]

On reflection, maybe having the reduced corruption and the extra army ability is a bit too powerful for the small wonder if a human player were to switch to Fascism, though what I am thinking of is the AI's relative inability to use armies effectively.

As far as armies go, I'd change them to be 1 slot and have +3 HP, rename them "Division" or "Corps" and have them auto-produced by a small wonder, such as the military academy, every twenty-turns or so. Its not perfect, but that AI will use such a system.