Ideas for The Perfect 4X Historical Game

[8housesofelixir]

The only thing I would add at this time is that I think the Categories and any adjacency bonuses should be linked to the Buildings, not the Districts.

Interestingly, Humankind has Buildings works in this way; they can provide and increase the proximity bonuses of certain Quarters. Imagine a Quarter triangle similar to Farm triangle of Civ VI, triggered by Buildings instead of Civics.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Interestingly, Humankind has Buildings works in this way; they can provide and increase the proximity bonuses of certain Quarters. Imagine a Quarter triangle similar to Farm triangle of Civ VI, triggered by Buildings instead of Civics.

This also feeds into my several Posts in several different Threads about revising the District system in 4X and especially Civ VII so that adjacencies and bonuses are tied to Buildings rather than the Districts themselves. This would allow Districts to be 'themed' based on what building you put in them, not on an arbitrary association with the surrounding terrain. This would also more Inter-District theming, like a District with a huge modern Factory in it (taking up, say, 2 - 3 Building slots) positioned next to a coastal District with a Container Port (another 2 - 3 Building slots, because they are Huge, but it also provides a 'built -in' railroad freight yard) for lots of extra Trade income and extending the benefits from Manufactured Amenities to your cities a long way away.

 

[8housesofelixir]

This would allow Districts to be 'themed' based on what building you put in them, not on an arbitrary association with the surrounding terrain.

I like this idea. It will at least solve my personal problem of "why is Campus not providing culture, it's not like universities don't teach Humanities".

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I like this idea. It will at least solve my personal problem of "why is Campus not providing culture, it's not like universities don't teach Humanities".

Or Why is Oxford a major university when there are no mountains nearby IRL?

A case can be made historically that the first Universities, at least in Christian Europe, were in fact largely Cultural and Religious institutions, since their primary subject matter was the classical rhetorical cirriculum ("liberal arts" in modern terms) and Religious Studies. Adding a Science enhancing component should really come from a Civic/Social Policy card sort of mechanism which starts 'converting' the Universities into a more 'scientific' methodology - although Astrology and Alchemy were still parts of many University studies!

 

[Ryansinbela]

I want to hear what LordLakely thinks

 

[Lord Lakely]

His Lordship is currently not in a particularly Civ-y mood, but I'll come back at you once I've finished my current Dragon Age run.... in about a month or so

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

His Lordship is currently not in a particularly Civ-y mood, but I'll come back at you once I've finished my current Dragon Age run.... in about a month or so

lol. Anyways, what about Plagues? Antsou has some good ideas about implementing Plagues into Civ 6.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Okay see ya later my Lord

 

[8housesofelixir]

Or Why is Oxford a major university when there are no mountains nearby IRL?

IMHO the only place that can provide a plain, universal adjacency bonus should be City Center. In the pre-modern society, most of the "output", whether Science, Culture, Faith, or Gold, were from the population centers.

A case can be made historically that the first Universities, at least in Christian Europe, were in fact largely Cultural and Religious institutions, since their primary subject matter was the classical rhetorical cirriculum ("liberal arts" in modern terms) and Religious Studies. Adding a Science enhancing component should really come from a Civic/Social Policy card sort of mechanism which starts 'converting' the Universities into a more 'scientific' methodology - although Astrology and Alchemy were still parts of many University studies!

Personally I would also suggest that, if a historical 4x game only has 1 major yield for tech progression - for example, the "Science" in Civ V and the "Science" in Endless & Humankind - don't call it "Science". Call it "Knowledge".

Medieval European Universities, Muslim Madrasas, and Confucian Academies did not yield "Science" during their heyday - these institutions taught rhetorical, religious, philosophical, and political matters - but they undoubtedly helped to spread "Knowledges".

 

[Ryansinbela]

I think Lakely suggested that, so I use it in my idea
Some other changes were Food to Growth, Gold to Wealth, Faith to Ethics, and Favor to Prestige (Should I change?)

 

[8housesofelixir]

Some other changes were Food to Growth, Gold to Wealth, Faith to Ethics, and Favor to Prestige (Should I change?)

I would say that's too much. There is not really a "non-Food" Growth in the 4x games, and I don't think people will confuse Gold to other things, unlike Science. Faith and Ethics are totally different ideas/concepts, the same goes for Favor and Prestige as well. My suggestion of "Science to Knowledge" is to avoid confusion, instead of (unnecessary) abstraction.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I would say that's too much. There is not really a "non-Food" Growth in the 4x games, and I don't think people will confuse Gold to other things, unlike Science. Faith and Ethics are totally different ideas/concepts, the same goes for Favor and Prestige as well. My suggestion of "Science to Knowledge" is to avoid confusion, instead of (unnecessary) abstraction.

I think there could be a place for a 'non-Food' Growth mechanic in 4X Historical games, though. Admittedly, Food was primary in early cities, and there is strong evidence that many Neolithic and Bronze/Chacolithic Era cities were abandoned when climate/terrain changes cut into the food supply - people reverted back to hunter-gatherer or pastoral lifestyles and took off. Later, that simply wasn't an option.
More importantly, population growth in cities for most of history was not due to having enough food to sustain birth rates: birth rates and child survival rates in cities were generally abysmal, because the crowded urban conditions from the beginning were near-perfect conditions for plague and disease in general. All the cities until the sanitation discoveries of the Industrial Era were dependent on migration from the country to maintain and increase their population.
That means perhaps Food would be simply a limitation of growth - not enough food, no growth at all - but actual increase would come from factors that Attract migrants. Those would be primarily two things: better lifestyle in jobs that produce more 'income' however that is measured, and better access to Good Things ranging from Entertainment, Religion, Power, Prestige, Exotic Goods/Markets, etc. The actual in-game mechanic could be the number of Job-Producing Buildings in the city (Markets, Workshops, Factories, Harbor Facilities, etc) and the number of Good Thing Producing Buildings (Temple, Palace, Arena, Amphitheater, etc) the combined total giving a number of 'jobs' to be filled, the higher the more 'pull' on country folk to move in.

This would also allow the simulation of some of the massive growth seen episodically throughout history, as, for instance Colonial Cities frequently exploded when they appeared to offer high paying or at least high opportunity jobs not available 'back home' or Gold Rushes and Silver Strikes brought people in a rush - like in California/San Francisco in 1849, or the Joachimthal silver strike of the late Middle Ages.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I think there could be a place for a 'non-Food' Growth mechanic in 4X Historical games, though. Admittedly, Food was primary in early cities, and there is strong evidence that many Neolithic and Bronze/Chacolithic Era cities were abandoned when climate/terrain changes cut into the food supply - people reverted back to hunter-gatherer or pastoral lifestyles and took off. Later, that simply wasn't an option.
More importantly, population growth in cities for most of history was not due to having enough food to sustain birth rates: birth rates and child survival rates in cities were generally abysmal, because the crowded urban conditions from the beginning were near-perfect conditions for plague and disease in general. All the cities until the sanitation discoveries of the Industrial Era were dependent on migration from the country to maintain and increase their population.
This would also allow the simulation of some of the massive growth seen episodically throughout history, as, for instance Colonial Cities frequently exploded when they appeared to offer high paying or at least high opportunity jobs not available 'back home' or Gold Rushes and Silver Strikes brought people in a rush - like in California/San Francisco in 1849, or the Joachimthal silver strike of the late Middle Ages.

I think older Civ's "Health" and recent Civ's "Housing" are two good mechanics on this aspect - IRL before Industrial Era, there is always some "cap" on population growth other than foods (sanitation, water, housing, etc).

Coming from Civ series, Humankind's "can plop decent cities far from a freshwater source" mechanism sometimes bugs me.

(On the other hand, HMK does have a stronger penalty on overpopulation, too much people can cause huge Stability drain.)

 

[Ryansinbela]

Lakely renamed Gold to Wealth because not all Civs use gold currency and Gold would be better as a resource

What names do you suggest

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Lakely renamed Gold to Wealth because not all Civs use gold currency and Gold would be better as a resource

What names do you suggest

Gold should be a Resource in the game, since Gold, Silver, Copper and Lead were the first metals exploited, all in the Eneolithic/Chalcolithic periods. On the other hand, while 'Gold' has been the basis for a lot of coinage, Silver coins were the ones that circulated in bulk, from Classical times (Tetradrachma, Solidus) to more recent (Joachimthaler, Pound Sterling). There are several Mods that add Gold as a resource without changing anything else, and I've never had any confusion playing games with any of the Mods enabled, which I have done regularly for almost a year now.

'Wealth' is like Currency or Coinage: its meaning covers either too much or too little for the way the game wants to use it. The game uses 'Gold' to refer to liquidity - wealth which can be transferred easily in a transaction, as in buying a Unit quickly. Wealth to economists, however, means Assets both liquid and not, and it covers everything from Capital Investment like the Production that went into building Districts and Building and Improvements to the 'Gold' that represents Cash On Hand.

 

[Ryansinbela]

I have changed it to liquidity

 

[8housesofelixir]

I have changed it to liquidity

I don't think average players can tell what "liquidity" even means, they probably need a dictionary. But they won't have that problem with "gold" or even "money".

To be honest, the priority of naming an in-game idea should be clearness/clarity, instead of pure accuracy. Developers didn't change "Food" to "Consumables that can provide nutritional support and help population growth" for obvious reasons.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I don't think average players can tell what "liquidity" even means by a glance. But they won't have that problem with "gold".

To be honest, the priority of naming an in-game idea should be clearness/clarity, instead of pure accuracy.

Agreed. Unless we intend to produce a game playable only by Economists, which might qualify as a Crime Against Humanity, and would certainly produce a set of warped Game Designers . . .

On the other hand, Gold In Hand is pretty much the most visible of 'liquid assets' even if the Resource that should have as great or greater impact on the discovery of Coinage and its massive increase in Trade volume and income should be silver. We could always capitalize the Gold mechanism and keep the resources gold and silver in lower case.

 

[Ryansinbela]

I don't think average players can tell what "liquidity" even means, they probably need a dictionary. But they won't have that problem with "gold" or even "money".

To be honest, the priority of naming an in-game idea should be clearness/clarity, instead of pure accuracy. Developers didn't change "Food" to "Consumables that can provide nutritional support and help population growth" for obvious reasons.

That makes more sense

 

[Ryansinbela]

I am trying to work on a civ list for my project and I was wondering how somethings would work in my idea
Are Indians, Chinese and Arabs split or combined
How colonial civs work
and More on that suggested evolution mechanic