Ideas for The Perfect 4X Historical Game

. . . having issues formatting Lakely’s Resources and can you explain that timeline list you mentioned with the 50 Neolithic cultures @Boris Gudenuf. Just curious

Some time ago I started putting together a Time Line of potential historical Events, people, cultures, technological advances, etc for Civ-type games. It's up to 170 pages now and nowhere near finished. In addition, when Humankind announced some time ago that they were including a Neolithic Pre-Era in their game, I put together a list of potential Neolithic Civs/Cultures and archeological sites world wide. Just a simple list with no inclusive data, that includes now over 63 'civs' or sites dating to before 4000 BCE and another 20 or so that are neolitic/pre-metal-working but post-4000 BCE. That list now includes some specific 'cities' that are neolithic and Neolithic Technological evidence such as monumental stone or earth structures, sea-crossings, etc.
 
Some time ago I started putting together a Time Line of potential historical Events, people, cultures, technological advances, etc for Civ-type games. It's up to 170 pages now and nowhere near finished. In addition, when Humankind announced some time ago that they were including a Neolithic Pre-Era in their game, I put together a list of potential Neolithic Civs/Cultures and archeological sites world wide. Just a simple list with no inclusive data, that includes now over 63 'civs' or sites dating to before 4000 BCE and another 20 or so that are neolitic/pre-metal-working but post-4000 BCE. That list now includes some specific 'cities' that are neolithic and Neolithic Technological evidence such as monumental stone or earth structures, sea-crossings, etc.
Do you possess a link

i would love to read (although realistically adding 170 pages of content is impossible
 
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Do you possess a link

i would love to read (although realistically adding 170 pages of content is impossible

Right now it's strictly a Work in Progress, so only a Word file on my computer, without links. If I ever get to the point where I feel it's complete enough to be useful (like, I fill in the 19th and 20th centuries, which I think are pretty bare right now except for military technology) I will try to figure out a way to make it available by link through here or elsewhere.
 
How many civs have you included at the moment (My doc uses certain civs I found throughout the doc but I’m wondering how much should I add to do the developing civs concept)
This actually reminds me of a project I was working with Guandao in which we made a giant list of Civs
The list goes as follows
Afghan
Ahomese
Ainu
Albanian
Algerian
American
Anishinaabe
Apache
Arabian
Argentine
Armenian
Ashanti
Assyrian
Australian
Austrian
Aztec
Babylonian
Baganda
Bagirmi
Bamum
Belgian
Beninese
Berber
Boers/Afrikaners/ South African (optional Civ)
Bohemian/Czech
Bosnian
Brazilian
Breton
Bulgarian
Bunuba
Burmese
Byzantine
Canadian
Carib
Carthaginian
Celtic
Cherokee
Chilean
Chimu
Chinese
Chinook
Choctaw
Chumash
Comanche
Cree
Creek/Muskogean
Croatian
Cuban
Dahomean
Danish
Darfur
Duala
Dutch
Egyptian
English
Eora
Ethiopian
Fijian
Filipino
Finnish
Frankish
French
Fulani/Fula
Gamilaraay
Georgian
German
Ghanaian
Gothic
Gran Colombian
Greek
Guamanian
Guarani
Guaymi/Ngabe
Haida
Haitian
Hausa
Hawaiian
Hittite
Hopi
Hungarian
Hunnic
Huron/Wyandot
Icelandic
Igbo
Incan
Indian
Indonesian
Irish
Iroquois
Italian
Jamaican
Japanese
Jolof
Judean/Hebrew
Kalenjin
Kanem
Kazakh
Khitan
Khmer
Khoikhoi
Kikuyu
Kiwi
Kongolese
Korean
Kuikuro
Kulin
Kurdish
Kushan
Laotian
Lenape
Lenca
Limba
Lithuanian
Luba
Malagasy
Malaysian
Maldivian
Malian
Manchu
Mandan
Maori
Mapuche
Matabele
Mayan
Mende
Mexican
Miami-Illinois
Micronesian
Mijikenda
Miskito
Mixtec
Mongolian
Moroccan
Mossi
Muiscan
Nabataean
Natchez
Navajo
Nenet
Nepali
Nez Perce
Noongar
Norman
Nootka/Nuu-chah-Nuulth
Norwegian
Nubian
Nyamwezi
Omagua/Cambeba
Ottoman/Turk
Ovambo
Paraguayan
Persian/Iranian
Peruvian
Phoenician
Polish
Pontic
Portuguese
Powhatan
Rapanui
Roman
Romanian
Russian
Rwandan
Sabaean
Salish
Samoan
Scottish
Scythian
Serbian
Serer
Shawnee
Shoshone
Siamese/Thai
Sibir
Sioux
Sogdian
Somalian
Songhai
Spanish
Sri Lankan
Sumerian
Swahili
Swazi
Swedish
Swiss
Syrian (Refers to Palmyra)
Tahitian
Taino/Arawak
Tairona
Tangut
Tarascan
Temne
Tehuelche
Tibetan
Timurid
Tlingit
Tongan
Tongva
Tswana
Tupi
Ukrainian
Uruguayan
Ute
Uyghur
Uzbek
Vanuatuan
Vietnamese
Wabanaki
Wadai
Wampanoag
Wassoulou
Welsh
Wiradjuri
Xhosa
Yaqui
Yeke/Garanganze
Yokut
Yoruba
Yuman
Zapotec
Zimbabwean
Zulu

this list would clearly bankrupt someone
 
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@Ryansinbela and @Boris Gudenuf you may want to take detailed discussions of compiled documents into direct messages, it takes up a lot of thread space.

Anyways, i was thinking about the earlier discussion on food and all that stuff.
On the one hand, we want resources to feel tangible to players - things like civ4's "hit movies/singles/musicals" are bad implementations of a resource, IMO.
So perhaps we could instead take the resources on the map and say something like:
  • The most basic level is being able to extract the resource, similar to how you need to build a mine on diamonds ot access them
  • The early-midgame could introduce the next level of infrastructure for that tile, something representing the artisans and craftsmen that turn luxury resources into luxury goods. This would be like an upgraded version of the base resource, in a 1:1 way.
  • The industrial era could introduce the final level of infrastructure, representing the factories and such needed to turn resources into manufactured or refined materials.
Now, I don't really love the idea of having elaborate production chains to make more and more complicated resources, but civ's resources could broadly be placed into a scheme such as ~ luxury and some bonus resources (like cows and crabs) are eligible to be turned into "luxury good" resources; strategic and the other bonus resources (stuff like stone and iron and copper) would be turned into manufactured / refined materials, like Steel. And they don't all have to come in at the industrial era, for example one could have Stone turned into Stonemasonry, represented by a pile of chiseled stone blocks, available quite early. And you could come up with various things these resources do by possessing them- in the simple case of luxury resources, perhaps luxury goods provide twice as many amenities and offer substantially greater benefit for trade routes than the basic version. Of course, some stuff, like wheat or corn, maybe just stays on the map.

Ideally these things would be tied to the map, so you might build a plantation on silk, and then need to put down a "pseudo district" (assuming a flexible and open ended district system) over that, which would then show a more advanced graphic, to get Silk Textiles. Silk textiles would simply be a superior version of silk. For some of the industrial stuff, you could have the same sort of thing - a mine getting replaced by a little steelworks or an oil well becoming a chemical refinery.

The reason to do this is to marry the map and empire building to the outputs of what is going on. rather than just throw more yield out, building up your empire results in you seeing that as the resources available to your empire become more advanced. Icons would need to reflect this, but it could avoid content overload while allowing a very healthy representation of economic advancement and resource use you guys love talking about.

this list would clearly bankrupt someone
You can take the route of humankind and have a system like "barbarian camps or city states can spring up on the map because there is usually someone living on any given tile" (i think this thread had that discussion several pages back) pulling from a list of names of minor factions. For example, a "settlement" appears and it's assigned the name "Zapotecs" on the map.
 
@Sostratus: Reference to 'progressive' benefits from Resources/Food. I agree completely, and also agree that elaborate 'chains' of Improvements, Buildings, Districts, and resources have to be avoided. A Historical 4X game in which most of your time is devoted to economics might be satisfying to a fraction of a decimal point of players, but for most it would be a massive distraction.

Using the hoary old Civ tradition of a three-tier progress, I suggest that something like this might work as a compromise between Dynamics in resources and complexity in play:

1. Resource: Found on map, exploited with certain Technologies to provide basic Food, Amenity, or Strategic benefit
2. Technology or Improvement/Building from Technology, allowing a '2nd Tier' advantage from the Resource
3. Technology, usually with a major Building/District improvement, that replaces the resource's effects with an 'artificial' or manufactured Resource.

Examples:
Food Resource - which is never precisely Replaced by an artificial resource, at least until Future Tech provides us with Startrekian Replicators.
Wheat/Grain is a basic Food Resource, exploitable with Agriculture, and more exploitable with Technological Improvements to agriculture, like Irrigation, improved plows, harnesses, mechanization, etc.
Grain can also be used to feed Horses, producing, with Pastures, the Warhorse, or larger mount for Heavy Cavalry. This, of course, is a trade-off: Grain resource fed to horses takes away from the Food produced for people.
On the discovery of Distilling Technology (Medieval Era) a Distillery Improvement can be built that converts Grain/Wheat into Distilled Spirits, an Amenity-producing Good which is also a lucrative Trade Good.
Amenity Resource:
Diamonds, a basic Amenity Resource, exploitable with Mining Technology. That Technology is Improved by discovery of Deep Mining (late Medieval Era) and Open Pit Mines (Atomic Era) which allow new deposits to be discovered and exploited.
In the Industrial Era, with discovery of Precision Machining, Diamonds become a Production enhancer as well, allowing more precise grinding and drilling of materials in manufacturing. Again, Diamonds allotted to manufacturing are not available to the population for Amenities.
With the discovery of Synthetic Materials Technology, Diamonds no longer become a Production enhancer, because synthetic Diamonds and other materials can be manufactured for the same purpose. They still provide Amenity, either as themselves or as part of Jewelry, another 'manufactured' Amenity resource.
Strategic Resource:
Horses, one of the first 'Strategic' Resources, exploited with Animal Husbandry and Pastures.
By adding Grain for special feed, a percentage of these can become Warhorses (14.5 hands high or larger) for Heavy Cavalry (including Heavy Chariots, which also required big, strong draft horses)
By building the Hippodrome, Race Track, or Derby Improvements, Horses become an Amenity and Gold producing resource from about the Classical (Hippodrome) to Industrial Eras (Race Track or Derby)
Field Artillery, and Artillery units (Not necessarily Bombards, which were frequently drawn by Oxen or even Elephants) both require Warhorses to haul them (from the Industrial Ea on, in fact, they required the heaviest of horses, more so than the 'heavy' cavalry).
With Combustion or Motorization technologies, the artillery units no longer require Warhorses, but will require Oil and become much more expensive: you pays yer money and takes yer choice (Notably, in the Real Historical World War Two of the Atomic Era, only the British and United State militaries motorized/mechanized all their artillery: Japan, Italy, Germany and the Soviet Union all had horse-drawn guns throughout the war, and therefore had to invest in Warhorses to pull them)

From the start, Resources should not be 'typecast' as one type or the other: it will depend on what they are being used for, which in turn will depend on Requirements and Technologies available. By developing 'chains' of Technology/Resource/Improvement-Buildings like the examples shown, we should be able to come up with relatively simple expansions of the resource-result chains to keep Resources dynamic and constantly requiring the gamer to develop his economy instead of, as now, slap down a Pasture, Mine or Plantation and forget about it.

You can take the route of humankind and have a system like "barbarian camps or city states can spring up on the map because there is usually someone living on any given tile" (i think this thread had that discussion several pages back) pulling from a list of names of minor factions. For example, a "settlement" appears and it's assigned the name "Zapotecs" on the map.

One of the previous Civ games, III or IV, did something similar: all Barbarians were named. On the other hand, all the Barbarians were also the same, so the names were just cosmetic.
In Humankind they do not appear to have the mindlessly aggressive Barbarian Camps of Civ, but instead Minor Factions, which can apparently all build cities and 'occupy' regions, can be aggressive or passive in various degrees. Instead of the tiered system of non-Civ elements in Civ VI, where we have Tribal Huts, Barbarian Camps, and City States, Humankind has 'artifacts' which can give bonuses similar (I suspect) to Tribal Huts, and Minor Factions which can play the part of either Civ's Barbarians or City States or both, a two-tier instead of three-tier system.

IF the names of the Minor Factions actually mean something, this is potentially a more flexible system than Civ, because the Minor Faction can play the part of your favorite Trading partner/bonus providing City State or be a Barbarian Pain in the Tookus depending on who they are. Potentially, they could also 'shade' into some of the playable Factions, because, as I understand it, the Huns and Mongols are playable 'pastoral' Factions who do not build cities, but instead have special Outposts that spawn military units and can hold territory to exploit resources. There's been some discussion of that over in the Humankind portion of this Forum, and it looks promising. Now imagine a Minor Faction that could provide horse archers to hire as auxiliaries or a trade route extension to trade with a Faction on the far side of them, and you recreate neatly the interactions with most of the pastoral 'Civs' of Central Asia: Scythians, Pachinaks, Sarmatians, Sogdians, etc, which facilitated the Silk Road trade route across Asia while also raiding or fighting for the various 'settled' Empires - even Athens hired Scythian horse archers for a time, and large elements of both the Roman auxiliary forces and the Chinese armies were composed of hired 'barbarians'.
 
How would your tech tree and eras work Boris, Like the 6. I prefer Lakely's division and the one from the units post (Neolithic, Ancient., Classical, Postclassical, Early Modern, Modern, Post Modern, Contemporary and Future) even though the Industrial placement is confusing
 
How would your tech tree and eras work Boris, Like the 6. I prefer Lakely's division and the one from the units post (Neolithic, Ancient., Classical, Postclassical, Early Modern, Modern, Post Modern, Contemporary and Future) even though the Industrial placement is confusing
I think you may find your answers in Tech Tree Revision.
 
Long time no post here from me. For several reasons, it's just been some posts scattered around in other threads and now I'll involve some of those thoughts in here. I've also rationalized (further) some of my initial thoughts to try (eventually) conclude it all into some sensible suggestions that could fit as Civ7 base conceptions.
:hammer2:(knocking on wood)

One of those new sensible thoughts are about leaders.
Now I think I'm pretty close to fully share @Boris Gudenuf point of view about it..
Spoiler Audience Room :
..
I've posted this a couple of times before, but to avoid the graphics Resource Sinkhole that is animated Leaders, I'd rather see the interface between Leaders (specifically between the Player and the AI Leaders) be an Audience Room in which you meet with Diplomats or Ministers of the Great One - who is represented by a large painting on the wall, or a monumental statue glimpsed in the room next door, or even in a small shrine in the corner (God Kings). The clothing of the ministers/diplomats might change through the Eras, but only a still depiction of the Ruler/Leader has to change, which would save a huge amount of graphic time and effort for places where it makes more sense from a game play perspective - like having Units for each Civ be uniformed specific to that Civ..
(If people would like to pay extra explicitly for it) I think animated (historical) leaders could still be a thing in Civ7, but not among the base concepts I'd like to see in (what I'd call) epic play mode..
Spoiler Civ 7 classic :
As I wrote in [POLL updated on request] About Civ6 finishing and Civ7 initiation
For me, "Modability - release Civ6 DLL-files" feel important, as I think that way Civ 7 could rely on three (3) separate play modes - scenario, classic and epic.

What I suggest (in https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ideas-for-the-perfect-4x-historical-game.654805 - though still in progress) would be epic, while what's already in Civ6 would be somewhat cut up into game modes (GM) and put in classic.

I think they could tie specific victory conditions (VC) to specific GM - eg Immortal leaders GM and Diplomatic VC, Missionary GM and Religious VC - to let those optional GM be some fantastic additions to a realistic base game.
Also, those new mods on Civ6 would be inspiring for Civ7 devs and then (thanks to the Civ6/Civ7-similarity) there would probably be more mods to Civ7.


Another one of those new sensible thoughts are about turns.
I still think it's better to have strategical decisions and tactical moves separated in ordinary turns and in-between turns - to get time and map scaling in a sensible way - there the strategical decisions may generate tensions that (depending on game setting) may (be enough to) start (tension related) in-between turns - a set of turns where tactical moves would be done on a seasonal/weather/et c changing map.

But to keep it simple, I'll first try to explain this from it's less intensive (tensions) setting - ordinary turns would gather up (eventually) enough tensions to release a set of (tactical) turns there a world era will be defined and ended.

In that world era defining set of turns, a sense of time spirit and issues depending on it will be to consider - you'd like to prepare for it (with strategical decisions) but (like in Civ6 WorldCongress) it's not all up to you.

Eg. a sense of time spirit could be protectionism and in preparation a lot of tension generating micromanaging actions have been done to make your civ great again, then a pandemic strikes and tensions release in tactical turns. GO! :devil:

(to be continued)
 
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Long time no post here from me. For several reasons, it's just been some posts scattered around in other threads and now I'll involve some of those thoughts in here. I've also rationalized (further) some of my initial thoughts to try (eventually) conclude it all into some sensible suggestions that could fit as Civ7 base conceptions.
:hammer2:(knocking on wood)

One of those new sensible thoughts are about leaders.
Now I think I'm pretty close to fully share @Boris Gudenuf point of view about it..

(If people would like to pay extra explicitly for it) I think animated (historical) leaders could still be a thing in Civ7, but not among the base concepts I'd like to see in (what I'd call) epic play mode..
Spoiler Civ 7 classic :


Taking your idea and mine and running with it, I could see a 'basic' Audience Room, diplomat animation in which most diplomacy would be conducted. But, as a set of DLCs you could invest in animated Leaders for some Civs based on Leaders who conducted much of their diplomacy in person - Modern Leaders like Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt, for instance, or Great Kings like Cyrus of Persia.

And, you could invest in Diplomatic Animations - get a Great Diplomat or Minister like Solon of Athens, Hasdai ibn Shaprut of Adalusia, Thomas Cromwell of England, Richelieu or Tallyrand of France, etc., completely animated to represent your Civ in the game - and each with Unique Attributes to 'enhance' your diplomacy.

Another possibility would be the be able to 'personalize' your Audience Room ala the Palace/Throne Room in Civ II: based on the Civ you are playing and the general Era for a basic architectural style, then adding touches based on what you've accomplished and discovered, or even what Great Artists or Wonders you've obtained/built in that particular game . . .
 
I strongly prefer the Leader Reps Civilization mechanic to stay the way it is. It is one of the defining features of Civ.

Instead of making a 3D model, I would like a 2D one instead, with a more painted look. It will be less expensive to make than a 3D animated portrait and will look just as gorgeous; and as a plus side, it allows for more leaders to be added ^__^
 
My list currently includes just
Churchill
Cyrus
Eisenhower
FDR
Jefferson
Lincoln
Napoleon
Roosevelt
Washington
All Civs without a known leader either get a generic leader or a custom leader
 
I strongly prefer the Leader Reps Civilization mechanic to stay the way it is. It is one of the defining features of Civ.

Instead of making a 3D model, I would like a 2D one instead, with a more painted look. It will be less expensive to make than a 3D animated portrait and will look just as gorgeous; and as a plus side, it allows for more leaders to be added ^__^

The Individualized Leader for a Civ is a defining feature of the Civ Franchise, but those 'defining features' are precisely the elements of the 4X Historical game that should be examined.
On the plus side, individual leaders add character to the Civ and provide a personalized way to add individuality to the Civ. As the Alternate Leaders approach shows, when well-done individual leaders allow you to play virtually a different Civ just by changing the Leader representation.
On the minus side, individualized Leaders compress the characteristics of a several thousand year old civilization into a single lifetime and for civs of really long duration (China, India, Egypt) no set of alternate Leaders can cover the scope of the Civ adequately. Couple that to the fact that a 3D animation as used in Civ VI sucks an enormous share of the graphics resources out of the rest of the game, and I think such a concept needs to have a new look.

I think it is especially interesting that the Humankind game does away with named leaders completely. Instead, you build an 'avatar' which, apparently, is based on yourself, your playstyle, even your appearance. Talk about identifying with your Civ/Faction! On the other hand, I am not sure that will be enough for the gamers who want to play as a specific historical character: there is no identification directly with the specific Faction you are playing in any single game, as near as I can tell from the material released so far.

I think what is needed is a system that retains some elements of the individuality of the Civ leadership historically while keeping the pressure on the graphics resources to a minimum so that a much wider variety of the leadership can be depicted.

Note that my suggestion of a 3D animated Audience Room with diplomats included a 2D portrait/sculpture/representation of the Leader, so would be very nearly what you suggested. I think asking players to go 'back' to entirely 2D representation after they've had the 3D animated Leaders will be a Hard Sell without throwing them some kind of animated feature, which is why I made the suggestion in the first place.
 
I was thinking about minor factions, or trying to at least. I once had some clear requirements in mind, for how to adjust from Civ V's city-states as a base. I don't think Civ V had it that bad. The Minor Factions should: relate to the diplomatic victory, provide marginal bonuses for predictable investment, and behave meekly but self-preservingly in terms of military.

I don't know what diplomatic victory of the perfect 4X game will look like, but, neither did Civ VI on release, so that could be left open in the design. What I want to get right are the mechanics of "favor" that the city-state has for the major powers, and when and where the city-state becomes sphered or what that means.

One complaint people had with City-States is how they were manipulated with gold, like strange, greedy goblins who would throw in with whoever showed them more shinies, contrary to whatever other relationship built from the ancient era they might have. This got me thinking that what was needed was to expand the favor attribute to more than a single variable. The decision of the Minor to "ally" with a major would be based not on just a threshold, but on an equation of multiple fields that implement that Minor's memory of actions that showed favor. This equation, we want to satisfy certain properties:

1. Be ultimately a sound measurement of progress toward Diplomatic victory. That is, be something that players can accept is a well-won asset for a win condition about a diplomatic win.
2. Giving gifts increases the favor to the giving Civ, with sustained support being the most effective, onetime massive endowment being almost as good, and such gifts decreasing the sensitivity to gifts from other powers. A city-state that finds itself the recipient of heaps and oodles of international aid, I think would become expectant of that dedication--and, in any case, it would provoke good gameplay--so if a certain city-state is for various reasons a strategically important ally, it raises its own bar for showing an interest in getting favors. It would be smug in everything but a leader screen!

3. Civ V introduced minor power "quests", and it's a good system. It can be used subtly to encourage players to just do other 'good' things when the quests are the achievement races, like "get the most culture". The other side of quests, the sort of, random, mercurial favors you do, like "bully my Minor Rival", those are good in that they direct you to make a sacrifice, to build that influence. It's a double sacrifice, frst of all, directing your attention to do something uneconomical instead of mind your own game, and secondly, probably throwing away standing with whatever you were asked to bully or oppose.
The rewards for these quests were very small, and also fell into the same "leaking" meter as any other favor, so the idea of making a sacrifice to do it is just well out of the question. They also are a highly insubstantial game event, in that, it only "exists" in that moment of you fulfilling the mission, and there isn't any real consequence to the City-State or the game world. When a CS tries the "development project" mission and wants some money, you're not going to see that City-State actually build anything any faster. I say all this, yet, I don't think it's necessary to make the favor be any more substantial. "Currying favor with the Minor factions" can be something you just do and never worry about long-term effects, I think that is the playability people generally want, and how the "Minor" part will be realized from their simplicity. No need for an actual A.I. for them, just a system that judges more and less - players don't want to have to think "humanistically" about them. There is one caveat to this, which has to do with CS bullying, I'll cover below.

4. Civ VI has CS envoys, and the Vox Populi mod also has envoys, which are built with production, have their "throughput" throttled by era, and each give influence to replace the gold system. Clearly, diplomacy in the nominal sense is part of the world we want to simulate. I am utterly unimpressed with the entire economics of envoys in Civ VI, getting them trickle in from government tier just smacks me, I don't get it. Rather, envoys I think are something the value of which -to the City-State-, changes and matures as the City-State progresses in the eras and evolves -its- government. A City-State which is bullied to the point of barbarism, would, like a feral child, perhaps not be able to receive value from a mere visitor, either a foreign friend or anyone else. And envoys, what sacrifice do they really represent? Even a spy is a thief who is taken away from his thievery role. Civ VI envoys are just a trickle of CS influence and you get to choose what friend you want, merely at the cost of a different CS friend - but you're going to get one.
So, I'm okay with envoys, if we figure out what favor they're really granting to the Minor - (would it be more like a "quest" boon, or an international aid boon? Or a third effect?) - and we make the employment of envoys something that you pay to do (so that you are earning those Diplomatic victory assets), it will be fine.


We also have the City-State bullying system. Civ V had some quirky numbers where you could bully CS for free, since the profits could pay off influence at a higher rate. I would like to make successful bullying a bit more challenging but still present, and still 100% predictable. This, I think, should introduce consequences that are permanent. A CS is bullied, so, it probably tries to stop being bullied. The "Pledge for Protection" quest could be increased in value. It might build walls and units, which could increase the required power level for intimidating them. And each time it is bullied, it should make the City-State intrinsically less favorable to the bully. So, you can have an allied City-State which you bully, and yadda yadda, the City-State just comes to accept its place in the world, still overall being your sphered faction, but! You can now not win their positive feelings from gifts (of money or whatever else), not as much as other Civs. MAybe even, the City-State will accelerate its timer for quests, to build a relationship with other Civs and get you off its back. However, there should also be forgiveness in terms of long eras of friendliness. So, I think that bullying would affect the City-State with a meter of a grudge, which decays, and though the Gifting ability would be hindered (so that the City-State doesn't appear to be a country of goblins who can be bribed to endure anything), the quests would be unaffected, so that you can undo some of that grudge meter by going out of your way to fulfill those requests.

Quests + Gifting is a good system also because it has two timelines for the same goal of influence. Quests, you can't control how often they come, they're just a 'chance' that you might take. Gifting is something you can do to capture influence when you need to get something now, when you need an online course correction, when that congress sitting is coming, etc. As already overviewed, it's important to make the scale of these two things a good fit. Favor isn't something that decays, rather, it's something that makes the City-State a bit more demanding of favors to continue to improve the relationship, which would be a race.


Ahhh, and now two other points are coming back to me. I remember now. One, the City-State should be able to be a major ally of more than one Civ at once. I know that it can't be in more than 1 Civ's "Sphere" (I don't know the political history of what that really is), but, in terms of just the alliance bonuses, like giving you food or military production or whatever, it makes sense to me if the CS is tracking the friendliness to have with other Civs at all angles. The Corollary of this is that, of course, being an ally is not what matters for a City-State to follow a Major into war. That is a higher-tiered benefit you must pass more conditions to unlock.
And two, the City-State doesn't change its ally/friendliness status on the player's turn, but instead shifts its allegiances on its own turn (between player turns). I know this solves a couple of problems of an exploit standpoint for multiplayer play, of having the "last word" in capturing favor before the City-State elections and Congress sessions. If the CS simply track that favor now, but change attitudes together from a hands-off position, then it's just a matter of outdoing the total investment of other players (which you could still see - the change in attitude could be shown in a forecast that's public), and you also thereby add another layer of manner in which the change in attitude "takes time" and forward thinking. You must plan and work ahead of a change in favor from a City-State you want to get bonuses with. Oh, and the game could even make those changes in attitude only as frequent as CS elections, instead of every turn. The only way to turn a CS in one turn would be with a spy action!


Finally, just a note that in Civ V, when you have a City-State you want to protect, Civ V doesn't actually have a way for you to know if other civs are bullying it! Total oversight. If the quest isn't triggered, you can't really do anything to 'fulfill' a pledge of protection, because bullying is secret. You just have to maintain a military presence, and think of it as denying your rivals that income. This should not be this way.
 
I strongly prefer the Leader Reps Civilization mechanic to stay the way it is. It is one of the defining features of Civ.

Most of Civfanatics are like you. Just get a look at the enormous success of topics like "what new leaders would you want ?", and the mere lists, sometimes as long as the arm, that people throw there. But, IMO, it's because people have no imagination : they wouldn't abandon this feature because it already exists, they couldn't set up their mind to see what wonders we could do by abandonning it.
For their defense, leaders exist in Civ series as soon as the first iteration, and it has become a "tradition" in this forum to tell stories like "hey, i did that to X and you know what X did ? X did that ! It's it hilarious ?" and when you mix up several cartoonish figureheads in a craddle, that have most of the time nothing in common, it can create very funny situations. "X did this to Y, the way he responded was hilariously stupid, ha, mighty Y !" That's like oral tradition, be it on those forums or IRL between two friends.
But if you stick to the game, well, this doesn't bring much. For sure, it can make adverstising, but it's more marketing than game design. (a thing to consider for marketers at Firaxis when advertising their 3D models for Civ7)
 
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