Ideas for The Perfect 4X Historical Game

[Lord Lakely]

Attrition is pretty easy though. Give every unit a Supply Rating and every tile a Supply Limit based on terrain type and features. If the unit's Supply Rating > the tile's Supply Limit, it can no longer heal and takes attrition damage. Techs unlock additional supply limit.

Combine with unit stacking for easy army generation.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I have enjoyed the attrition in EU, but then I play as Muscovy or Novgorod a lot and it's always fun to see a massive enemy army melt away trying to get to Moscow or Novgorod from central Europe! That game and Napoleon Total War, which I've seen but not played, are more narrowly focused on a single Era/area of history, in which not having campaign attrition makes most of the military campaigns of that era of history nonsensical.
In a larger 4X Historical gaming context, attrition definitely has a place, but it has to include two basic Factors:
1. It should punish Fantasy Actions like marching an army across a continent of howling wilderness in the Classical Era and expecting it to arrive intact - or at all.
2. It must NOT require a gamer to constantly keep track of supply. The attrition factors should be transparent, simple, and obvious, like "Don't move a stack of units into Snow Tiles" or "Cavalry Units take attrition if they end their move on a Jungle Tile". There should be a really simple prgression: In Supply, no problem. Marginal Supply, combat factors are reduced because some men are wandering off looking for food or your horses are getting too weak. Out of Supply - Attrition Starts. I'd have the 'supply lines' on the map, like trade routes, and if the track starts showing Red, you are getting out of supply. Might even give you a really obvious signal, like when supply fails, your troops automatically Pillage every tile they pass through, as they go foraging for food and fodder.

Attrition/Supply would be a whole new Mechanic in a Civ game, so before even contemplating adding it to the game, it has to be completely thought out, and tested, and kept as simple as possible or it will simply add a level of frustration to the game, which Civ has enough of already.

Dealing with attrition debuffs. what's your idea? do you think pre existing cultural border should do a trick with attritions?

And combat. ranged and stackings. what model did you like most?
1. Stackings (like Civ 1-4, Conquest of the New World, Heroes of Might and Magic series)
2. Limited Stackings (Call to Power, Total War series)
3. Hex map no stackings (Panzer General)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Attrition is pretty easy though. Give every unit a Supply Rating and every tile a Supply Limit based on terrain type and features. If the unit's Supply Rating > the tile's Supply Limit, it can no longer heal and takes attrition damage. Techs unlock additional supply limit.

Combine with unit stacking for easy army generation.

Easy to come up with rules, tough to come up with a system that in its actual numbers isn't either too restrictive or too lenient, which is why I am certain that any set of supply/attrition rules will have to be thoroughly tested before being released onto an unsuspecting Gaming Public.
Supply Limit, in your example, would be limited by terrain, improvements/features, and Technology and the Supply Rating of a unit or army would be heavily affected by Technology: both in the better ability to move supplies as road/railroad/shipping technologies improve, and in the increased Need for supplies for some units, like modern artillery (100s of tons of bulky ammunition to be effective at full strength) and motorized/mechanized units (100s of tons of bulky fuel to do anything).
Parenthetically, well thought out supply/attrition rules would automatically balance units now considered OP, like Heavy Cavalry (require bulky Fodder for their heavy horses) and Ranged (artillery) units.

Dealing with attrition debuffs. what's your idea? do you think pre existing cultural border should do a trick with attritions?

Cultural borders or affiliation have little or nothing to do with attrition, unless the differences are so extreme that you are presuming some kind of guerrilla warfare against the attritted units. Attrition is caused primarily by the inability to feed a moving mass of men and animals, and throughout most of history, that has been a factor of the inability of the 'tile' they were moving through to provide food/fodder/supplies. Who was living in the tile meant relatively little. The classic example would be the movement of Marlborough's English/British army through Germany in 1704 CE. The area they moved through was not even all allied with Britain, but since his quartermaster moved ahead of the army paying hard gold coin for supplies the army was inundated every evening in their camp by locals bringing in food, drink, fodder, and everything else they needed - even firewood was delivered! The Supply Mechanism in this case, made all the difference.

And combat. ranged and stackings. what model did you like most?
1. Stackings (like Civ 1-4, Conquest of the New World, Heroes of Might and Magic series)
2. Limited Stackings (Call to Power, Total War series)
3. Hex map no stackings (Panzer General)

In a Grand Strategic 4x Historical Game with the scope and scale of Civilization, Humankind, Europa Universalis, etc, I have come to the conclusion that stacking is a Requirement unless you want each unit to represent a collection of different types of units and weapons.
Right now I'm taking a hard look at the Humankind/Endless Legend system of Stacking Limited by Era, which includes limited rules for tactical combat that allow both the interaction between weapons and the logical pluses and minuses to each weapon system in combat. The major change I would make would be to limit stacking not by artificial Era, but by specific Technologies and mechanisms developed throughout the game. For instance, the development of larger formations like Divisions and Corps to make the command and control of larger armies possible in the 18th century, or the development of Signaling Systems with arrows and banners that made it possible for the Mongols to control larger and more mobile Hosts on the battlefield.

As @Lord Lakely mentioned, Stacking would also be severely limited in practice by the terrain in a tile, or How Many Men/Animals can be fed from a tile. You might be allowed to stack 10 units, but stacking 10 units in a Tundra, Snow, or Desert hex where there isn't enough food or water for more than 1 unit will cause major attrition unless you also have the Technology to deliver supplies from outside the tile/hex - which will be difficult for most of the game unless you are moving along a coast with a fleet handy to deliver from a distance. There's a reason Xerxes' Persian host moved along the coast through the Hot Gates (Thermopolye) rather than inland - his fleet was supplying them, and when the fleet was crushed at Salamis, most of the army had to run for home or starve in a Greece that nowhere could feed an extra 100,000 men in a 'tile'.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Easy to come up with rules, tough to come up with a system that in its actual numbers isn't either too restrictive or too lenient, which is why I am certain that any set of supply/attrition rules will have to be thoroughly tested before being released onto an unsuspecting Gaming Public.
Supply Limit, in your example, would be limited by terrain, improvements/features, and Technology and the Supply Rating of a unit or army would be heavily affected by Technology: both in the better ability to move supplies as road/railroad/shipping technologies improve, and in the increased Need for supplies for some units, like modern artillery (100s of tons of bulky ammunition to be effective at full strength) and motorized/mechanized units (100s of tons of bulky fuel to do anything).
Parenthetically, well thought out supply/attrition rules would automatically balance units now considered OP, like Heavy Cavalry (require bulky Fodder for their heavy horses) and Ranged (artillery) units.

Yes, clearly, the numbers game is tedious but it's quite important, so I'll give it a crack. For starters, you would have to consider which units require more supply:

Infantry would require less supply than Cavalry
Cavalry would require less supply than Artillery

but even if follow that basic principle, you have to consider whether heavy infantry requires equal supply to light infantry, recon units and archers. Does heavy cavalry require the same supply as light cavalry? How do you balance that compared with their production cost and wages?

Generally, as rule of thumb I would propose

Light infantry < Skirmishers < Regular infantry < Archers < Light Cavalry < Cavalry Archers < Heavy Infantry < Heavy Cavalry < Light Artillery < Heavy Artillery

When we look at these unit types, if we assign everyone a different value, we already know we can't make Supply a low value. If Peasant Levies cost 1 Supply and every other group costs more, then Heavy Artillery could have a cost of 10, which might be a bit absurd. What we could do instead is start at a high(ish) number with the "cheapest" unit costing 5 and then the heaviest unit costing around 20. This avoids fractions (which are messy) and gives a 15-point range which gives the developers some leeway, while also avoid ridiculous proportions.

Clearly Technology could unlock units with lower inherent supply costs compared to their previous counterparts.

then, the next question to ask would be concerning the units travelling with the army. Do civilian units cost supply? Do Great People travelling with the army cost supply? Do Air units? Do support units? Support units can be expanded to include Supply Wagons which decrease the army's total supply, at the cost of mobility. Personally, I think there should be a cost, but a small one. Workers and Settlers should probably be the most expensive compared to other miscellanneous non-combat units.

and then finally the tiles themselves. What is the army composition we're aiming for? Personally, I believe that with a system where every unit has a Supply Rating between 5 and 20, the sweet spot should be around 40 - supporting a warband of ~7 weak units per army or fewer if you use "better quality" troops.

So if we assume that 40 is the Supply limit we're aiming for on "regular tiles", we need to determine other tile-related factors that may impact supply

Factors that increase the Supply Limit, improving the maximum amount of troops that can be stacked: Rivers (+5), Roads(+5), Railroads(+5), Oasis (+3), City Districts (+3), Tile Improvements (various), Forts/Castles (+10), Food-related Resources (+4)
Factors that decrease the Supply Limit, lowering the maximum amount of troops that can be stacked: Swamps/Marshlands (-10), Desert (-15), Tundra (-20), Mountains/Volcano (-25), World Wonders(-4), Natural Wonders (-3), pillaged tile improvements (-1/turn until at 50% of the usual value)
Factors that are dynamic: Forests (+2 Supply Cost for cavalry, -1 for Light Infantry), Hills (+2 Supply Cost for Artillery), Taiga (-1 Supply cost for Cavalry, +2 for everyone else), Weather-related events (various)

Based on these values, I would suggest a base Supply value of 25 or 30. Now that we can have a ratio, we can downside the numbers again: If we assign Supply Values between 1 and 4 to all units, the base Supply Limit of tiles should be 5 or 6, increased or decreased based on the features. Just be aware that if you do this you may use fractions to express Supply.

For water tiles, regardless of values I would decrease the Supply Limit depending on the distance from the nearest uncovered land tile, causing Naval attrition until the right tech has been unlocked. Technologies near the midgame take away these penalties completely. Otherwise, same principles apply. Naval units are harder to determine the supply rating for - a heavy vessel can carry more provisions and should in fact take less attrition damage, but at the same time the game should incentivise the player to have fewer of them, compared to the lighter ship types. Nibbling on the Supply wouldn't help here, but a difference in maintenance cost might. I would say give ever naval or embarked unit a Supply Cost of 5 and ever water tile a Base Supply Limit of 30, decreasing by -3 for every tile away from a land tile.

Now as for attrition damage itself, I would propose a reduction in health based on the difference between the Supply Limit and the total Army Supply value, if the latter exceeds the former. There several potential formula's you could explore here, but I would use the difference in supply value and supply limit to determine the percentage of lost health. Establishing a hard cap (based terrain type?) would be necessary here, because otherwise your units will melt away, discouraging war.

The real tediousness doesn't stem from the values however. The movement of these armies from one tile to another, while also factoring into account movement speed is the real pain point. The interface and movement system should make it easy for players to form and regroup armies, while also clearly indicating if a stack will take attrition damage or not. This issue is more UI-related though and less on topic with the subject of this thread, but it is worth nothing.

As for the historical flavours, I'll leave those for Boris Gudenuf to determine, but I stick with the above as a baseline.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Easy to come up with rules, tough to come up with a system that in its actual numbers isn't either too restrictive or too lenient, which is why I am certain that any set of supply/attrition rules will have to be thoroughly tested before being released onto an unsuspecting Gaming Public.
Supply Limit, in your example, would be limited by terrain, improvements/features, and Technology and the Supply Rating of a unit or army would be heavily affected by Technology: both in the better ability to move supplies as road/railroad/shipping technologies improve, and in the increased Need for supplies for some units, like modern artillery (100s of tons of bulky ammunition to be effective at full strength) and motorized/mechanized units (100s of tons of bulky fuel to do anything).
Parenthetically, well thought out supply/attrition rules would automatically balance units now considered OP, like Heavy Cavalry (require bulky Fodder for their heavy horses) and Ranged (artillery) units.



Cultural borders or affiliation have little or nothing to do with attrition, unless the differences are so extreme that you are presuming some kind of guerrilla warfare against the attritted units. Attrition is caused primarily by the inability to feed a moving mass of men and animals, and throughout most of history, that has been a factor of the inability of the 'tile' they were moving through to provide food/fodder/supplies. Who was living in the tile meant relatively little. The classic example would be the movement of Marlborough's English/British army through Germany in 1704 CE. The area they moved through was not even all allied with Britain, but since his quartermaster moved ahead of the army paying hard gold coin for supplies the army was inundated every evening in their camp by locals bringing in food, drink, fodder, and everything else they needed - even firewood was delivered! The Supply Mechanism in this case, made all the difference.

Then this come the concepts of supply line lens. from the origin point (where should the origin points be?) where green is full supply, yellow is limited supply, red is disrupted supply lines and when attrition comes to play. supply like is affected not only by distances but also enemy presences and one-turn possible operational ranges (where light cavalry and fighter planes might try to raid supply lines).
And this also means options to 'buy' supply points from allies or conquered cites (not fully owned ) ??

In a Grand Strategic 4x Historical Game with the scope and scale of Civilization, Humankind, Europa Universalis, etc, I have come to the conclusion that stacking is a Requirement unless you want each unit to represent a collection of different types of units and weapons.
Right now I'm taking a hard look at the Humankind/Endless Legend system of Stacking Limited by Era, which includes limited rules for tactical combat that allow both the interaction between weapons and the logical pluses and minuses to each weapon system in combat. The major change I would make would be to limit stacking not by artificial Era, but by specific Technologies and mechanisms developed throughout the game. For instance, the development of larger formations like Divisions and Corps to make the command and control of larger armies possible in the 18th century, or the development of Signaling Systems with arrows and banners that made it possible for the Mongols to control larger and more mobile Hosts on the battlefield.
.

1. What is the minimum unit slot per stack at the beginning? 2 or 3 ?
2. It means gunpowder should also adds one slot for big guns?
3. Your ideas of unit class system?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Okay, time to talk Units. Specifically, time to lay out for comment a new way of building and promoting Units compared to the system used throughout the Civ franchise and, apparently, repeated in the Humankind game.

Here are the Basic Principles:
1. In a game encompassing 6000 + years, ALL units are built in 1 Turn until the last Eras of the game. By the Industrial/Late Modern Era, a Battleship or Aircraft Carrier might take 4 - 6 years to build, but even the German and United States Armies in World War Two could field an Infantry or Armored/Panzer Division in a year, and that's the normal minimum game turn length. There is no excuse for taking a couple of centuries to 'build' a Slinger in the Ancient Era.
2. ALL Units require three things to Build them: Population, Weapons, and Equipment. Almost all units require some equipment, in the form of things that don'y directly hurt the enemy (weapons) but are required to keep the unit/army in the field. Even the very efficient Roman Army had a mule for every conturba, or squad of 8 men, to carry the 50 - 80 pound leather squad tent, cooking pot, and other impedimenta. In a Legion comprising 110 squads, that a lot of mules, and their fodder, as 'equipment'.
Weapons and Equipment can be built and stored, because unless they are On Hand in sufficient quantity, a unit cannot be built at all. All such require certain manufactured or natural 'Materials' which change throughout the game: the same basic leather, horn, wood, hide, sinew materials that provide weapons and equipment for Ancient Slingers and Warriors will not equip a Knight, let alone an Antitank Gun.
3. Bonuses or special factors affecting the relationship of Units and weapons to each other are applied by individual units, not by 'Classes'. Thus, a Spearman has a bonus against cavalry, a Swordsman a bonus versus spears or pikes, Greatswords a bonus versus any armored troops, etc, but there is no Class of Melee or Anti-Cav getting a 'blanket bonus'.
4. Which means that Promotions are not by Class either. In fact, Promotions are of two kinds:
Technical Upgrades - as when you add light shields to your slingers, or Face-Hardened Armor to your Tanks, or motorized tractors (equipment) to your Artillery. These change the capabilities of the Units, but do not change their basic nature: the slinger is still a Slinger and not an Archer, the Tank is still a Tank and not a Main Battle Tank, the artillery still shoots the same, but now moves faster.
Training. - This is a 'catch-all' covering both formal training and experience. Formal Training requires Resources, Time, and Faciities - in other words, an investment of your Civ's wealth in various forms. Experience requires that you put your Units to work and, usually, Risk Them.
5. Special Abilities such as the ability to hide from enemies, parachute into battle, or move easily over rough terrain, are also a product of either Training or Experience, frequently coupled with Special Equipment: no one to this day has figured out how to get heavy tanks to move easily over rough terrain, or 'hide' a Battleship. Cuirassiers, as a rule, make lousy Scouts. On the other hand, people who grow up in extreme environments can generally move and fight in them much more easily than people who have to learn all the techniques the Hard Way. Hire or recruit your Mountain Troops from people living next to mountains, not the web-footed folks down in the flatland swamps.

Basic Units.
All of these can be Technologically Upgraded or Trained. Right now, I am assuming a basic 3 possible Technical Upgrades per unit, so this 'basic' list actually encompasses potentially up to 6 times this many units with varying factors and capabilities. For examples, the Technical Upgrades for the Neolithic/Starting, Ancient and Classical Eras are included. The units are divided by Era for convenience, even though Eras as such will not appear in the game except as 'markers'.
* = an Upgrade with Other Effects, like requiring that a unit be Permanently Raised, with additional on-going maintenance costs.
First line shows title of Unit
Second line shows type of unit, type of movement, and type of Equipment
Equipment is also an indicator of relative Maintenance Costs for the units. Heavy Equipment will cost you more, as a rule, and some Technical Upgrades dramatically change the Equipment rating.

Starting/Neolithic Units:
Scout
Recon, Light Foot, No Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Shields (Bonus versus Ranged Fire)
.....Slings/Self Bows (Limited Ranged Fire)
.....Clan Leader in Charge (limited Diplomatic Ability)
Slinger
Short Ranged, Light Foot, Light Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Shields (Bonus versus Ranged Fire)
.....Lead Pellets (Increased Range and Effect)*
.....Side Arm (short spear, dagger, etc - increased Melee factor in Defense Only)
Warrior
Close Combat, Medium Foot, Light Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Shields (Bonus versus Ranged Fire)
.....Non-Metal Body Armor (Bonus in Close Combat Defense)
.....Copper/Bronze Weapons (short axes, daggers, etc - Bonus in Close Combat Attack)

Ancient Era Units:
Archer
Ranged, Medium Foot, Light Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Shields (Bonus versus Ranged Fire)
.....Metal Body Armor (Bonus versus Melee Attack)
.....Composite Bows (Increased Ranged Attack Factor)*
Spearman
Close Combat, Medium Foot, Light Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Metal Body Armor (Bonus against Melee Attack)
.....Composite Shield (Bonus versus Ranged Fire)
.....Auxiliary Weapon (dagger, short sword) (Bonus in Attack versus Infantry)
Chariot
Mounted Combat, Medium Horse, Medium Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Armored Chariot Body (Bonus versus Ranged attack)
.....Scythes (Bonus Attack factor)*
.....Bows (Ranged factor, reduces Mounted Combat factor)
Galley
Naval Close Combat, Light Oared, Medium Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Metal Ram (Bonus in Melee Attack)
.....Lateen Auxiliary Sails (Bonus in Combat)
.....Partial Deck (Cataphractii) (Bonus versus Ranged attack)

Classical Era Units:
Swordsman
Close Combat, Medium Foot, Light Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Metal Body Armor (Bonus against Melee attack)
.....Steel Swords (increased Close Combat factor)*
.....Interlocking Shields (Bonus versus Ranged attack)
Horseman
Mounted Combat, Light Horse, Medium Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Shields (Bonus versus Ranged attack)
.....Metal Body Armor (Bonus in Close Combat) - and becomes Medium Horse
.....Lance (Bonus in Close Combat attack)*
Horse Archer (Special Recruiting Restrictions)
Mounted Ranged, Light Horse, Light Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Metal Body Armor (Bonus against Melee attack)
.....Armored Horse (Bonus versus Ranged attack) - and becomes Medium Horse
.....Asymmetrical Bows (increased Range and Range attack factor)*
Quinquereme (Polyreme)
Naval Ranged, Medium Oared, Medium Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Bolt-Throwing Catapults (Increased Ranged attack)
.....Corvus (Melee attack after firing)*
.....Flammables (Increased Close Combat factors)*

Post Classical Era Units:
Knight
Mounted Combat, Heavy Horse, Medium Equipment
Crossbowman
Ranged, Medium Foot, Light Equipment
Great Swordsman
Close Combat, Heavy Foot, Light Equipment
Pikeman
Close Combat, Medium Foot, Light Equipment
Bombard
Siege Ranged, Super Heavy Draft Team, Heavy Equipment
Cog
Naval Armed Transport, Medium Sail, Medium Equipment

Early Modern Era Units:
Pike and Shot
Close Combat, Medium Foot, Medium Equipment
Dragoon
Mounted Ranged*, Medium Horse, Medium Equipment
Fusilier
Close Combat, Medium Foot, Medium Equipment
Field Cannon
Ranged, Medium Draft Team, Medium Equipment
Howitzer
Ranged, Heavy Draft Team, Medium Equipment
Cuirassier
Mounted Combat, Heavy Horse, Medium Equipment
Light Cavalry
Mounted Combat, Light Horse, Medium Equipment
Carrack
Naval Close Combat, Medium Sail, Medium Equipment
Galleon
Naval Ranged, Medium Sail, Medium Equipment
Frigate
Naval Close Combat, Fast Sail, Medium Equipment
Ship-of-the-Line
Naval Ranged, Heavy Sail, Heavy Equipment

Modern Era Units:
Infantryman
Cose Combat, Medium Foot, Medium Equipment
Cavalry
Mounted Combat*, Medium Horse, Medium Equipment
Tank
Mechanized Combat, Medium Mechanized, Heavy Equipment
Armored Car
Mechanized Ranged, Light Wheeled, Medium Equipment
Artillery
Ranged, Heavy Draft Team, Heavy Equipment
Antiaircraft Artillery
Anti-Air*, Wheeled Towed, Medium Equipment
Antitank Artillery
Anti-Mechanized*, Wheeled Towed, Medium Equipment
Ironclad
Naval Ranged, Medium Steam, Heavy Equipment
Cruiser
Naval Melee, Light Steam, Medium Equipment
Battleship
Naval Ranged, Heavy Steam, Heavy Equipment
Aircraft Carrier
Naval Special Transport, Heavy Turbine, Heavy Equipment
Destroyer
Naval Close Combat, Light Turbine, Medium Equipment
Submarine
Naval Ranged*, Light Turbine, Medium Equipment
Biplane
Air Combat, Single Engine, Medium Equipment
Zeppelin
Ranged Air Combat, Single Engine, Heavy Equipment
Fighter
Air Combat, Single Engine, Medium Equipment
Bomber
Air Ranged Combat, Multi-Engine, Heavy Equipment

Post-Modern Era Units:
Mechanized Infantry
Close Combat*, Light Mechanized, Medium Equipment
Main Battle Tank
Mechanized Combat, Heavy Mechanized, Heavy Equipment
Rocket Artillery
Ranged, Light Mechanized, Heavy Equipment
Antiaircraft Missile
Anti-Air*, Light Mechanized, Medium Equipment
Supercarrier
Naval Special Transport, Heavy Turbine, Heavy Equipment
Missile Frigate
Naval Ranged, Medium Turbine, Medium Equipment
Nuclear Submarine
Naval Ranged*, Medium Turbine, Heavy Equipment
Jet Fighter
Air Combat, Turbojet, Medium Equipment
Jet Strike Aircraft
Air Ranged Combat, Turbojet, Heavy Equipment
Nuclear Bomber
Special Air Ranged, Multi-Jet, Heavy Equipment
Nuclear Missile
Special Air Ranged, Rocket, Heavy Equipment

Contemporary Units:
Light Infantry
Close Combat, Light Wheeled, Medium Equipment
Special Forces
Close Combat*, Light Foot, Light Equipment
Helicopter Gunship
Air Combat Ranged*, Light Turbine*, Heavy Equipment
Cruise Missile
Air Ranged*, Rocket, Medium Equipment

(Possible) Future Era Units:
Satellite Strike Weapon
Ranged*, Space to Ground, Heavy Equipment
Mobile Infantry
Close Combat, Self-Powered*, Heavy Equipment
Autonomous Strike Weapons
Ranged, Air Ground or Space, Medium Equipment

Before you ask, Rifles, Machine guns, Light Antitank Weapons, Drones, Stealth construction and several other 'separate weapons;' are now Technical Upgrades to other units.
Ability to Parachute into battle, be invisible under certain circumstances, and other 'special effects' are the result of specialized Training and, sometimes, Equipment for some of the Basic Units.

 

[Sostratus]

@Boris Gudenuf
I have been thinking about your system. I wonder how to implement that kind of concept in a clean way so that players aren’t overwhelmed. I do think the idea that you build equipment and levy the soldiers from a city could be very fun- but how to prevent needing to track 100 different types of equipment?
Training seems like something you could do at an “encampment-“ stand a unit on it and then the city can run a project for specific training, possibly with a much better UI than we have now. (Perhaps the Unit gains a button for training, you click, and options appear around the unit in a radial way to make it easy.)

I suppose you could simplify most eras by having some kind of “basic” trooper- the kind that doesn’t need any substantial equipment or training- and then having eg “iron armor and weapons” in the classical or “steel armor and weapons” in the medieval as what you equip them with to make improved soldiers. It’s not perfect but most people could probably get by with the abstraction that iron weapons includes swords, bows, spears, etc.

I’m envisioning something along the lines of a unit can be levied as a bare Pikeman - peasants with pikes and maybe leather coats- as essentially just costing 1 pop. But you could grab 1 unit of steel weapons and 1 unit of steel armor from your stockpile and equip them into a better pike, or maybe a great swordsman.
or perhaps it would be better to combine armor and weapons into something like “X tier equipment” so you have it more abstracted.

Some units could use up more pieces of equipment than others. (A piece of siege equipment or a warship might use a lot of equipment vs marginally improved peasants.)

Most renaissance units could get by on a mix of steel equipment and something representing Shot.

It would get more complex as you approach the modern era though, unless you come up with a good way to simply vehicles and such.
At that point I would consider a bunch of untrained guys with simple rifles to be the basic unit.

As long as the UI could easily express what training units had, it would work well. There’s also the point of needing to spend production for upgrades versus say, spending gold at an encampment and consuming equipment to do so.

Speaking of which, my earlier remarks about Potentially having empire level production would be really slick for sorting out war equipment. You could use that to top off your stockpiles without needing to devote cities to it.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

@Boris Gudenuf
I have been thinking about your system. I wonder how to implement that kind of concept in a clean way so that players aren’t overwhelmed. I do think the idea that you build equipment and levy the soldiers from a city could be very fun- but how to prevent needing to track 100 different types of equipment?
Training seems like something you could do at an “encampment-“ stand a unit on it and then the city can run a project for specific training, possibly with a much better UI than we have now. (Perhaps the Unit gains a button for training, you click, and options appear around the unit in a radial way to make it easy.)

I suppose you could simplify most eras by having some kind of “basic” trooper- the kind that doesn’t need any substantial equipment or training- and then having eg “iron armor and weapons” in the classical or “steel armor and weapons” in the medieval as what you equip them with to make improved soldiers. It’s not perfect but most people could probably get by with the abstraction that iron weapons includes swords, bows, spears, etc.

I’m envisioning something along the lines of a unit can be levied as a bare Pikeman - peasants with pikes and maybe leather coats- as essentially just costing 1 pop. But you could grab 1 unit of steel weapons and 1 unit of steel armor from your stockpile and equip them into a better pike, or maybe a great swordsman.
or perhaps it would be better to combine armor and weapons into something like “X tier equipment” so you have it more abstracted.

Some units could use up more pieces of equipment than others. (A piece of siege equipment or a warship might use a lot of equipment vs marginally improved peasants.)

Most renaissance units could get by on a mix of steel equipment and something representing Shot.

It would get more complex as you approach the modern era though, unless you come up with a good way to simply vehicles and such.
At that point I would consider a bunch of untrained guys with simple rifles to be the basic unit.

As long as the UI could easily express what training units had, it would work well. There’s also the point of needing to spend production for upgrades versus say, spending gold at an encampment and consuming equipment to do so.

Speaking of which, my earlier remarks about Potentially having empire level production would be really slick for sorting out war equipment. You could use that to top off your stockpiles without needing to devote cities to it.

As usual, you nailed the essential problem right away: how to keep the record-keeping from getting out of hand and Micro-mismanagement from overwhelming everything.

My concept (so far, everything is In Progress) is not to track individual weapons, which would be a screaming nightmare, but to simply track the materials and fabricating techniques required to manufacture the weapons and equipment required for the Units (and Technological Upgrades)

Right now, my Preliminary List of Required Materials is:

Ancient Era:
Basic Resources
Leather, Horn, Bone, Wood, Hide, Sinew
Available from Start, generated by having at least 1 Specialist (Craftsman or Artisan), More is generated by having Improvements: Pastures with Resources: Cattle, Sheep,Horses, Reindeer, Or Huntable Animals: Deer, Bison, Elephant
Basic Metalwork
Copper, Lead, Bronze
Available from Start: generated by having at least 1 Specialist (Craftsman), more from Mines.
Basic Woodwork
Timber Carpentry, Wood forming, Joining
Available from Start, generated by having at least 1 Specialist (Craftsman) AND Worked Forest and/or Jungle Tiles

Classical Era:
Advanced Metalwork
Wrought Iron, simple alloys
Available with Simple Iron Working. more from Iron Mines
Advanced Woodwork
Advanced (Mortice and Tenon) fastening and fabrication
Available with Tech: Carpentry

Post-Classical Era:
Specialized Metalwork
Cast Iron, Steel, Cast Bronze
Available with High Temperature Smelter, Iron Mine, Copper Mine
Specialized Woodwork
Laminating and multiple wood-type fabrication
Requires Timber Resource

Early Modern Era:
Precision Craftwork
Alloy Metals, especially copper, steel alloys
Precision Tools
clockwork, intricate metal alloy fabrication

Late Modern Era:
Industrial Metalwork
metal production in 10s of tons, power tool fabrication
Requires Industrial Quantity Iron source
Precision Metalwork
precision measurement, precision tool fabrication

Post-Modern Era:
Plastics
hydrocarbon plastics
Light Metal Alloys
Light metal compounds and fabrication (aluminum, specialized steels)

Contemporary Era:
Advanced Alloys
metallic, artificial materials alloys
Composites
ceramic, organic, metallic fabrications

Future Era:
Molecular Processing
extreme reprocessing of all materials
Nano-Processing
Programmed energetic processing of all materials

Instead of having to track dozens of weapons, you simply have to track your stockpiles of the materials required to make them, and there are only 17 of those, and all 17 will never be in play at once. In fact, you'd better not have more than 3 - 5 in play at once or you may wind up bringing a sword to a gunfight . . .

 

[Lord Lakely]

There are a couple of things you can add to that as well: modular unit design is a thing in sci-fi themed 4X-games where you can design, build and upgrade your spaceships. A Future Civ game could likewise follow a few base templates based on the unit's weapon, armor and equipment, with the option for players to customize.

For weapons and Armor you could have several base "classes": a few examples
> One-handed Swords (Short, Long, Curved) - Mediocre damage, bonus defence if you have a shield
> Two-handed Swords (Zweihänder, Katana) - Great damage, at the cost of a defence penalty
> Blunt Weapons (Clubs, Maces, War Hammers) - Good at breaking through Armor
> Hack Weapons (Battle Axes, Macahuitls) - Good at breaking Shields, high damage
> Spears (Pikes, Halberds, Billhooks) - Bonus Defence vs Charge attacks, Good offence, more if you have a small shield.
> Bows (Short, Long, Composite): Long range, ineffective agains Armor and Shields
> Missile Weapons (Sling, Javelin): Short Range, powerful hit
> Crossbows: Short-ish range, pierce armor
> Firearms (SMG, Arquebus, Flintlock Musket, Assault Rifle): Short Range, Advanced models ignore Armor (would render Armor obselete)


> Helmets - Reduces the chances of enemies inflicting a Critical Hit
> Leather / Studded Leather - Mediocre protection but good mobility
> Chainmail / Platemail / Scalemail - Good protection but a mobility and maintenance penalty
> Shields - Extra Defence in both Melee and especially ranged combat. Sizes determine the bonii, but large shields may only be used with Swords.
> Uniforms - Fancy uniforms boost morale when worn by soldiers.
> Kevlar Armor / Bulletproof Vest - Protection against Firearms
> Camouflage Suit - Provides a basic stealth value for Recon/Skirmisher class units.

> Horses: Your trusty bread-and-butter mount.
> Camels: Morale and Combat bonus vs Horseback Cavalry, but at the cost of mobility and Health
> Elephants: Morale Penalty for itself and all adjacent enemies, must be combined with Bows or Spears

Unique Units would be set templates using culture-unique weapons. For ex, Hoplites are equipped with a Sarissa and a Hoplon shield, which have different, better effects than their contemporary spear and pelte counterparts.

As far as upgrades go, I would relegate that to re-arming projects: Basically, redesign the template of the unit (or designate an upgrade for obselete unit templates), then complete an upgrade project in a city, its cost and timing based on the amount of obselete units you currently have inside your own territory. For the duration of the project, One obselete unit is "retrained" per turn, retaining its promotions.

^ This might also be where you could chuck in army retinues, such as Junior Officers, Field Medics, Sappers, Anti-Air Brigades, etc, tacked onto the unit regiments themselves as a little extra after their first promotion(s) have been earned.

I am not of the opinion that Weapons and Equipment should be different entities from a mechanical perspective. Upfront Food and Production costs when recruiting a unit accomplish does enough to represent both (an option to store Food and Production in cities using Granary and Warehouse buildings is a long overdue mechanic), with a Production maintenance cost in their home city when left unsupplied. A production maintenance cost, as seen in Alpha Centauri, represents the materials needed to maintain and repair the weaponry and armor. (case in point: the token militaristic faction, the Spartans, have a production MALUS, representing their prioritization of high-quality weaponry. Good arms are expensive and take time to perfect)

Should we advocate for a separation, I would instead suggest making Equipment an extra "health bar", a value which depletes as the unit fights and illicits combat penalties when it drops to zero. Equipment is very important for ranged units since a lack of equipment also represents a lack of ammunition. Restocking requires a nearby Supply Wagon, pillaging an industrial improvement or resting inside a city for a turn.

Likewise, I feel like "morale" should be a value influencing combat, providing bonuses or penalties based on how high the rating is relative to its maximum value. Regiments with good morale have a chance of inflicting "extra" damage while ignoring any damage they take, while those with poor morale will break and panic, disobeying the player's orders. Certain unit types, such as War Elephants, Guerilla's and Flamethrowers would specialize in inflicting Morale Damage, rendering enemy regiments useless without destroying them, saving War Weariness.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Someone should compile these ideas in a list as there are too many good ideas

 

[Sostratus]

Someone should compile these ideas in a list as there are too many good ideas

The list is this thread.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Okay, time to talk Units. Specifically, time to lay out for comment a new way of building and promoting Units compared to the system used throughout the Civ franchise and, apparently, repeated in the Humankind game.

Here are the Basic Principles:
1. In a game encompassing 6000 + years, ALL units are built in 1 Turn until the last Eras of the game. By the Industrial/Late Modern Era, a Battleship or Aircraft Carrier might take 4 - 6 years to build, but even the German and United States Armies in World War Two could field an Infantry or Armored/Panzer Division in a year, and that's the normal minimum game turn length. There is no excuse for taking a couple of centuries to 'build' a Slinger in the Ancient Era.
2. ALL Units require three things to Build them: Population, Weapons, and Equipment. Almost all units require some equipment, in the form of things that don'y directly hurt the enemy (weapons) but are required to keep the unit/army in the field. Even the very efficient Roman Army had a mule for every conturba, or squad of 8 men, to carry the 50 - 80 pound leather squad tent, cooking pot, and other impedimenta. In a Legion comprising 110 squads, that a lot of mules, and their fodder, as 'equipment'.
Weapons and Equipment can be built and stored, because unless they are On Hand in sufficient quantity, a unit cannot be built at all. All such require certain manufactured or natural 'Materials' which change throughout the game: the same basic leather, horn, wood, hide, sinew materials that provide weapons and equipment for Ancient Slingers and Warriors will not equip a Knight, let alone an Antitank Gun.
3. Bonuses or special factors affecting the relationship of Units and weapons to each other are applied by individual units, not by 'Classes'. Thus, a Spearman has a bonus against cavalry, a Swordsman a bonus versus spears or pikes, Greatswords a bonus versus any armored troops, etc, but there is no Class of Melee or Anti-Cav getting a 'blanket bonus'.
4. Which means that Promotions are not by Class either. In fact, Promotions are of two kinds:
Technical Upgrades - as when you add light shields to your slingers, or Face-Hardened Armor to your Tanks, or motorized tractors (equipment) to your Artillery. These change the capabilities of the Units, but do not change their basic nature: the slinger is still a Slinger and not an Archer, the Tank is still a Tank and not a Main Battle Tank, the artillery still shoots the same, but now moves faster.
Training. - This is a 'catch-all' covering both formal training and experience. Formal Training requires Resources, Time, and Faciities - in other words, an investment of your Civ's wealth in various forms. Experience requires that you put your Units to work and, usually, Risk Them.
5. Special Abilities such as the ability to hide from enemies, parachute into battle, or move easily over rough terrain, are also a product of either Training or Experience, frequently coupled with Special Equipment: no one to this day has figured out how to get heavy tanks to move easily over rough terrain, or 'hide' a Battleship. Cuirassiers, as a rule, make lousy Scouts. On the other hand, people who grow up in extreme environments can generally move and fight in them much more easily than people who have to learn all the techniques the Hard Way. Hire or recruit your Mountain Troops from people living next to mountains, not the web-footed folks down in the flatland swamps.

Basic Units.
All of these can be Technologically Upgraded or Trained. Right now, I am assuming a basic 3 possible Technical Upgrades per unit, so this 'basic' list actually encompasses potentially up to 6 times this many units with varying factors and capabilities. For examples, the Technical Upgrades for the Neolithic/Starting, Ancient and Classical Eras are included. The units are divided by Era for convenience, even though Eras as such will not appear in the game except as 'markers'.
* = an Upgrade with Other Effects, like requiring that a unit be Permanently Raised, with additional on-going maintenance costs.
First line shows title of Unit
Second line shows type of unit, type of movement, and type of Equipment
Equipment is also an indicator of relative Maintenance Costs for the units. Heavy Equipment will cost you more, as a rule, and some Technical Upgrades dramatically change the Equipment rating.

So technical upgrades work similiar to Commander: The Great War upgrading system where player spends resource points (there's no 'gold coins' in that game, instead it is called 'resource' or something I can't remember but it works like gold) upgrades existing units with equipments once a research is completed. For example 'Machine Guns' adds defense factor and available upgrades to Infantry and Cavalry (Also in that game. Cavalry fought more like infantryman, the only advantage is that they move faster on campaign map but not on rails (there's no 'dirt road' in that game too! but there's mountaineerings ). right?
mmm then what do you think about Enlightenment Era concepts like Infantry Gun and Horse Artillery? should these be technical upgrades?

^ This one is quite anachronistic because the uniform is Napoleonic but the weapons are a century after (WW1)..

Also city production modes and district systems. I'm really disappointed with Civ6. where Encampment SHOULD add separate production slots for units. tooooooooooooo bad production rule still follows previous games. not only that 'it takes several decades to train ONE unit in antiquity' but also district concepts aren't tapped appropriately.

mmm Military Distrct. Should there be separate class what trains what or the land unit shares the same encampment? (like Infantryman gets Traning Grounds (Barracks is a building). Cavalry gets Ranch (Stable is a building). and Ranged unit gets Yard (Shooting rage is a building)... for example. mmm not a good example or name but this is what i can think of rightnow. If Firaxis gets right about Infantry and Cavalry don't use the same training and lodging facilities then the separate district ??
Should there be 'Civil port' and 'Navy Base' as separate districts? The other annoying Firaxis district concepts is that Harbor is shared BOTH by civilian merchant navy and military Navy. In truth they DON'T
(The other harbor building Firaxis forgot to add is Coastal Battery. this thing can only attack sea tiles and can earn AA ability. because these forts turn its biggest guns towards the open sea and smaller guns inland)
Conclusion on this. One production district. one production slot of this type. and industrial district adds another.

On unit production system. this could make this game abit like Heroes of Might and Magic series (where your army commander can buy units from a city as long as there's unit available to buy, and availability repeats every week but not stackable

Starting/Neolithic Units:
Scout
Recon, Light Foot, No Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Shields (Bonus versus Ranged Fire)
.....Slings/Self Bows (Limited Ranged Fire)
.....Clan Leader in Charge (limited Diplomatic Ability)
Slinger
Short Ranged, Light Foot, Light Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Shields (Bonus versus Ranged Fire)
.....Lead Pellets (Increased Range and Effect)*
.....Side Arm (short spear, dagger, etc - increased Melee factor in Defense Only)
Warrior
Close Combat, Medium Foot, Light Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Shields (Bonus versus Ranged Fire)
.....Non-Metal Body Armor (Bonus in Close Combat Defense)
.....Copper/Bronze Weapons (short axes, daggers, etc - Bonus in Close Combat Attack)

Ancient Era Units:
Archer
Ranged, Medium Foot, Light Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Shields (Bonus versus Ranged Fire)
.....Metal Body Armor (Bonus versus Melee Attack)
.....Composite Bows (Increased Ranged Attack Factor)*
Spearman
Close Combat, Medium Foot, Light Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Metal Body Armor (Bonus against Melee Attack)
.....Composite Shield (Bonus versus Ranged Fire)
.....Auxiliary Weapon (dagger, short sword) (Bonus in Attack versus Infantry)
Chariot
Mounted Combat, Medium Horse, Medium Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Armored Chariot Body (Bonus versus Ranged attack)
.....Scythes (Bonus Attack factor)*
.....Bows (Ranged factor, reduces Mounted Combat factor)
Galley
Naval Close Combat, Light Oared, Medium Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Metal Ram (Bonus in Melee Attack)
.....Lateen Auxiliary Sails (Bonus in Combat)
.....Partial Deck (Cataphractii) (Bonus versus Ranged attack)

Classical Era Units:
Swordsman
Close Combat, Medium Foot, Light Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Metal Body Armor (Bonus against Melee attack)
.....Steel Swords (increased Close Combat factor)*
.....Interlocking Shields (Bonus versus Ranged attack)
Horseman
Mounted Combat, Light Horse, Medium Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Shields (Bonus versus Ranged attack)
.....Metal Body Armor (Bonus in Close Combat) - and becomes Medium Horse
.....Lance (Bonus in Close Combat attack)*
Horse Archer (Special Recruiting Restrictions)
Mounted Ranged, Light Horse, Light Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Metal Body Armor (Bonus against Melee attack)
.....Armored Horse (Bonus versus Ranged attack) - and becomes Medium Horse
.....Asymmetrical Bows (increased Range and Range attack factor)*
Quinquereme (Polyreme)
Naval Ranged, Medium Oared, Medium Equipment
Upgrades:
.....Bolt-Throwing Catapults (Increased Ranged attack)
.....Corvus (Melee attack after firing)*
.....Flammables (Increased Close Combat factors)*

Post Classical Era Units:
Knight
Mounted Combat, Heavy Horse, Medium Equipment
Crossbowman
Ranged, Medium Foot, Light Equipment
Great Swordsman
Close Combat, Heavy Foot, Light Equipment
Pikeman
Close Combat, Medium Foot, Light Equipment
Bombard
Siege Ranged, Super Heavy Draft Team, Heavy Equipment
Cog
Naval Armed Transport, Medium Sail, Medium Equipment

Early Modern Era Units:
Pike and Shot
Close Combat, Medium Foot, Medium Equipment
Dragoon
Mounted Ranged*, Medium Horse, Medium Equipment
Fusilier
Close Combat, Medium Foot, Medium Equipment
Field Cannon
Ranged, Medium Draft Team, Medium Equipment
Howitzer
Ranged, Heavy Draft Team, Medium Equipment
Cuirassier
Mounted Combat, Heavy Horse, Medium Equipment
Light Cavalry
Mounted Combat, Light Horse, Medium Equipment
Carrack
Naval Close Combat, Medium Sail, Medium Equipment
Galleon
Naval Ranged, Medium Sail, Medium Equipment
Frigate
Naval Close Combat, Fast Sail, Medium Equipment
Ship-of-the-Line
Naval Ranged, Heavy Sail, Heavy Equipment

Modern Era Units:
Infantryman
Cose Combat, Medium Foot, Medium Equipment
Cavalry
Mounted Combat*, Medium Horse, Medium Equipment
Tank
Mechanized Combat, Medium Mechanized, Heavy Equipment
Armored Car
Mechanized Ranged, Light Wheeled, Medium Equipment
Artillery
Ranged, Heavy Draft Team, Heavy Equipment
Antiaircraft Artillery
Anti-Air*, Wheeled Towed, Medium Equipment
Antitank Artillery
Anti-Mechanized*, Wheeled Towed, Medium Equipment
Ironclad
Naval Ranged, Medium Steam, Heavy Equipment
Cruiser
Naval Melee, Light Steam, Medium Equipment
Battleship
Naval Ranged, Heavy Steam, Heavy Equipment
Aircraft Carrier
Naval Special Transport, Heavy Turbine, Heavy Equipment
Destroyer
Naval Close Combat, Light Turbine, Medium Equipment
Submarine
Naval Ranged*, Light Turbine, Medium Equipment
Biplane
Air Combat, Single Engine, Medium Equipment
Zeppelin
Ranged Air Combat, Single Engine, Heavy Equipment
Fighter
Air Combat, Single Engine, Medium Equipment
Bomber
Air Ranged Combat, Multi-Engine, Heavy Equipment

Post-Modern Era Units:
Mechanized Infantry
Close Combat*, Light Mechanized, Medium Equipment
Main Battle Tank
Mechanized Combat, Heavy Mechanized, Heavy Equipment
Rocket Artillery
Ranged, Light Mechanized, Heavy Equipment
Antiaircraft Missile
Anti-Air*, Light Mechanized, Medium Equipment
Supercarrier
Naval Special Transport, Heavy Turbine, Heavy Equipment
Missile Frigate
Naval Ranged, Medium Turbine, Medium Equipment
Nuclear Submarine
Naval Ranged*, Medium Turbine, Heavy Equipment
Jet Fighter
Air Combat, Turbojet, Medium Equipment
Jet Strike Aircraft
Air Ranged Combat, Turbojet, Heavy Equipment
Nuclear Bomber
Special Air Ranged, Multi-Jet, Heavy Equipment
Nuclear Missile
Special Air Ranged, Rocket, Heavy Equipment

Contemporary Units:
Light Infantry
Close Combat, Light Wheeled, Medium Equipment
Special Forces
Close Combat*, Light Foot, Light Equipment
Helicopter Gunship
Air Combat Ranged*, Light Turbine*, Heavy Equipment
Cruise Missile
Air Ranged*, Rocket, Medium Equipment

(Possible) Future Era Units:
Satellite Strike Weapon
Ranged*, Space to Ground, Heavy Equipment
Mobile Infantry
Close Combat, Self-Powered*, Heavy Equipment
Autonomous Strike Weapons
Ranged, Air Ground or Space, Medium Equipment

Before you ask, Rifles, Machine guns, Light Antitank Weapons, Drones, Stealth construction and several other 'separate weapons;' are now Technical Upgrades to other units.
Ability to Parachute into battle, be invisible under certain circumstances, and other 'special effects' are the result of specialized Training and, sometimes, Equipment for some of the Basic Units.

And is this technical upgrade includes trucks to permit same movement speeds as tank?
So no Catapults, Rams, Belfry/Helepolises, Trebuchets.. these things became technical upgrade instead??
And why don't you separate 'Renaissance' and 'Early Modern' into separate era? yes you got it right about gunpowder where Bombard came first (This idea is implemented in my mod already!)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

And is this technical upgrade includes trucks to permit same movement speeds as tank?
So no Catapults, Rams, Belfry/Helepolises, Trebuchets.. these things became technical upgrade instead??
And why don't you separate 'Renaissance' and 'Early Modern' into separate era? yes you got it right about gunpowder where Bombard came first (This idea is implemented in my mod already!)

Motorization is a separate and special type of Technical Upgrade, because it will require a major graphic change to the units involved, and because to produce Trucks/motor vehicles in the numbers required also requires major additions to your Civ's Infrastructure. For instance, you cannot mass produce trucks in just any old factory - it requires that you build specific Automobile Plants, and motorizing Units dramatically changes their Supply status as they suddenly require masses of Oil (fuel and lubricants) and a vast increase in spare parts, tires, trained mechanics, and an entirely new Support Structure. It is all an order of magnitude more complex and expensive than just issuing new rifles to your Fusiliers or lances to your Light Cavalry.

Catapults big enough to have Siege effects, and Rams, Sambucae, Towers, etc were none of them Units. They were transported as parts - usually just the metal parts - and built on the spot for the siege action. Therefore, I've come around to the Humankind/Endless Legend idea that they are automatically 'built' when a siege is declared, the type and effects being subject to the technologies achieved at the time.
The first exception is the Bombard, which has to be built and transported, along with a mass of stone or metal shot and powder and other equipment. At that point one starts to speak of a Siege Train that slows down the army accompanying it considerably. The Bombard is, however, the one Siege Only Unit, because they took so long to load and aim (hours) that they were useless against anything more mobile than a city wall: Bombards would have 0 factor against Units but make all Ancient. Classical or Medieval Walls and Castles virtually Obsolete.
Historians speak of a Gunpowder Revolution in warfare, and it's about time 4X Historical Games reflected that.

As said, the Eras are strictly for rough temporal placement: I have no use for them in the game itself.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ And your decision to name second siege unit choice 'Howitzer' and what should it looks like?

And what do you think about my Renaissance Siege Unit i've just made (And i'm doing 'Attack' animation rightnow)... for my mod

is it tooo big to be of the Renaissance era siege guns?

 

[Ryansinbela]

I meant compiled in a concise explanatory list instead of many posts

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

^ And your decision to name second siege unit choice 'Howitzer' and what should it looks like?

And what do you think about my Renaissance Siege Unit i've just made (And i'm doing 'Attack' animation rightnow)... for my mod
View attachment 568795
View attachment 568796
View attachment 568797
View attachment 568798
View attachment 568830

is it tooo big to be of the Renaissance era siege guns?

Very, very nice artwork, but what you've shown is a mortar on a traveling carriage - it wouldn't have been fired from a wheeled carriage like that because the recoil would collapse the whole thing after just a few shots.

Here is an image of "Mons Meg" the Scots Bombard manufactured on the continent in the late 15th century, on a replica of its traveling carriage.

And here is a collection of images from Ian Heath's Armies of the Middle Ages, Volume 1 which covers the 14th - 15th century 'artillery':

Number 149 at the top left shows a typical 'tiller', a fixed wooden platform from which the Bombard would be fired. The other illustrations are all much smaller Light Guns - and Number 152 shows a mortar from England about 1475 CE on a firing platform . Note Number 151, with a swiveling wooden shield to protect the gunners while they loaded, which was hinged to swing up when they were ready to fire. This was used with all sizes of artillery, including Bombards.

Finally, here is the only illustration I could find of one of the early 17th century Howitzers:

In back is a typical medium Field Cannon from about 1660 CE, in front is one of the earliest shorter-barreled Howitzers. The trail had to be dug into a pit to elevate the howitzer enough to fire over walls, but since it was used originally strictly in Siege situations that wasn't a problem - it wasn't expected to be mobile.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ uh? Howtizer not being mobile compared to field guns? Howitzer is fired from wheeled carriage.
I choose 'mortar' design for my siege gun is because. to fit with game rule (requires setup). I saw this adapations on various games like Empire Earth (one and two), and Cossacks 1 and 3. and there are reasons this adapation is used... easier to animate.
Frankly i'm only beginner when making unit animations. actually I converted Civ6 Bombard for this.
About size do you think my siege gun is too big?

^ This is Howitzer. an interim solution i've made while deveopments of Siege Artillery had to be halted because technical problems
- Exporting Error when making 3d model
- Animations.. Wheels went off axel.
eventually the problems is fixed.
This howitzer is very brainless when made. only gunbarrel angles are changed 30 degrees. so when fired it will be 45

And what do you think about my Siege Rifle designs? (Industrial Era siege unit for my mod)

^ Made with a dedicated effort. ruined because of bad skinning and bad animations. I'm considered two options now. making another version based on Bombard just like Mortar with riflings and iron carriage, or animation edits ? anyway is this what Mid-industrial era rifled siege artillery should be?

 

[Gedemon]

@Boris Gudenuf
I have been thinking about your system. I wonder how to implement that kind of concept in a clean way so that players aren’t overwhelmed. I do think the idea that you build equipment and levy the soldiers from a city could be very fun- but how to prevent needing to track 100 different types of equipment?

That was working pretty well in my mod's project, you made buildings in cities based on techs, buildings made and stockpiled various equipment based on available resources, drafting/training units used that equipment, units "healed" by using equipment in their own stock which was replenished over supply lines and were upgraded when they were getting enough better equipment.

It was automated, only action for the player is to construct the buildings in cities, some were creating cheap equipment, some were creating expansive equipment.

With balance you could maintain a small but well equipped army of strong units, but a bigger army would naturally tend to have weaker units, unless you really get a lot of gold and resources to support the equipment production in buildings and afford its price when drafting/training an unit.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

That was working pretty well in my mod's project, you made buildings in cities based on techs, buildings made and stockpiled various equipment based on available resources, drafting/training units used that equipment, units "healed" by using equipment in their own stock which was replenished over supply lines and were upgraded when they were getting enough better equipment.

It was automated, only action for the player is to construct the buildings in cities, some were creating cheap equipment, some were creating expansive equipment.

With balance you could maintain a small but well equipped army of strong units, but a bigger army would naturally tend to have weaker units, unless you really get a lot of gold and resources to support the equipment production in buildings and afford its price when drafting/training an unit.

So is your mod supports RF and GS too?

 

[Gedemon]

Only vanilla and development is stopped, it's not compatible with the current version of the game, hence the "was working"