Ideas for The Perfect 4X Historical Game

That's pity. particularly with that Mod Heavy effort no one ever was. or maybe tried it again.
And I have no plans to implement attritions/supply lines concept (I might consider this later on.). Right now my interests are unit modifications (new units and correcting the existing ones), Tech and civics, and maybe some more buildings and districts. AT THIS MOMENT i'm now working on a new model of Siege Rifles UV map.
 
After leaving the idea and coming back to it, if we're speaking of Boris piece about crops...
I think the idea was that the civilization discovers a crop resource, and after assimilating it (working with it, studying it, or just settling near it) it becomes a possession of that civilization. So now there is, irrevocably, a competence that the civ carries with it, so all of its farms receive the benefit of being "with the knowledge of [crop X]", and these bonuses just accumulate as you make contact with new terrains and crops there.
It makes sense to have vegetable resources work this way, if they are different from animals, and minerals, the last of which I suppose are harder to transport from place to place which can become its own mechanic, and animals which many people say they want to mini-game with the migration of.

Looking at the synopsis above, I wonder if the concept misses on two points. One, perhaps if the civilization expanded, but then fell from war to have to retreat from some locations, if the crop knowledge should be lost? Or at least, because of not having the seeds, and the continuous usage of the crop? And secondly, should there be an interaction with the ecology of different continents to perhaps complicate the utility of simply spreading each and every known crop to every farm everywhere? Can we say, just to keep our options open, that ignoring such complexity would not be too bad of a factual blunder?
 
I like much about Civ. But one thing I find eeh is the combat. I want combat to be less about having 80 units everywhere and having the most combat strength. I want some sort of strategy to be there. Where you can group together a bunch of units. With your combination, focus and formation giving you bonuses and penalties depending on the enemy you meet and their combinations and way of combat (environment, direction). Formations can be a 3x3 map of slots where you pick where each units should be. Archery maybe should be at the back for safety but if someone flanks you those archery unit(s) are going to fall first and so the archery are going to give a reduced damage output that battle for you. Generals can be in the middle.

The focus can be a feature about being offensive, to rush or being defensive. Offensive is useful when you have an edge on the enemy. Rush is useful when you outnumber or have units like horsemen who are up against archers and defensive when the enemy has an edge on you. I don't want to make this too complicated so that you waste 30 min on something that would be a couple of mins in normal Civ.
 
I'm thinking about ways in which a civilization can have multiple leaders. Perhaps...
- Each civilization will have a major bonus. It is always active.
- Each will also have multiple leaders, each with a minor bonus, obviously only one leader and his/her bonus allowed per time. Your first pick is your so-called "traditional" leader.
- Now if unhappiness is too high, your people will demand change, at the end of an old era and beginning of a new (Classical, Medieval, Renaissance, etc.). You can ignore them, in which case the game goes into a "tiebreaker" where you have to complete some task. Like build a "police force" in X turns and destroy all "revolutionary" units in your territory. If you fail the challenge, your "traditional" leader is kicked out and a "revolution" leader which you can't choose steps in. You can also decide to abdicate, in which case you may freely choose another "reform" leader.
- the old leader won't be available again until the next era

example.
America. (since I'm from the US :))...
Major bonus. "Manifest Destiny". Can buy unimproved tiles from adjacent civilizations at double (?) the normal price (Homestead Acts, westward expansion). Similar to what was in Civ 5 and the Vox Populi mod.
Leaders:
-George Washington. "First in War, First in Peace..." Militia units are cheaper to build...assuming this will be a new unit (no standing army existed during the American Revolution except state militias). Government policies/civics don't contribute to any unhappiness only the first time you switch to them (Washington stepped down after 2 terms, setting a precedent)
-Thomas Jefferson. "Empire of Liberty". Scouts on your continent have +1 sight (Lewis & Clark expedition). Ships have more power against barbarian ships (Barbary Wars).
-Abraham Lincoln. "Last Full Measure." Military units exert happiness on your cities when you are at war with one of your cities which seceded or was captured (American Civil War).
-Teddy Roosevelt (similar to what we have in Civ 6 now). "Bully Pulpit". Parks have +1 appeal (Antiquities Act of 1906, national parks, etc.). Units are stronger when defending city states on your own continent ("big stick" diplomacy).
-Franklin Roosevelt. "Four Freedoms". More housing and happiness, but less gold, in cities (New Deal, like the policy in Civ 6 now). Will always maintain a higher than normal favorability rating with civilizations if they're at war with the same enemy (Roosevelt and US in World War 2).
- Dwight Eisenhower. "New Look" (not sure what else to call it). Building roads or railroads with engineers is cheaper than normal (Interstate Highway System). Upgrading a unit will be cheaper if you are the first player to do so (the move to building more nuclear bombers and such after the Korean War was called the "New Look")

positives, negatives, other considerations:
so each leader would ideally have a domestic and foreign component to their leadership style. These might incorporate some of the policy cards we have now. Like "New Deal".
players will be encouraged to try different leaders to supplement the civilization's major bonus. You will be locked in for that era, but you may also change in the next era.
with 4, 5, 6 or so leaders for each civilization, voice acting and animation will be very limited, however.
 
I might have to get creative with some. But my general idea would be to combine some civilizations who have not as many famous leaders (compared to your European and East Asian civs) into one, while still retaining the same unique units and buildings, and also eliminating the need for more city-states just to cover all of them. Like:

Austria, Hungary, and the Habsburg Monarchy.
"South Slav nations": Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, etc.
the various Italian city-states
various "Plains Indians"
"Bronze-age Mesopotamia", before Persia, including: Babylon, Assyria, Sumeria, Akkadia
"Celts"
 
After leaving the idea and coming back to it, if we're speaking of Boris piece about crops...
I think the idea was that the civilization discovers a crop resource, and after assimilating it (working with it, studying it, or just settling near it) it becomes a possession of that civilization. So now there is, irrevocably, a competence that the civ carries with it, so all of its farms receive the benefit of being "with the knowledge of [crop X]", and these bonuses just accumulate as you make contact with new terrains and crops there.
It makes sense to have vegetable resources work this way, if they are different from animals, and minerals, the last of which I suppose are harder to transport from place to place which can become its own mechanic, and animals which many people say they want to mini-game with the migration of.

Looking at the synopsis above, I wonder if the concept misses on two points. One, perhaps if the civilization expanded, but then fell from war to have to retreat from some locations, if the crop knowledge should be lost? Or at least, because of not having the seeds, and the continuous usage of the crop? And secondly, should there be an interaction with the ecology of different continents to perhaps complicate the utility of simply spreading each and every known crop to every farm everywhere? Can we say, just to keep our options open, that ignoring such complexity would not be too bad of a factual blunder?

The historical examples that spring to mind:
1. When agriculture first spread up the Danube Valley into central Europe from Anatolia, it spread with crops from Anatolia: the farmers didnt arrive saying "I've got the idea to plant and harvest crops!" They came with: "I know how to plant, harvest, process, and cook Wheat!"
2. When immigrants from Russia (some of them transplanted Volga Germans, infact) arrived in the Dakotas of the USA in the late 19th century, they brought the seeds for a breed of wheat that would grow in higher latitudes, and so started the major wheat growing area in Dakota, Nebraska, and similar areas. So, they came with their seeds, and they were seeds uniquely adapted to a climate similar to the one they'd left back home.
3. Northern China and all the civilizations that started there since the Neolithic had agricultural systems based on wheat or millet, not rice. Rice was in central and southern China, and very few places grew both rice and the other grains until the Song Dynasty of Medieval China, when rice varieties were developed that could grow further north and, more importantly, varieties were developed that ripened fast enough that in the south and central regions of China hey could harvest two crops a year - resulting in a massive population boom in late Medieval - Renaissance China.

So, once a people starts with a particular 'staple' crop, they tend to stick with it, and will tend to settle in areas that support that crop and only slowly will adopt another one, unless the advantages are immediate and obvious: like the adoption of the Potato in northern Europe in the 16th century, which increased the caloric yield from the same marginal soil by two or three times - they literally could not afford Not to grow the potato! Or the adoption of rice in China outside its original 'homeland' in the south, because, while labor-intensive, it produced far more food/acre than the wheat and millet it replaced - where it could replace them, since there are still broad areas of northern China where rice simply cannot be grown efficiently and other crops still predominate.

And, by the way, in studying both migrations and Neolithic groups, there is no indication of agricultural knowledge of a particular crop being lost anywhere, unless they moved into an area so different in climate/terrain that the original crop knowledge was worthless - and then they quickly developed knowledge of new crops, because the agricultural understanding remained.

Probably the closest thing to 'losing agriculture' might be the Kiowa Native Americans, who were growing corn along the river bottoms in modern Oklahoma and northern Texas until they got horses, and then they became nomadic buffalo hunters. Not because they 'forgot' agriculture, but because hunting bison from horseback was a much less labor intensive way to provide food (and leather, hide, sinew, bone, and other useful materials) than grubbing maize for a season at a time. Much later, when American government negotiators offered to settle the tribe on reservations and teach them how to farm, they couldn't understand why the Kiowa started laughing at them: the phrase "Been There, Done That!" hadn't been coined yet, but would have been appropriate.
 
Eh? Checking HUMANKIND project and what I've found is that its devteam AGREES with Firaxis on how era is sorted out. except that they don't call an era after medieval 'Renaissance' but they chose 'Early Modern' instead. They seemed to agree that Industrial Era begins at 1700.
... Spain in that game also has Conquistadores but functioned as 'explorers and soldiers' rather than musketeer repalcement. https://scontent.fbkk5-5.fna.fbcdn....=e5c521d045e50d9c6a07033a7bb7bb82&oe=5F9D1BE5
 
Comparisons between Civ and Humankind are a good way to get a better undertanding of the potentials of 4X Historical Games. In fact, it was mulling the comparisons that got this Thread started!

And @mdl5000, great post! Two things I'd consider:

1. Make Leaders progressive within the same game. That is, some kind of trigger that allows/demands that you change Leaders and perhaps the change would be in a specific sequence. As in, in your examples, you could not choose Teddy Roosevelt before Lincoln or Jefferson, but since Washington and Jefferson were contemporaries, you could choose either one of them to start. For older Civilizations that span more than just 2 - 3 Eras, perhaps have 2 or more potential leaders per Era that can be chosen, OR any unchosen leader from a previous Era, but you can't 'skip ahead' and, say, pick up Napoleon I for Medieval or Classical France.

2. I've posted this a couple of times before, but to avoid the graphics Resource Sinkhole that is animated Leaders, I'd rather see the interface between Leaders (specifically between the Player and the AI Leaders) be an Audience Room in which you meet with Diplomats or Ministers of the Great One - who is represented by a large painting on the wall, or a monumental statue glimpsed in the room next door, or even in a small shrine in the corner (God Kings). The clothing of the ministers/diplomats might change through the Eras, but only a still depiction of the Ruler/Leader has to change, which would save a huge amount of graphic time and effort for places where it makes more sense from a game play perspective - like having Units for each Civ be uniformed specific to that Civ: I want my red-cloaked Classical Spartans with red lambdas on their shields, Industrial Era white-coated Austrians versus French in Blue with red trousers and kepis, etc. We are missing far too much variety on the actual game map because too many graphic resources are being sucked into Leader animations that everyone keys through after the first few renditions or, by playing the Civ, never sees at all.
 
The part of Civ series that gets me going is the simple map-centred mechanics. Military operations exist on tiles. Supply bases and fortifications exist on tiles. Terrain advantage is part of the tiles. You can set up a difficult fortress city 1000 years in advance by settling on the right tile.

A game that is more committed to a grand strategy basis of gameplay might do away with the tiles, to just having map zones and military presence that's just a score, but I will always look to Civ for my fun because I get to plan around battles for tiles.

To me, that is the core way that military and economy get to intersect for the gameplay. The fertility of the land influences your settlement decision, as well as land development. But terrain impacts defensibility and will motivate you to claim certain tiles with military presence, to have advance warning or just to deny positioning before an assault. This is from the defensive side of things; Amplitude's Humankind has some sort of 'outpost' settlement, which plays the role of military forward supply , and so there is that angle to consider too. I think, despite my love for the military part of the game, and affinity for winning my games with that skill, that the "perfect 4X historical game" would be about society and its development - an approach which makes the emergence of an armed caste something that would be computed as such. I hunger for systems that start with the Civ3(2?) idea of persuading the republic to authorize a war, and then blow that out in scale. Again, it looks like Humankind is ambitious about being the shaping of your culture as gameplay.

The thing about the tiles mechanical core is it makes the design of things seem easy in a way. We just have to allow the right elements to interact with each other and everything technical, like balance, can be configured in a data file. In a mod file. So, about the military part of the game, I want supply to be something you have to worry about, up to an extent. And I want militaries to be able to pillage or besiege cities as situated, extended locations on tiles - this, they already do, and in Civ6 you have the typed plunder bonuses for improvements and districts, so that's a plus.

I want the quality of life fix to the damnable 1 unit per tile limitation. Tactical games also have 1upt but they include mechanics that prevent "Absolute" chokes from emerging, such as an order to merge units to restore HPs. Actually, the game I want does have X units per tile, and the magic number is 10. Remember Civ V, which had 10hp units? Consider allowing up to ten units on a tile, and reprise the combat rule where every fight destroys at least one of the participants. But don't stop there. I think what became noxious about stacks was the way that the initiative belongs to the attacker, the player who gets to make all their moves on their turn, with no interruption, and with the benefit of chaining conditional decisionmaking upon the successes or failures of that turn. I believe that stack warfare should be programmed to engage the stack with the stack, instead of a series of unit-to-unit engagements. Keeping this simple would be an important priority, as we must remember we are only trying to make the players pressured to care about certain details, the details that I believe the player wants the (military) game to be about. Supply, and control of the fertile tiles for the settlements.

If we got careless about stack combat, we might end up creating a de facto unit workshop system, where we add bows to spears and forget about the mob we create a la carte. That isn't what I want. I want military engagements, on the strategic level, to have options of risk or delay or whatever that interplay with the international objectives for the player's civ, and also to interplay with the addition of new weapons (of course), and, this is the big one, to interplay with technological progress so that we can introduce the idea of Doctrine to the game. My friend is not a history buff but he tells me that about what happens in the into-Atomic period are advances not of any kind of materials science, but of military doctrine so that kinds of engagements are possible that were not conceivable before. So we have a basic idea for a military order to look like this:
  • Players give orders for maneuvers to military stacks, which key off of terrain, defender standing orders, and doctrinal know-how for their effectiveness.
The unit-of-meaning for the player to decide, is how to defend or reposition at tiles, so that we have a kind of fighting that is still easy to grasp at a surface level, but allow players to make a few more kinds of decisions that concern the domestic side of gameplay, at all of its stages, settling, developing, and maximizing.


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The other thing I feel strongly about is demographics visibility. I think it's true that the game needs to have some way that is public-public (i.e., everyone knows-that-you-know) of tracking the most successful player, so that you can see yourself losing as it happens (replays would be ideal but it seems memory intensive? but you have to be able to take a lost game and look at what others did right.) But at the same time, I don't like the way that, for example, in Civ 5 you can, depending on things, have exact knowledge of critical things like hammers to hammers for deciding on the midgame stretch. This is where espionage comes in. I pine for Civ4's espionage points system. If we could streamline the per-civ sliders (and fix the slider haywire glitch), this provides a system for observing rival player status which also interacts with an individual Spies system.

Do people like controlling spies in Civ6? I think they do, but they need to have the right kinds of missions for it to be fun. Civ5 was limited but was clean. However, there is a logic issue with Constabularies merely slowing down opportunities to counterspy. Civ4 and Civ6 claimed to be conscious of the poison problem, where you just sabotage and sabotage, throwing off everyone's careful math, producing more grief than enjoyment. I don't think I want espionage to be a subgame that is super powerful, but this goes toward my bigger philosophy for a "Perfect 4X game" to be an Ecosystem of Rivalries.

In my view, the perfect game has a few ways and means within it for you to try to prove you are number 1, and by going down some of those roads, you get to reap a benefit for outplaying your opponent there. But these multiple systems do not all make for decisive victory. You can play a game with a weak espionage element, and you would lose some things to an espionage specialist, but you get to recoup in the main through an excellence in another capacity. I don't know much else about bringing this vision into existence, but I would think that the WRONG way to do it is by having each subsystem run "refrigerated", with its own power source. I mean, once you unlock spies in Civ5, you have spies, so you use them! Once you have a source of +:c5faith: , you start pooling it, so you have a religion game! The ecosystem vision would need to have more of where special subsystems are bought with a common resource, instead of just powering themselves. I could also note, a real time game can balance these things because of the common attention resource, but a turn based game instead must provide a direct, and deliberate, limitation on such "perfect optimization". You have to pay with giving up some other effort. However, instead of being solvable with an Excel spreadsheet and patience, it becomes more of a gambit interaction that depends on some of the hidden information of your opponent's choices - and their skill.
 
2. I've posted this a couple of times before, but to avoid the graphics Resource Sinkhole that is animated Leaders, I'd rather see the interface between Leaders (specifically between the Player and the AI Leaders) be an Audience Room in which you meet with Diplomats or Ministers of the Great One - who is represented by a large painting on the wall, or a monumental statue glimpsed in the room next door, or even in a small shrine in the corner (God Kings). The clothing of the ministers/diplomats might change through the Eras, but only a still depiction of the Ruler/Leader has to change, which would save a huge amount of graphic time and effort for places where it makes more sense from a game play perspective - like having Units for each Civ be uniformed specific to that Civ: I want my red-cloaked Classical Spartans with red lambdas on their shields, Industrial Era white-coated Austrians versus French in Blue with red trousers and kepis, etc. We are missing far too much variety on the actual game map because too many graphic resources are being sucked into Leader animations that everyone keys through after the first few renditions or, by playing the Civ, never sees at all.
^Thisis what I really agree with. Diplomacy works on dialogues between envoys and diplomats and less on a personal meetings between Kings and Emperors (it rarely happens). Diplomatic features under current Civ engines aren't work well for Italy with... if using existing engines. should have two or three leaders. (One is Duke of Venice, (Equivalent to modern day President of the Republic), other might be Milan or Florence leader, and the third is Papacy (Can astride Romans as well. particularly in the later days). If Papacy leads, negotiation scene should have him a 'cloaked figure' ... just my Idea rightnow.

And Era Sortings, what's your Idea how eras between 1,400 - 1,900 should be?
 
I'm also thinking about borders. Territory. Territory is a concept at the intersection of terrain and nation. What role should it play in the game? And how do you get it? It seems the answers here call on us to answer that other pressing issue, which is the way, not yet implemented, for the core mechanics to guarantee that every square mile is settled, eventually if not quickly. Attempts to balance explosive expansion have left us with gamist costs and an entire grammar of "tall and wide" that deludes us into thinking it is objectively real. Well it's not.

To clarify before we go. Territory... one concept is border as international agreement. But Civ is intermingling borders with something like, the settlement of the terrain itself. If you have not 'spread' into the tile, then no one is there. You have to build up something to 'move in' to the tile, even while you're still miles away from another nation. Is this coherent, or is it a gamist fiction? Again, while I'm not a simulationist to the extreme, I want to try asking how far we can go with realism here , to ask about the gameplay tradeoffs from a position of having a prototype in hand.
So, I want to leave the idea of the lines between countries to the side as a non-central feature to add to a diplomacy system. I want to understand the idea of settling and *claiming* land.

There's something unsatisfying about culture bombs, such as with Civ V's citadels. Even without the culture bomb, there's also something unsatisfying about the citadel intrinsic damage that depends on whose territory it exists in. What is really flipping if a tile moves from your colors to mine? Can that kind of thing happen in a turn? This question leads us to ask about city flipping.

Since we have deconstructed cities a bit, and we are basing our game on the idea of populations and networks, there is definitely some room to design annexation as a game event. In what way have peoples, who have had their settlements conquered, actually become assimilated into the imposing nation? The gameplay of an unrest period, followed by a stint as a puppet, and then an indistinguishable core integration, has some possible variable values that raise eyebrows, or make us squirm a bit. City razing is another issue. I think with city razing you want to just balance the demands of players on both sides of it. The conqueror wants some freedoms to avoid administration penalties - or perhaps the roleplaying freedom to maraud and massacre. The besieged player just wants his two chances to reverse a sloppy occupation. One is in the field, to regain the city before the fires. Two is in the city, as the resistance of its patriots, either insurgents or some other kind of rebellion. As I understand, Civ has never extended its concepts to the second of these. Loyalty flipping does not come close to it in my view... it's a mechanical mess. A first brush at designing a city-razing rule seems to me to be just, make it take two turns to raze? And have the city [population], or whatever is the city's growth, go down at start of turn. Also, require a military action to perform the raze.

In Civ4, culture is deleted when you capture a city. It feels believable on the one hand, until you, as I said, question what culture is even doing expanding borders. If the use of surrounding land is a matter of settled peoples forming resource networks, those connections are not lost just because of a siege, but rather more likely, because of pillaging, or diseconomies of the defending side. It felt right that the marauder had to reestablish... something after 'moving in', but that's as far as that goes I think.


I have toyed with a certain idea, where Food is what grows borders. The idea is, settlers and border growth are treated as the same thing, one must stop to outfit the other. The city's growth could depend, then, moreso on a rating of health, which - as a new civ concept - could be modulated in whatever way we want simulationism to reign. Hard caps that come from city buildings, trickling in through scientific advancement... resource bonuses.... maybe unique wonders to make some cities into exceptions for size. I understand there's a lot of call for new rules to this part of city development, and for plagues to be a factor. I'm all for it. Food still wants to be in the game, and I enjoy the chemistry of doing as Boris says, with travel distances for food. A city having an absolute core of 1-range to harvest food is a splendid way to make city positioning involve more selectiveness in the eXpansion phase.

I have hardly stuck to the point, but, this is where the ideas have been stuck in my head for years. I just... want an answer, a design, for -how-, with what, a city lays claim to its further tiles. Is it at the cost of a basic resource? Is it something that can go slow or fast depending on some quality? Unhinged from a simulationist reason, the gameplay seems to want for territorial expansion to be ... relatively slow. In contrast, we are looking for the way that the mechanics guarantee that every square inch of land is SETTLED by a certain date. If people can live somewhere they will... but as long as the game makes you -pay- for adding a settlement, this will come to a point where it is not true, and these lands on the margin will be blank. I know that the Civ4 players tout they had the perfect solution to this, which was that young cities are bad but they develop to pay for themselves. Let's still brainstorm though. I know of one idea that I hear a lot, which is that there can be core cities and non-core cities? The idea is, some settlements will be just "merely" ethnically yours, but the main gameplay benefits are derived from core cities? It's just a starting point. I am curious more to explore a variation on that idea, which is just, designing the game for more of population behaviour to be hands-off. If we look at the core/non-core city idea, we also see the same idea as what I mentioned was something Civ has not done with wars, which is represent an in-city insurgency. Both concepts look for ways that .. erm, how to put it... ways that the player controls a broader definition of his people, but perhaps in a more confined respect. I think there's a cool design at the end of this line of thought.
 
I have hardly stuck to the point, but, this is where the ideas have been stuck in my head for years. I just... want an answer, a design, for -how-, with what, a city lays claim to its further tiles. Is it at the cost of a basic resource? Is it something that can go slow or fast depending on some quality? Unhinged from a simulationist reason, the gameplay seems to want for territorial expansion to be ... relatively slow. In contrast, we are looking for the way that the mechanics guarantee that every square inch of land is SETTLED by a certain date. If people can live somewhere they will... but as long as the game makes you -pay- for adding a settlement, this will come to a point where it is not true, and these lands on the margin will be blank. I know that the Civ4 players tout they had the perfect solution to this, which was that young cities are bad but they develop to pay for themselves.

Well, in some sense, I think taking a page from past suggestions on this board to subdivide continents into regions, or Humankind's approach to breaking up the map into chunks, does offer a great compromise between realism and gameplay. (In the latter example, my understanding is that settling a city claims its little region for you, but you can build districts anywhere in the region.) A settlement will almost inherently extend its reach up to some natural boundaries, Like a shoreline, mountain ridge, river bank, etc. What I miss from civBE was the idea that you don't just have a city the second a settler plops down, you start with an outpost. I think having this "Outpost" as a sort of improvement you can use to extract resources in unclaimed territory, and weakly claim a region, would add a great amount of strategic flexibility for gameplay. Perhaps you are a Russia type empire, and you have put cities down at the key places, with outposts giving control of vast swaths of territory connecting them. Or maybe you are in a "conquest of the new world" situation and they are more like border forts.
But either way, having this proto stage of control over a territory would finally let players have "the hinterlands" or have a way to express a tundra oil field that doesn't deserve the full city.
In this sort of scheme, having a city in a region would let you improve/exploit any tile in it, but being able to harness all that output would still require a build up of population.

I personally think you could do better than what humankind is proposing, and allow multiple cities in one region, or have a cottage/village/town style "progression" (I think the distinction between districts and improvements is almost too stark in civ6 and humankind) that would naturally lead to cities springing up. In fact, if you said something like
  • Outposts are needed to claim a territory and place improvements in it
  • tiles can only be exploited by adjacent city centers, districts, or "town" improvements, or directly by farms and fishing boats
  • only cities can build districts and collect yields
Then you'd have a setup where "core regions" would have actual cities, and frontier regions would simply be outpost controlled areas with some towns next to resource nodes.
Just a thought.
 
In other Threads long ago we dscussed Non-City Settlements on the map and their potential. Basicaly, we need more 'granularity' in settlement and exploitation options.

Right now, we have:
Civ VI: Nothing - City
Humankind: Nothing - Outpost - City

This is pretty bare bones when you consider the IRL options.

What is percolating through my thoughts recently is a combination of the region exploitation system of Humankind with the more Free Settlement system of Civ - because no matter how you draw the regional boundaries, they are another artificiality in a game that is going to have more than enough of that no matter what you do.

So, perhaps a system in which you can establish an Improvement to exploit a resource anywhere, without regard to your Civ's boundaries, but if established outside of the border, you have to also establish an 'Outpost' to get control over that single tile with the resource. In other words, you could 'reach out' to establish presence far away from any of your cities, but it would cost more, and the cost would increase the further away you were. That would also establish a mechanism for the 'Colonization Era' in the game: the cost of establishing your first outpost on another trans-oceanic continent or island would be Massive until you had the financial and transport technologies of the late Renaissance/early Industrial Eras.

Such an exploitation Outpost would grow naturally: you have, basically, both the workers and their families living on the tile, and as they demand more 'services' a village, hamlet, town should grow up there. I could foresee a set of positive and negative factors that would affect the growth rate: nearby barbarians or other Civs, regular Trade Routes/roads, a protective UNit on site ("garrison") terrain and climate factors. At the extreme, it might be virtually impossible to establish any kind of outpost away from a supporting city in Tundra or Desert - or Rainforest if the rest of your Civ is not in the rainforest and so familiar with the problems related to it - until late in the game.
 
In other Threads long ago we dscussed Non-City Settlements on the map and their potential. Basicaly, we need more 'granularity' in settlement and exploitation options.

Right now, we have:
Civ VI: Nothing - City
Humankind: Nothing - Outpost - City

This is pretty bare bones when you consider the IRL options.

What is percolating through my thoughts recently is a combination of the region exploitation system of Humankind with the more Free Settlement system of Civ - because no matter how you draw the regional boundaries, they are another artificiality in a game that is going to have more than enough of that no matter what you do.
So when did the 'clearly defined borders' concept established? Was it after Treaty of Westphalia that ended Thirty-years War defined the concepts of borders? I don't think so because the Chinese 'Great Wall' was the first instances how borderlines are clearly defined. where the walls itself is.

Ironically the same concepts hadn't been ported to Southeast Asia until Latter half of 19th Century with arrival of two Empires: British, and French. it was when ill-defined 'borders' had to be defined and Siam did implement the same solutions Portuguese did two or three centuries ago, the use of 'bannermen' journeyed all the way from Bangkok and surrounding cities well within Bangkok domain into the places like Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, Nan, and so on particularly next to mountain ranges and big rivers (Salawin) so British and French would recognize the Siamese claims. Before then, city limits themselves matters most. Determining how powerful an empire could be was that to check allegiances of cities located several ten kilometers away from the Seat. Lanna Kingdom itself was a very examples how pre-Colonial era Southeast Asian political geography was; shifted between Burmese and Siamese powers until King Chulalongkorn made a successful annexations early in his reign.

So, perhaps a system in which you can establish an Improvement to exploit a resource anywhere, without regard to your Civ's boundaries, but if established outside of the border, you have to also establish an 'Outpost' to get control over that single tile with the resource.
That's civ3 'colony' actually. But not with other players expanded to this resource plot.
In other words, you could 'reach out' to establish presence far away from any of your cities, but it would cost more, and the cost would increase the further away you were. That would also establish a mechanism for the 'Colonization Era' in the game: the cost of establishing your first outpost on another trans-oceanic continent or island would be Massive until you had the financial and transport technologies of the late Renaissance/early Industrial Eras.

Such an exploitation Outpost would grow naturally: you have, basically, both the workers and their families living on the tile, and as they demand more 'services' a village, hamlet, town should grow up there. I could foresee a set of positive and negative factors that would affect the growth rate: nearby barbarians or other Civs, regular Trade Routes/roads, a protective UNit on site ("garrison") terrain and climate factors. At the extreme, it might be virtually impossible to establish any kind of outpost away from a supporting city in Tundra or Desert - or Rainforest if the rest of your Civ is not in the rainforest and so familiar with the problems related to it - until late in the game.

And about city foundings. Do you still agrees with settler being a person to do so as in Civ series?

And the cityscape concepts. I think Civ6 is abit wrong on this. and this includes city walls where districts other than city centers and encampments didn't get walls and with it. ranged attacks by troops that manned the walls.
 
Newtonian Physics.
 
Some good ideas, some ok ideas and some ideas that I think will overcomplicate and/or discourage more players.

Just to put in my two penn'orth about Food bonus tiles: I see them as being an abstract to indicate that particular tile is significantly better suited to growing certain foodstuffs, with the combination giving rise to the benefits received. As noted, it doesn't make sense that you only have 1 tile in your empire growing Wheat or Rice. It makes more sense that you have Wheat and Rice growing on most tiles, but those tiles are growing 2-3 times the amount.

There was a suggestion about balanced diets. Whilst I agree this would be nice to have in one sense, is it a reasonable addition? A civ tile is supposed to be large, so it's not unreasonable to assume that a "farm" upgrade is he equivalent of turning that tile into a farming region, similar to certain areas of many countries (Lincolnshire in the UK, for example). As such, you would have a variety of usage in that region - some growing cereals, others having orchards, still others livestock and a few looking to other crops - thus covering the balanced diet.


Moving on, I'd like to point to Cividlisation 2, a browser game derived from various aspects of Civilisation. It's not perfect - the last time I played it was the beginning of the year when it was still unpolished and quite buggy, yet I feel there were one or two concepts that could carry over to this project.

As for those who seem to want ultra micro-management down to the atomic level, may I direct their attention to Dwarf Fortress whose developer appears to have that very goal?
 
I'd like the perfect 4X game to have the following system of territory control:
1) The world is divided on provinces, you cannot settle everywhere. That solution is wonderful for balancing the map, AI, and preventing ugly borders.
2) You claim the province when you found a city. You can freely choose its location within the province.
3) Colonization is a special action of a central government. First, you need a population surplus, a money surplus, and some political power points. Then you make one of your cities generate a Colonist (that's important because the culture, religion etc of mother city impacts the future province). Generating a colonist does actually cost a population point.
4) You may only send a colonist to the province which is adjacent to one of those you already own, OR to a coastal province - if you have sea ports. This prevents ugly borders, forward settling, and generally makes nice, organic borders.
5) If you however settle oversea colony which is outside a certain range, your new province is marked as a "Colony" - it is slightly more independent thinking, which has its bonuses and downsides.
6) In fact, distance from the capital is a significant factor, making more faraway cities more rebellious... It also is a good reasons to sometimes change your capital to more central location, like in real life.
7) Technically speaking, you control provinces, of which cities are merely "capital, largest cities". This has its flavour, for example the province may contain smaller one tile settlements.
8) Every province you have may be ruled directly or be autonomous, ruled through a governor. Sometimes the latter option is actually a better idea - you leave some decisions to the locals, appeasing them greatly. The further cities from the capital, the more tempting the indirect rule is. Past certain range from capital (decided by level of technology) you HAVE to rely on indirect rule if you wanna govern at all.
9) Governors can sometimes generate opportunities and problems, namely they have their own section of random events with hilarious consequences.
10) Oversea colonies are incredibly profitable in the exploration era (1500s) but also incredibly rebellious in the industrial era (1800s), so its a high risk game. On top of that, provinces lying very far from the motherland for a long time may develop their own ethnic group different from the mother one!
11) All empires are goddamn volatile and have to constantly struggle with problems of autonomy and rebellion. Maintaining a stable, big empire is an achievement in itself. Civil wars of mamy different kinds are a regularity, and new factions arise from older ones. The game is designed around being challenging, but satisfying. The very survival of your civilization is an achievement in itself.
12) Population of every city does care about ethnicity, religion, low taxes, economic prosperity, stability and proper infrastructure. The population protests, and also may migrate to more prospering provinces.
13) Different governments slightly modify relationships between the capital and provinces. There are huge differences between feudal kingdom, merchant republic, absolute monarchy, republic and autocracy, for example. Late game division between different stages of capitalist and communist civs is very profound for the gameplay.
14) There are some profound mechanics devoted to the culture of pops, ethnic minorities, tolerance, assimilation, and even emergence of new cultures.

THE FINAL RESULT
You end up with a world of organic looking empires (not border gore of civ6) which are in the constant fluctuation of rose and fall, golden ages and dark ages, stability and rebellion. Old empires may reemerge, new empires may rise, ethnicities may change, there is a colonialism and postcolonialism. You get much, much more interesting and realistic world simulator than civ6, which has boring eternally stable empires and a ton of unclaimed land by the 20th century.

Oh, let me add one more thing, though going beyond the subject of territorial control:
15) The number of factions in the game does constantly fluctuate. In the beginning there are only six of them: Sumer, Egypt, Harappa, Shang, Caral and Olmec. New factions may appear in the game roughly at the time of their historical arrival - they are unlocked by a tech progress and
- old civs may turn into new cultures
- if not taken after some time, new cultures may appear on the map and become major players.
 
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