Ideas for VP changes & discussion

[pineappledan]

I get it - you like your ideas

I do! Though the TR distance modification was @BiteInTheMark’s idea.

I’m more used to the 4UC discussion now, where everything is much more up in the air. Looks like i’ll Have to re-learn humility.

designing a UA is much different than teaching an AI when to (or not to) focus on a policy/building/belief.

That’s true, I haven’t got much experience coding for the AI. Obviously you know what is and is not possible better than most of us. It is disheartening to see ideas dismissed, not because they are bad or untenable, but because they would take too much effort.

 

[Gazebo]

I do! Though the TR distance modification was @BiteInTheMark’s idea.

I’m more used to the 4UC discussion now, where everything is much more up in the air. Looks like i’ll Have to re-learn humility.

That’s true, I haven’t got much experience coding for the AI. Obviously you know what is and is not possible better than most of us. It is disheartening to see ideas dismissed, not because they are bad or untenable, but because they would take too much effort.

As I said, I'm all for balancing, but there are so many underused/unused building and policy effects out there as-is, we really don't need to add any more.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Hagia Sophia: Change from temple to church sounds good, but this change is maybe a bit too strong, leading to the result, you buy every missionary in the holy city now with 3 charges.

@BiteInTheMark brings up an excellent point. Churches really are a bit of a 1-hit wonder aren't they? You only need 1 on empire and you can simply funnel your missionary purchases through that city. Maybe that kills that idea, or maybe it's fine. I don't know

It seems there has been a lot of resistance to my proposed change to Big Ben. Is there general resistance to the idea that there even needs to be a wonder that gives a GMerchant, or is there another wonder which people think would be more appropriate?

 

[Ziad]

Great Lighthouse

 

[pineappledan]

wayyy too early, lol. Can you imagine if Venice rushed it?

Added a proposal for Brandenburg Gate change.

 

[infidel88]

@BiteInTheMark brings up an excellent point. Churches really are a bit of a 1-hit wonder aren't they? You only need 1 on empire and you can simply funnel your missionary purchases through that city. Maybe that kills that idea, or maybe it's fine. I don't know

Churches no longer do that.

 

[Deadstarre]

Churches no longer do that.

churches lost 3 spread to missionary? dont remember seeing it in a patch note

 

[Y.O.]

I like air units getting ranged as a finisher for imperialism. Makes getting to logistics easier, so I'm definitely in favor of it. I would like to see a better opener and scaler though. I think adding production to military buildings for a scaler would be nice. Then you can move the military bonus to Regimental tradition. Not sure how balanced it would be though. For an opener, steal from the vikings and increase the amount you get from pillaging tiles with land units. Also, the +2 pop per city is the best part about resettlement IMO. Great ideas overall tho, even the ones that add new code.

 

[CrazyG]

The Great Lighthouses +1 movement is pretty key for dromons. The difference between having and not having it for early naval warfare is huge, and I like that.

I can agree there are more movement bonuses than needed. You could remove a later on instead (treasure fleet gives supply and +1 movement, right? Its very powerful)

 

[pineappledan]

Churches no longer do that.

        <Row>
            <Type>BUILDING_CHURCH</Type>
            <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_CHURCH</BuildingClass>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_CHURCH</Description>
            <Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_CHURCH_TEXT</Civilopedia>
            <Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_CHURCH_STRATEGY</Strategy>
            <Help>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_CHURCH_HELP</Help>
            <GreatWorkSlotType>GREAT_WORK_SLOT_MUSIC</GreatWorkSlotType>
            <GreatWorkCount>1</GreatWorkCount>
            <ConquestProb>100</ConquestProb>
            <ArtDefineTag>TEMPLE</ArtDefineTag>
            <ConversionModifier>-10</ConversionModifier>
            <MinAreaSize>-1</MinAreaSize>
            <ExtraMissionarySpreads>1</ExtraMissionarySpreads>
            <ReligiousPressureModifier>25</ReligiousPressureModifier>
            <Cost>-1</Cost>
            <IconAtlas>COMMUNITY_ATLAS</IconAtlas>
            <PortraitIndex>3</PortraitIndex>
            <UnlockedByBelief>true</UnlockedByBelief>
            <FaithCost>200</FaithCost>
        </Row>

The Great Lighthouses +1 movement is pretty key for dromons. The difference between having and not having it for early naval warfare is huge, and I like that.

I can agree there are more movement bonuses than needed. You could remove a later on instead (treasure fleet gives supply and +1 movement, right? Its very powerful)

It's either Grande Canal or Great Lighthouse. I think Great lighthouse is the better candidate because it's earlier. Ships can't enter deep ocean yet so it's entirely possible to get hemmed into a section of continent by neighbor's borders. The +1 move doesn't really shine until deep ocean is unlocked.

That having been said, 'Treasure Fleet' is an extremely powerful promotion. +1 move, Supply, AND +10% CS. The +movement could be dropped and the grande canal would still be a very worthwhile building. Maybe just up the CS to 15% to compensate.

 

[CrazyG]

The +1 move doesn't really shine until deep ocean is unlocked.

Its a really big deal for Dromon though, going from 3 to 4 movement allows many more attacks.

I don't think you even need to compensate grand canal, supply is a very good promotion by itself

 

[ElliotS]

I'm against changing great lighthouse. It's balanced and iconic as is.

 

[Deadstarre]

Its a really big deal for Dromon though, going from 3 to 4 movement allows many more attacks.

That early in the game I can never find spare time to be making a fleet of dromons, I never have a navy worthy of building a wonder for until the renaissance rolls around. how many dromons do you usually build?

 

[CrazyG]

That early in the game I can never find spare time to be making a fleet of dromons, I never have a navy worthy of building a wonder for until the renaissance rolls around. how many dromons do you usually build?

I'll have 3 or 4 sometimes as Carthage

 

[Deadstarre]

like, yeah it makes a big difference for dromons no question (and not such a big deal for triremes) but is it worth building a wonder to buff 4 units at that point in the game? to me, the answer is no, and if i did built it i will be grateful for that fact when I do get a navy worthy of buffing but thats coming like 2 eras later. so its not overpowered, its not game shattering really either way it just always felt weird to me having something become really useful that much later. and when i choose to build it I think of it as investing for the long haul- and thats not what i want to be doing at the sailing tech generally, so i generally dont build it.

 

[Ziad]

wayyy too early, lol. Can you imagine if Venice rushed it?
Added a proposal for Brandenburg Gate change.

lol yeah I was kidding ... a lot of comments about changing GL

 

[tu_79]

Please, before suggesting any changes, state what the problem is. Maybe most of us don't see a problem in +1 movement in classical.

 

[Ziad]

Please, before suggesting any changes, state what the problem is. Maybe most of us don't see a problem in +1 movement in classical.

From what I've read, it's not so much a problem with the GL itself as much as how easy it can be to stack movement increases with Imperialism, upgrades, and England, leading to some cheese.

 

[Grabbl]

From what I've read, it's not so much a problem with the GL itself as much as how easy it can be to stack movement increases with Imperialism, upgrades, and England, leading to some cheese.

That's it, I think. Why don't we make the Imperialism opener and GL give the same promotion? Like that, it would be accessible by a wonder very early or for everyone by the Imperialism opener later on, but you wouldn't profit from having both bonuses.

Edit: Or make it only apply to Dromons, Galeasses, Triremes and Caravels. The range improvement when upgrading to Corvettes and Frigates then makes everybody equal again. Not sure about giving promotions to certain units and not to unit types by buildings, however.

 

[CrazyG]

Take the movement away from treasure fleet if the stacking is a problem