Ideas I sent to Firaxis long time ago.

[stormbind]

Some ideas I sent it to Firaxis in the past...

Wonder: The Great Museum has culture value derived from extinct civs.

Wonder: The Crystal Pallace (Industrial Age) increases education/wealth.

Small Wonder: The Commonwealth splits up your empire to reduce corruption but also removes control of city production / domestic policy (shared foreign policy only).

Attack method during age of sail: Capture enemy ships/prizes. See Man-O-War in Civ3 expansions.. Looks like they sometimes listen

 

[Phoenix]

How about Echelon - the spying system in the south of England. Apparently its meant to be the most advanced spying system in the world (it looks on the Internet, monitors mobile phone calls, etc and searches for key words [such as bomb] then it starts to monitor it - as far as I know). It could be used to give the owner the ability to perform one "steal enemy plans" mission per turn for free and without the possibility of being caught (also you don't require a spy).

Another use for it would be to grant a spy in every civ in the world and create them as Elites.

 

[socralynnek]

Ahhhhh, so they are observing us now, because you wrote 'bomb', ahhhhh, and now I wrote it too, ahhhh, they might see me as a terrorist, ahhh....

But on topic, I would like to see espionage evolve, give us more options and make some part available earlier in the game.

 

[dh_epic]

I love the great museum wonder. To me it describes something that really happens in the real world (taking culture from extinct civilizations) and adds a new strategic element.

Commonwealth I see as being something that any civ can do under specific government types... a lot of potential to make things interesting. I'd like to see this kind of "empire splitting" and relinquishing of control -- with a benefit and a cost. A GREAT tradeoff.

 

[stormbind]

Yeah, I gave The Commonwealth some thought and I would love to play it.

It would be fun because you get new capitols in each of the Nations/Dominions/Whatever but an AI controls what they build... so you know in war time (for example) that they will fight for you and produce lots of tanks (or whatever) but they also compete with you for building wonders which is kind of funny

You reliquish a lot of the "strategic" control but that actually ballances/improves big games... have you ever noticed how big empires take a lot of time to work with, and can make turns dragged out or boring?

The hardest part would be the borders: Splitting by continent seems most logical but you may get disproportionately sized chunks, which means it's only fair you get to chose which new Nation/Dominion/Whatever you will continue to control.

What thinks?

 

[Dell19]

Land borders would be one way or the other would be splitting by culture. The aim of the vassal approach is similar as vassals would be similar to commonwealth members whilst tere would also be the possibility of nations splitting if rebellions occured and were left untracked so that a USA situation could also occur.

 

[stormbind]

Another way would be to build Dominion Capitol as an improvement, and then give the new AI the cities you want it to control. This is perhaps the easiest.

This actually strikes me as the most logical, but it is always exceedingly hard to build things in far away places due to corruption, which would make the Dominion Capitol hard to aswell

Unless... you build the Small Wonder: Commonwealth, which unlocks the building of (cheap) Improvement: Dominion Capitol in all cities. Perhaps this is too confusing?

 

[stormbind]

Land borders would be one way or the other would be splitting by culture.

But they would all have the same culture to start with, so how would that work?

The aim of the vassal approach is similar as vassals would be similar to commonwealth members whilst tere would also be the possibility of nations splitting if rebellions occured and were left untracked so that a USA situation could also occur.

US problem was pre-Commonwealth era, and the Commonwealth (domestic autonomy) in many ways prevented the US problem being repeated.

 

[Coburn]

I endorse the proposition of a C'wealth small wonder, or at least something that resembles it. I've been thinking about the notion of "cultural affinity" - which bestows benefits not so much in terms of controlling vast territories with less corruption etc, rather the idea that two civilisations who share a language (A tower of Babel wonder perhaps?) and similar origins tend to trade with each other more, maintain larger investments in each others' economies, exchange scientific research; tend to maintain a more positive attitude when it comes to participating in foreign alliances.

In civ 3, cultural influence is reflected in size of territory (which i view as clumsy) and in city defections (which I turn off, because it upsets my cut and thrust strategies when invading a country). Better way to go (I think) if the value of culture is "endogenized" and be reflected in improved performance in trade, social cohesion and diplomacy (but only with "affinity cultures" eg England with US, but not England with France, which have long been cultural rivals).

 

[Dell19]

But they would all have the same culture to start with, so how would that work?

Usually on civ you get a large empire from taking over other lands which would have a different culture to begin with and also an isolated island that is a long way from the mainland could encourage a new culture to form, or even just a specific region.

The US situation is just something that I feel should also be included and thats why I would like the idea to be expanded so that civilizations can split or merge together through different stages of rebellions, vassals and fully independant states rather than limiting it to a small wonder that reduces corruption and control in the cities that it is built.

 

[stormbind]

History doesn't work that way.

The land you occupy acquires your culture. Look at history and the British, and was just propergation of the British culture with no new unique culture forming in far away places.

Americans are deceived when they say their's is unique. Really unique cultures are Inca, Egyptian, Mongol, Native American etc... UK-US-Canadian-Australian culture is all the same thing.

Those regions that had a unique culture to start with, had it diluted/contaminated by the British culture. In some places it was only a little diluted, in other places all but completely destroyed.

Culture is the way of life, behavior patterns, beliefs, social structure... it is not the name of a food chain, or one company's variation on a recipe.

 

[Verowin]

I lived and worked in Holland and the USA. I travelled the globe for more than 8 years, visiting over 50 countries. I worked with eastern and western europeans, asians and americans. I know from that there is a huge differenece between the culture of the USA and the culture of Brittain or Holland There is even a huge difference between Danmark and Norway, which at one point formed one Kingdom.
Visit the countries you mentioned and you will see that culture goes much deeper than you think.
Stormbringer, out of curiuosity, when did you send those ideas? I think we are a bit late with new ideas, when the game is going to be on the shelves withn a year.

 

[stormbind]

Funny. I also lived and studied in those countries

I remember the respective neighbourhoods like the back of my hand. Which cities did you live in?

Not 50 others though... that's impressive... how long did it take you? Surely, you couldn't have stayed long at any of them!! I travelled a smaller selection of countries for about 10 years.

There's no significant difference in Americans & Dutch. The behavioural patters are the same... they like non-lethal sports, they are policed by civilians, they have legal representation and trial by peers, they have the same meals in the day, monogomous relationships, democratic elections, compulsory education... it's the same culture! It's the same way of life.

You compare the Inca, who played games like soccer/basketball/etc. except the captain of the losing team would be beheaded. Or, the Persians where they intentionally underfed cadets so that they would learn to steal from civilians. Or, Egyptians who had unussual burial practices. Or, Mongols who believed Ghengis would personally travel to punish offenders. Or, Arabs who take multiple wives. Or, the Romans who maintained a strict cast system for women. And there are many others. These are all different cultures; transplanting the citizens of one into another would result in culture shock... you don't witness culture shock when flying from Miami to Tilburg!!

 

[Verowin]

Remeber the "Talk" in Tilburg? Had some good times there.
I worked on cruise and container ships for over 8 years. Visited many countries for shorter and longer periods of time. On the ship I worked with all kinds of nationalities. I was born and raised in Holland and now I live in Huntington Beach (near LA). The way of life here in the USA still amazes me. I work, eat sleep just as I did in Rotterdam, but the little difference make it a different culture. An extreme example is, when I first took my mother to Las Vegas, she did suffer a culture shock. Maybe the cultural difference and equality explains a bit the Love & Hate relation ship between the USA and Europe.
PS: the Maya's sacrificed the captain of the winning team. At least that was what the guide told me at Tikal.

 

[stormbind]

No, I don't remember any "Talk"? Maybe I was the wrong age group, or visited at the wrong time, hard to say when I don't know what it is...

I lived in Hilvarenbeek and studied in Eindhoven; visited Tilburg fairly frequently, but can't think what it is you're referring to

---

Tell me why it was a culture shock. That really interests me.

I've not been to Las Vegas but in my opinion, it is like a big theme park. It certainly has a "wow" factor, but it's only branding, and it's localised. I don't think Las Vegas defines any American culture, no more than the open-window prositute shops in Amsterdam define Dutch culture: I certainly never saw any of that where I lived in the Netherlands!

My opinion of Las Vegas is, it's just a bunch of crazy gamblers crammed together, with lots of noise and bright lights. We (westerners) can accept Las Vegas as being that way... and I think Las Vegas impresses both Americans and Europeans equally...

If you abducted an Arab lady from her quiet kitchen in Saudi Arabia, and dropped her in Las Vegas, then I would anticipate culture shock! I think she would be pretty horified and completely unable to just accept it as it is.

 

[Dell19]

Its argueable that any organisation has a unique culture, it may be similar to others but it is still unique and made up of slightly different values and beliefs... In the case of Civ then I guess its more acceptable to think culture has to be something widely different but I still think culture differs slightly and this would be a possible game mechanism to decide which areas should split.

 

[dh_epic]

Nationalism is a huge part of creating cultural differentiators, which are often directly stemming from the advent of the printing press.

In the poets, the intellectuals, the philosophers, the musicians and artists of a people, they find ways to represent the unique qualities of what they deem their culture.

Obviously America inhereted much from Britain. But obviously they differentiated themselves in a lot of ways, because they eventually split. America owes a lot to its intellectuals and artists for identifying those differences, for example the pilgrims seeking refuge from religious persecution... freedom became an intimate ideal tied to what it meant to be an American. (And I'm saying this as a Canadian.)

Naturally, Civ 4 would have to be running on a supercomputer designed by the most brilliant AI scientists and anthropologists to compute "why this country split from that country". I don't think that's the relevent issue though.

All that's relevent is that geographical distance is going to increase the likelihood of a split. Canada and Australia are what you would want if you were playing Civ as Britain. America is what you would not want. (But, to my American friends, in reality the world should be grateful that America was born)

 

[stormbind]

Its argueable that any organisation has a unique culture

Yeah, brand culture. But stamping "new recipe" on a prominent product, or redisigning the looks of a leading department store, do not change the population's way of life.

 

[stormbind]

Nationalism is a huge part of creating cultural differentiators

No it's not. The USA tried hard to artificially create a new culture by re-spelling words (Webster) and things like that. I can walk out of my home in Exeter, hop on a plane to New York, switch to my American accent (which is natural and just retained) and nobody, short of checking my passport, would know I wasn't American.

In the poets, the intellectuals, the philosophers, the musicians and artists of a people, they find ways to represent the unique qualities of what they deem their culture.

We talk of globalisation today, but it existed in the past aswell. Victorians living in America copied the fasions of London and Paris. Asside from new street names and odd accent, they would have not found it strange if they were transplanted to from Philadelphia to Coventry.

In contrast, they would have found it strange if they were transplanted from Philadelphia to Bejing

Obviously America inhereted much from Britain. But obviously they differentiated themselves in a lot of ways, because they eventually split.

Actually we already touched on this in another forum. The bulk of the US population were "loyalists", but the local authorities (private militia) confiscated property, tarred & feathered, or even murdered those who spoke out against revolution!

During the actual revolution, there were believed to be 500,000 civilians fighting to remain in Britain. After the revolution, at least 50,000 migrated to Canada.

Remember that history is recorded by the victors, and those particular victors wanted to establish a unique culture so destroyed anything that linked them to Britain... within 50 years those revolutionists were gone though, and there was no authority opposing cultural syncronisation with European nations.

America owes a lot to its intellectuals and artists for identifying those differences, for example the pilgrims seeking refuge from religious persecution...

That's not accurate. Those pilgrims have no influence in current American way of life. They were Puritans... Lord Protector Cromwell was a Puritan... Britain was ruled by a Puritan Republic! The histories are so similiar. Puritans don't affect current British way of life either

 

[Dell19]

Yeah, brand culture. But stamping "new recipe" on a prominent product, or redisigning the looks of a leading department store, do not change the populations culture.

Scale an organisation's culture up to the size of a country and multiply it by plenty of years and I'm sure there will be enough difference to generate a reasonably distinctive culture difference...