[RD] Identifying with fictional characters and caring for them

[Valka D'Ur]

In the end, stories with protagonists a lot of people can relate to, seem to do well. Luke Skywalker, Leto Atreides, Frodo Baggins.. Fantastical settings, and yet, there's so much there in these characters to relate to. Main characters usually go through some sort of a journey, and that's what life is - a series of journeys. I guess in the end the deal is that if the main character is going through a journey I can't relate to at all, then I'll be a bit "meh" about everything. Who is this robot who is going through this ordeal? Who do I care? But if it's someone like the 3 characters I mentioned, it's so easy to see character traits I can relate to very well, which seems to draw me more into the story, because it seems to be written from some place that actually exists.. and I guess it also seems human.

Which Leto Atreides? There were three of them: Duke Leto, the child Leto (Paul and Chani's firstborn who was killed by the Harkonnens), and Leto II, aka the God Emperor.

I'm assuming you are not referring to the child who was killed, as he was little more than a baby and most people tend to forget he even existed.

Duke Leto (Paul's father) is one of the Dune characters I really like. Someone who rules a whole planet could easily turn into a tyrant, as the Harkonnens did, but Duke Leto's focus is on honor and justice.

Leto II... well, there are some people who think he's just wonderful. I think he's a murderous, narcissistic psychopath. I absolutely can't stand him. The only character in God Emperor of Dune who is remotely relatable is Duncan Idaho - who happens to be my favorite Dune character no matter which book I'm reading (of the FH ones, that is).

 

[Camikaze]

Why is any of that a problem? Like an actual problem? What is the biggest downside?

White American 223,553,265 72.4 %
Black American 38,929,319 12.6 %
Asian American 14,674,252 4.8 %

The number of movies I've seen from the US roughly correspond to this ratio in representation. I don't really remember the directors or specific movies, but they weren't all comedies with generic stereotypes simply for the lulz. Why isn't anyone complaining Bollywood is full of Indian people?

I think a complicating factor is that Hollywood is much more an international industry than Bollywood. I assume the list Owen posted was of highest grossest movies internationally, not specifically for the US. It is less surprising internationally that there aren't as many popular movies produced/directed/written by African-Americans, because to the extent that it's contended their African-Americanness is relevant, it's not going to resonate to an international audience; African-Americans are not a particularly significant group on an international scale. But Africans are, Asians are (and the fact that it's possible to lump such a variety of groups into those two labels probably emphasises how underrepresented the people of those groups are in films of international cultural significance).

I suspect it's largely because the significant movie markets are still largely white. You would perhaps expect an increase in Asian representation accompanying the growth in Asian consumer markets.

 

[Omega124]

As a BTW, I wrote this essay on A&E which kind of corresponds with the idea of identifying with characters (Namely, how 2nd Person narration prevents that, and therefore tends to make stories written in that form weaker)

Since A&E is not always the most active subforum, I'd appreciate if you'd take a look

 

[warpus]

Which Leto Atreides? There were three of them: Duke Leto, the child Leto (Paul and Chani's firstborn who was killed by the Harkonnens), and Leto II, aka the God Emperor.

I meant the Duke, I couldn't really relate to the God Emperor much at all. From what I remember (I've read the series twice, last time 8 years ago, so I could have some stuff mixed up, it's been a while) From what I remember: I didn't think Leto II was wonderful or anything similar, but I didn't dislike him for being a psochopath. I mean, yeah, the psychopath part was not likeable or anything like that, but it made him into an interesting character at least. I disliked him mainly because he was a lazy character. He was so aloof about everything, all "meh, whatever, stuff will happen and whatever", like a hippy from the 70s telling you to calm downnn mannn chilll out, the future is written, I just wanted to slap him. I appreciated the literary styles employed and the execution of that part of the story, but as a character the God Emperor was just.. I don't know, I said lazy earlier, maybe that's a good way to put it, maybe not, when he died I just thought that was sort of a waste of literary space in the story that could have been explored instead. Not that I didn't like the book or anything, there is still probably a lot of stuff for me to get at in a 3rd reading, but for me the original Dune was always the strongest, Children of Dune is my second favourite from what I remember, and Chapterhouse: Dune is right behind that. Or Heretics of Dune next, I think. Could have the last two mixed up. God Emperor next, and Dune Messiah last.

But mind you all of this could change when I read the series a third time.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I meant the Duke, I couldn't really relate to the God Emperor much at all. From what I remember (I've read the series twice, last time 8 years ago, so I could have some stuff mixed up, it's been a while) From what I remember: I didn't think Leto II was wonderful or anything similar, but I didn't dislike him for being a psochopath. I mean, yeah, the psychopath part was not likeable or anything like that, but it made him into an interesting character at least. I disliked him mainly because he was a lazy character. He was so aloof about everything, all "meh, whatever, stuff will happen and whatever", like a hippy from the 70s telling you to calm downnn mannn chilll out, the future is written, I just wanted to slap him. I appreciated the literary styles employed and the execution of that part of the story, but as a character the God Emperor was just.. I don't know, I said lazy earlier, maybe that's a good way to put it, maybe not, when he died I just thought that was sort of a waste of literary space in the story that could have been explored instead. Not that I didn't like the book or anything, there is still probably a lot of stuff for me to get at in a 3rd reading, but for me the original Dune was always the strongest, Children of Dune is my second favourite from what I remember, and Chapterhouse: Dune is right behind that. Or Heretics of Dune next, I think. Could have the last two mixed up. God Emperor next, and Dune Messiah last.

But mind you all of this could change when I read the series a third time.

Some of the people on the Dune forum I used to run were just gaga over Leto II. They insisted that he was such a wonderful tragic person who sacrificed his humanity to enact the Golden Path and save the rest of humanity from some nebulous future threat that only he and Paul Atreides had seen with their prescient abilities.

Gah.

There's a tragic hero in that series, but it's not Leto II. Or at least not only Leto II. Actually, Dune is something Shakespeare could have written if he'd lived a few centuries later and was into science fiction.

Paul Atreides is who I think of as a tragic hero. I'm not sure Duncan Idaho could be considered one, because he doesn't seem to have the flaw necessary to fit the criteria.

It's too bad I hadn't read Dune back when I was taking my college English courses. Now I have a crazy urge to write an essay.


The order of the Original Six novels are:

1. Dune
2. Dune Messiah
3. Children of Dune
4. God Emperor of Dune
5. Heretics of Dune
6. Chapterhouse: Dune

Sadly, Frank Herbert died before he could finish writing the last book in the series. Chapterhouse ends on a cliffhanger, and that ridiculous nonsense churned out by Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert isn't a real sequel to Chapterhouse; it's more a sequel to their own nuDune drivel (talk about unlikeable and unrelatable characters!).

 

[sophie]

I suspect it's largely because the significant movie markets are still largely white. You would perhaps expect an increase in Asian representation accompanying the growth in Asian consumer markets.

I mean that's the funny thing about it. You would think that, but no. The reaction is more Tokenism. The battle in Transformers 4 takes place in Hong Kong. China saves the day at the end of The Martian. Batman goes to Shanghai in The Dark Knight Rises. That's how Hollywood connects with their new Asian markets.

 

[Hygro]

But why is this a problem? If the main character is unlike you isn't that better? You experience being yourself every day, shouldn't fictional works provide something different?
Like why is this brought up?

To have a deep reading experiences without identifying with the characters is enlightened.

 

[JohannaK]

This is funny. There is this one book written a couple or so years ago, which was all the rage in Europe. At least Germany. It's odd because the author is Catalan but he does have a huge following in Germany. Any way I read half of it last summer, and left it at page 500. The book was very well written, a main story sprinkled with snippets of histories that linked to the first one through a violin that ends up in the protagonist's possession. Very well written, everyday man characters, and really great tidbits sprinkled here and there. My favourite has to be the bit in which a dinner of Rudolf Hess with a concentration camp doctor is montaged with a dinner between a high inquisitor and a lesser cleric.

I haven't opened it since august. The protagonist was so human it was boring.

 

[Cutlass]

I mean that's the funny thing about it. You would think that, but no. The reaction is more Tokenism. The battle in Transformers 4 takes place in Hong Kong. China saves the day at the end of The Martian. Batman goes to Shanghai in The Dark Knight Rises. That's how Hollywood connects with their new Asian markets.

And the Avengers went to Korea

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Even after reading this thread I still don't understand what "identifying with" even means. If it means "having traits like" then I don't (and don't see why I should) care about that. If it doesn't mean that (as some are saying) then it's not really clear to me what it does mean.

Valka said she doesn't like a lot of modern sit-coms because it's just people spouting one-liners at each other, but surely that's just because they're badly-written characters and not believable as human beings. It doesn't seem to be a case of not being able to "relate".

Others have said it's about understanding a character's motivation or empathising with them. But again, there are already terms for those things ("understanding the motivation of" or "empathising with") so why this other term? Is it just a synonym?

 

[warpus]

Some of the people on the Dune forum I used to run were just gaga over Leto II. They insisted that he was such a wonderful tragic person who sacrificed his humanity to enact the Golden Path and save the rest of humanity from some nebulous future threat that only he and Paul Atreides had seen with their prescient abilities.

Yeah, my view on the God Emperor was that he was a waste of a God. He didn't do anything and in the end embraced death, IMO. Lazy character, if at first interesting.

Paul Atreides is who I think of as a tragic hero.

I agree, and Dune Messiah really hits that point home. It's one of the reasons I do not like that novel as much as the others.. I did not want Paul "to go there", I wanted a different resolution for him. It was lazy in a similar way that Leto II was lazy, Paul embraced what he thought as inevitable.. Sort of. I wish he walked his own path, which you could argue he did, but.. Yeah, even all that aside, Dune Messiah was written in such an odd way, I do not enjoy it as much as the others just from a literary point of view alone.

The order of the Original Six novels are:

Yeah I know, I was just listing the books in order of preference

Sadly, Frank Herbert died before he could finish writing the last book in the series. Chapterhouse ends on a cliffhanger, and that ridiculous nonsense churned out by Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert isn't a real sequel to Chapterhouse; it's more a sequel to their own nuDune drivel (talk about unlikeable and unrelatable characters!).

I know we disagree on this, but I liked the ending, in terms of man and machine uniting to form a God-like entity that was superior to the ones that came before it. That was a solid conclusion to the Dune story, I thought, if the path the authors took to get there was flawed. Still, I enjoyed their 2 sequel novels more than the House prequels. Frank Herbert is never coming back, unfortunately, so we will never know what those novels would have been like, had he written them.

Maybe one day an AI will be able to put pen to paper and take on the role of Frank Herbert, but I think the Herbert estate accepts the new novels as belonging to the story whether we like it or not.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Also...

Realize this isn't PC , but am Caucasian plus some Cherokee and find it near impossible to identify with a none Caucasian/Native American Characters.

Good.

is this not priceless?

 

[Gori the Grey]

The story of how Smelly the Terrible avoided bathing in order to shock and offend the fair princess is not going to work. Readers (even smelly ones challenged by their own lack of access to baths) are just not going to like the protagonist, or his objective.

I might just take this as a challenge. I felt an instant pang of sympathy with Smelly the Terrible, just on hearing his name, knowing nothing else about him. And that made me suspect, almost to a certainty, that there's more to this bath-avoidance than meets the eye. Or nose. Don't know if I have the time for it, but y'all might be getting the Saga of Smelly the Terrible at some point.

 

[Borachio]

The story of how Smelly the Terrible avoided bathing in order to shock and offend the fair princess is not going to work.

You'll have met my brother, I take it.

I remember him saying he didn't need to bother with baths, and just rubbed the dirt off on to his wife (who took the baths for both of them).

Mind you, that was his first wife. Understandably, perhaps. Though they were married for more than twenty years.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I agree, and Dune Messiah really hits that point home. It's one of the reasons I do not like that novel as much as the others.. I did not want Paul "to go there", I wanted a different resolution for him. It was lazy in a similar way that Leto II was lazy, Paul embraced what he thought as inevitable.. Sort of. I wish he walked his own path, which you could argue he did, but.. Yeah, even all that aside, Dune Messiah was written in such an odd way, I do not enjoy it as much as the others just from a literary point of view alone.

One of the points I made years ago on the dunenovels.com forum is that part of Leto II's problem is that he was never a normal human, even as a child. He was pre-born with an adult consciousness even when still in the womb, so he had absolutely no direct understanding of what normal humans think and feel. He went from pre-born child to sandworm and didn't have any experience of normal humanity inbetween. He might pontificate to Moneo, Siona, Sister Chenoeh, or Duncan Idaho, but his knowledge is only second-hand. He doesn't really know what all those people in Other Memory felt. He can't empathize with them, not really, and that in turn makes him a pretentious <unmentionable> with whom many readers can't empathize or identify.

That's the essential difference between him and Paul. Paul was a normal human who grew and learned as humans do. Yes, he was exceptionally intelligent and trained to a high degree in as much of the Bene Gesserit skills as Jessica could teach a male child. But he was still human, and had too much direct knowledge and understanding of how much of his humanity he would have had to give up to take the step that Leto II took.

Frank Herbert is never coming back, unfortunately, so we will never know what those novels would have been like, had he written them.

I suspect that Frank Herbert may have been going for the idea that the Tleilaxu Face Dancers were the next step in human evolution. Rather creepy, that, especially considering how they considered women as no more than incubators to produce more Tleilaxu males. I'm not sure about FH's take on the Honored Matres, given how even more creepy and revolting it is to modern readers that bringing back child Duncan and Teg's memories basically involved being raped by an adult Bene Gesserit (okay, I know that in Duncan's case it was an Honored Matre who did it, but the original plan was for a Bene Gesserit to do it).

Evil shapeshifting robots and shallow, one-dimensional computer/cyborg villains that were evil just because they were evil is not where FH was going.

Maybe one day an AI will be able to put pen to paper and take on the role of Frank Herbert, but I think the Herbert estate accepts the new novels as belonging to the story whether we like it or not.

The HLP may accept it as canon. I never will.

My Dune consists of the Original Six novels plus whatever FH authorized or did not object to - including the Dune Encyclopedia, Eye, and National Lampoon's DOON.

 

[warpus]

One of the points I made years ago on the dunenovels.com forum is that part of Leto II's problem is that he was never a normal human, even as a child. He was pre-born with an adult consciousness even when still in the womb, so he had absolutely no direct understanding of what normal humans think and feel. He went from pre-born child to sandworm and didn't have any experience of normal humanity inbetween. He might pontificate to Moneo, Siona, Sister Chenoeh, or Duncan Idaho, but his knowledge is only second-hand. He doesn't really know what all those people in Other Memory felt. He can't empathize with them, not really, and that in turn makes him a pretentious <unmentionable> with whom many readers can't empathize or identify.

I see most if not all of that as a reflection of Leto II as a God. If you're all-knowing, you can't have any aspect of you that is child-like, and most humans retain a bit of their childhood into adulthood. Leto II lacks an ability to relate to that aspect of humanity because as a God-like entity he embodies the opposite of several things that make the human condition what it is. For example the ability to be surprised, make mistakes, be wrong, etc.

I don't think he was written to be relatable, so he comes off as an inhuman psychopath.. which by many measures he is... but by God-like measures he might not be at all.

I agree with you btw that Duncan Idaho was one of the best character in the series. I'm not sure if I really have a favourite character, but Duncan Idaho is the character I connected to the most, I think. Paul's journey was always more fantastical, he was a royal, bound for greatness, etc. Duncan Idaho's journey seemed more relatable somehow, I mean, even though he was pretty much a handsome ninja, skilled pilot, supersoldier, swordmaster and at the end of the story {you know what, I don't want to spoil it for anyone in case they haven't read the books which you don't like, I know}

 

[Dachs]

Batman goes to Shanghai in The Dark Knight Rises.

No. He goes to Hong Kong in The Dark Knight.

I don't think that that's really an instance of tokenism, mostly because the filmmakers probably weren't even thinking of the East Asian market when they made the film and partially because the sequence contains a lot of overt mockery of the Chinese government: operating a haven for criminals, with blatantly corrupt law enforcement. There's even a dig at the PRC's GDP numbers. "Lau's company has grown 8% annually, like clockwork. His revenue stream must be off the books - maybe even illegal."

It's a far cry from Transformers, certainly.

 

[sophie]

No. He goes to Hong Kong in The Dark Knight.

I don't think that that's really an instance of tokenism, mostly because the filmmakers probably weren't even thinking of the East Asian market when they made the film and partially because the sequence contains a lot of overt mockery of the Chinese government: operating a haven for criminals, with blatantly corrupt law enforcement. There's even a dig at the PRC's GDP numbers. "Lau's company has grown 8% annually, like clockwork. His revenue stream must be off the books - maybe even illegal."

It's a far cry from Transformers, certainly.

Link to video.

 

[Dachs]

Link to video.

Y'know, you were in the channel when Kraz and I were talking about that 8% line. Pretty sure you participated in the conversation, too.

 

[sophie]

Y'know, you were in the channel when Kraz and I were talking about that 8% line. Pretty sure you participated in the conversation, too.

Christ, what was that, like 5 years ago? Mang I barely remember what I did last week.