Ideology Renaming Poll

[civplayer33]

I’m just surprised that there are more people voting for Liberalism/Communism/Fascism than the Autocracy change.

Especially since it was supposed to be Liberty/Marxism/Fascism...Liberty not Liberalism is what western democracies are founded upon; liberalism is just one of the three philosophies found in democratic societies, among conservatism and socialism.

Alas the poll speaks for itself.

 

[SLGray]

Everyone needs to understand that these terms over time meant different things.

Just like political terms had many meanings through history.

Look up liberalism, and you will see many different meanings.

There is really no way to include all meanings of terms in the game.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Especially since it was supposed to be Liberty/Marxism/Fascism...Liberty not Liberalism is what western democracies are founded upon; liberalism is just one of the three philosophies found in democratic societies, among conservatism and socialism.

Alas the poll speaks for itself.

Liberalism in the formal, political-philosophical sense means giving primacy to liberty. It encompasses democratic conservatism and socialism. If we were going by formal ideological names, liberalism would be a good fit.

 

[civplayer33]

Everyone needs to understand that these terms over time meant different things.

Just like political terms had many meanings through history.

Look up liberalism, and you will see many different meanings.

There is really no way to include all meanings of terms in the game.

Well that kind of game we can play all day; the word "term" you used in your post meant "limit in time, set or appointed period" in the 12th century so if I interpret it that way your last sentence doesn't make sense.

Liberalism in the formal, political-philosophical sense means giving primacy to liberty. It encompasses democratic conservatism and socialism. If we were going by formal ideological names, liberalism would be a good fit.

Liberty is a much older word and used to mean "free choice, freedom to do as one chooses" while Liberalism and "liberal" in the political sense was really only used since the 19th century.

Etymology is wonderful isn't it

 

[Blue Ghost]

Well that kind of game we can play all day; the word "term" you used in your post meant "limit in time, set or appointed period" in the 12th century so if I interpret it that way your last sentence doesn't make sense.



Liberty is a much older word and used to mean "free choice, freedom to do as one chooses" while Liberalism and "liberal" in the political sense was really only used since the 19th century.

Etymology is wonderful isn't it

Marxism and Fascism are also recent terms used to describe older ideas. So that would be consistent. Not that I’m advocating the naming scheme anyway.

 

[civplayer33]

Marxism and Fascism are also recent terms used to describe older ideas. So that would be consistent. Not that I’m advocating the naming scheme anyway.

Good point that they are new terms but I don't think they necessarily describe older ideas, which is in fact why these words are relatively new. I don't know much about non-European history but it seems to me that in the western world liberty came out of the enlightenment in the 14th and 15th century and reflected increasing opposition to despotic rule while Marxism and Fascism rather capitalized on the "death of God" as proclaimed by Nietzsche in the 19th century to try to replace the crumbling judeo-christian value structure with something else.

 

[SLGray]

It depends on what sources you are looking at when you research ideologies. You need to read things on both sides and a independent party.

 

[pineappledan]

Good point that they are new terms but I don't think they necessarily describe older ideas, which is in fact why these words are relatively new. I don't know much about non-European history but it seems to me that in the western world liberty came out of the enlightenment in the 14th and 15th century and reflected increasing opposition to despotic rule while Marxism and Fascism rather capitalized on the "death of God" as proclaimed by Nietzsche in the 19th century to try to replace the crumbling judeo-christian value structure with something else.

Ehhh.... the philosophies and language used to support and legitimize the ideologies certainly have changed, but to say the government styles are new isn't accurate. Fascism looks a lot like spartan society. Liberalism looks a fair bit like classical republicanism, communism (note I did NOT say Marxism) is just a classic command economy, typical of most Bronze Age civilizations. You can find parallels in many ages and places, but maybe not in markedly irreligious language.

 

[civplayer33]

It depends on what sources you are looking at when you research ideologies. You need to read things on both sides and a independent party.

If I were to formulate a differentiated and balanced historical argument then maybe I would need to do that but I am simply commenting on the linguistic evidence of what is at the basis of western society and how that compares temporally to Marxism and Fascism. As far as any claims on "their" side is concerned: of course they would claim that their ideas are universal and as old as time, it gives the idea more credibility and power; and make no mistake, the Marxist dogma revolves around power as much as a skilled dancer about her center during a pirouette (fascism, of course, is even more obvious in that). Heck, there are even pretty good psychological arguments showing how these two ideologies are predicated on extremes in personality types, namely Orderliness as part of Conscientiousness (Fascism) and Compassion as part of Agreeableness (Marxism).

Whether or not parallels can be drawn to older forms of society is beside the point in my opinion as in both Fascism and Marxism the ideological basis is central to the policies that evolve from it. Furthermore, there is an argument to be made that ideological control of a large population is impossible without the technologies attained in the 20th century, like telecommunication and mobility (cars and railways) since otherwise you will have a hard time indoctrinating and then monitoring the entire population in an effective and centralized manner; any initial success would be thwarted because the inherent social dynamic in groups of people would revert the prevailing value systems back to a more natural state in short order absent the threat of ever present surveillance and intervention. That religion is more natural and fundamental than ideology is an axiomatic belief of this argumentation, which I hold personally, despite not being very religious.

 

[Gazebo]

Just gonna throw out there my own suggestion:

Whowardia/Gazebism/Ilteroika

Thoughts?

G

 

[Txurce]

Just gonna throw out there my own suggestion:

Whowardia/Gazebism/Ilteroika

Thoughts?

G

The Basque consensus strongly supports Ilteroika.

 

[Dawnpromise]

Just gonna throw out there my own suggestion:

Whowardia/Gazebism/Ilteroika

Thoughts?

G

Only if you combine it with a detailed civpedia page detailing the rich history of these Ideologies.

 

[civplayer33]

Just gonna throw out there my own suggestion:

Whowardia/Gazebism/Ilteroika

Thoughts?

G

Fake constructs aimed at replacing the judeo-christian value structure .
Gazebism is obviously associated psychologically with extreme levels of Industriousness as part of Conscientiousness while Ilteroika is associated with extreme levels of Intelligence as part of Openness to Experience; Whowasthatguy, however, lives up to his name. The question is, do we really want to promote the portrayal of psychological deviants in this beautiful game?

 

[Blue Ghost]

Just gonna throw out there my own suggestion:

Whowardia/Gazebism/Ilteroika

Thoughts?

G

How would these correspond to Freedom/Order/Autocracy? What tenets would they have? Inquiring minds would like to know!

 

[tu_79]

Just gonna throw out there my own suggestion:

Whowardia/Gazebism/Ilteroika

Thoughts?

G

Sorry, I laughed so much that I cried. :'D

This is certainly the most abstract, respectful and self-promoting proposal so far. I'm curious about what developer fits better in each ideology.

The Basque consensus strongly supports Ilteroika.

I would never have thought it was an actual word.

 

[ElliotS]

If we're going to rename them can Autocracy be renamed to 'Elliot's Whacky Jingotastic Murder State'? CrazyG can have Freedom and Owl or someone else can have Order.

 

[Dawnpromise]

If we're going to rename them can Autocracy be renamed to 'Elliot's Whacky Jingotastic Murder State'? CrazyG can have Freedom and Owl or someone else can have Order.

I'd be on board with just renaming it to "Murder State". I can't think of any other reason one would take Autocracy then to murder one's neighbors.

 

[ElliotS]

I'd be on board with just renaming it to "Murder State". I can't think of any other reason one would take Autocracy then to murder one's neighbors.

Honestly it's really good for diplomatic victories now. New Autocracy is super good and fun as hell.

 

[Dawnpromise]

Honestly it's really good for diplomatic victories now. New Autocracy is super good and fun as hell.

Ah yes the 'vote for me or I'll kill you dead' approach to politics. Who knew terrorism was such a good campaign strategy?

 

[ElliotS]

Ah yes the 'vote for me or I'll kill you dead' approach to politics. Who knew terrorism was such a good campaign strategy?

I think this is the perfect example of this method of diplomacy.