If humans are a product of evolution...

[Synobun]

"Black people should be grateful we enslaved them and brought them here" is certainly one of the more... interesting viewpoints put forth here lately.

 

[Cutlass]

The definition of citizen. If everyone is a citizen, then there are no citizens.

By definition, citizenship is a right. The most fundamental of all human rights. Without it, there's only tyranny.

 

[Perfection]

To be a citizen means that a nation has to make you a citizen. If everyone was entitled to be a citizen simply by virtue of being human then you would cease to have a nation.

After Africans were brought over to America against their will and stripped of their former identities surely that would be sufficient argument for citizenship.

To a black person living in America slavery was a definitely a good thing. As a result, they get the benefit of living in a nice, first-world country. I doubt any of them would have rather been born in Africa. And I doubt many of them are dying to move there.

Maybe Africa wouldn't have had the same sort of problems it has now if it wasn't subjugated by colonial powers for centuries.

 

[NinjaCow64]

To a black person living in America slavery was a definitely a good thing. As a result, they get the benefit of living in a nice, first-world country. I doubt any of them would have rather been born in Africa. And I doubt many of them are dying to move there.

To a white person living in America slavery was a terrible thing. It has been used to gaslight and make us hate ourselves. We fought a brutal civil war which we still feel the effects of to this day. And we now have a racial minority in our country which is taught to hate us.

Believe me, I would much rather American slavery never happened.

You really think that the worst thing about American slavery is the fact that it makes white people feel guilty?

 

[Berzerker]

Race does exist, however not in the way that many people think.

As @El_Machinae said, race is a social construct. It has no basis in biology. Believing in these so-called "biological differences" between races is very racist.

Why is it racist? Earlier in the thread I mentioned the fastest people on the planet are dominated by people of recent African descent and why - a biological response to their environment. Was that racist? Is it racist if I'm black and I say that? But some Africans are better runners than others. The Ethiopian highlands produce marathon runners (greater lung capacity) and sprinters come from W Africans largely subject to the slave trade (a form of eugenics). Those biological differences are why they dominate running. Should I feel like the victim of racism because I'm not fast? Its not a race...

What does it mean to say race is a social construct? Seems to me race was just another categorization of people. Family, clan, tribe, ethnicity, race, humanity. I've always considered race to be the next step up from ethnicity, but race could even refer to your ethnicity. Okay, so race doesn't exist... Does ethnicity exist? Tribe? What joins these different categories? Bloodlines... An ethnicity is a more diffuse bloodline than a tribe which is more diffuse than the clan. And race is a more diffuse bloodline than an ethnicity. I dont understand why that poses a problem, whether or not the way we have categorized race in the past seems irrelevant. I believe there is a step between my Irish ethnicity and humanity, at least one step. I'd have to include the Neanderthals in there somewhere.

 

[civver_764]

We replaced slavery with Jim Crow and the KKK

Y'know I read somewhere that more white people were murdered by blacks in the last 5 years than in the entire history of KKK lynchings.

After Africans were brought over to America against their will and stripped of their former identities surely that would be sufficient argument for citizenship.

Seems more of an argument for going our separate ways.

Maybe Africa wouldn't have had the same sort of problems it has now if it wasn't subjugated by colonial powers for centuries.

You don't even believe this.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Well put civver_764, one of the leading minds of the 19th century!
Have we no work houses?
Mister Marley would like a word with you, he's the fellow in the chains. Ignore the moans, it's just gas...

 

[uppi]

But you wouldn't deny religion exists.
Eh, I might not be grasping your point too securely

The point is that racism does exists (and unfortunately, we don't have to look very far to confirm that). That only acknowledges that the concept of race exists and does not make a statement whether that concept has any ties to reality. Compare that to unicorns: It is generally understood what those are supposed to be, so the concept exists, but that doesn't mean there are any.

You can call someone a racist without acknowledging the existence of race the same way as you can call someone a flat-earther or a creationist without acknowledging that there is any truth to the concept of a flat earth or creationism.

Aren't you re-enforcing racism by using the term as if race does exist?

No, not in general and not in this case.

However, you are not totally wrong. Sometimes I feel that well-intentioned people who try to fight racism are buying way too much into the concept of race. I get that to help people disadvantaged by racism, you need to identify those people first. But the question "what race are you?" (or a sugar-coated wording thereof) I have encountered on a form of an American organization that was trying to promote diversity was already way too racist for me.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Moderator Action: This thread has the potential for a really good discussion. It also has the potential to become a dog fight. Let's limit ourselves to discussing the topic, and not each other, please.

 

[Berzerker]

Their own people enslaved them, and to this day they are still enslaving each other. All of the descendants black people brought to America are much better off than the descendants of those left behind.

I dont think it was their own people doing that, the slave trade was based on ethnicity or tribalism. Thats like saying Cromwell slaughtered his own people, the Irish would disagree. And while its true many black people here have it better than W Africa, maybe it would be nicer in W Africa if the place wasn't torn apart by the slave trade.

Y'know I read somewhere that more white people were murdered by blacks in the last 5 years than in the entire history of KKK lynchings.

Populations were smaller back then... but we reap what we sow. Maybe we shouldn't be making black neighborhoods ground zero for our drug war. But our terrorism of black people was not limited to lynchings, do your stats show how many black people were killed or murdered via all the other means employed by the states and their 'militias'? You're comparing individual black murderers with the state and its various weapons. Wanna bet more black people have been killed by white people in this country's history? I'll take that bet...

 

[NinjaCow64]

Why is it racist? Earlier in the thread I mentioned the fastest people on the planet are dominated by people of recent African descent and why - a biological response to their environment. Was that racist? Is it racist if I'm black and I say that? But some Africans are better runners than others. The Ethiopian highlands produce marathon runners (greater lung capacity) and sprinters come from W Africans largely subject to the slave trade (a form of eugenics). Those biological differences are why they dominate running. Should I feel like the victim of racism because I'm not fast? Its not a race...

There doesn't seem to be a consensus why East Africans produce faster runners in the Olympics. However, I would be reluctant to ascribe any biological "advantages" or "disadvantages" on certain groups of people due to how that has been historically used to justify pseudo-scientific racism.

What does it mean to say race is a social construct? Seems to me race was just another categorization of people. Family, clan, tribe, ethnicity, race, humanity. I've always considered race to be the next step up from ethnicity, but race could even refer to your ethnicity. Okay, so race doesn't exist... Does ethnicity exist? Tribe? What joins these different categories? Bloodlines... An ethnicity is a more diffuse bloodline than a tribe which is more diffuse than the clan. And race is a more diffuse bloodline than an ethnicity. I dont understand why that poses a problem, whether or not the way we have categorized race in the past seems irrelevant. I believe there is a step between my Irish ethnicity and humanity, at least one step. I'd have to include the Neanderthals in there somewhere.

Okay I'm not an expert on sociology, so I might get a few things wrong or a few things oversimplified or plain wrong. If someone with a better understanding of sociology comes in and wants to correct/enhance my arguments, go ahead.

From my understanding, social constructs are something created by society. Race is a categorisation of people, but its one that it determined by society. There's no consistent biological way to separate "one race" from "another race", we categorise people into different races through arbitrary criteria. Interestingly I would argue that all the things you listed as categorisations are also social constructs except for humanity. I'll go through them quickly.

Family is primarily determined through being related to someone, but not always. There's no consistent definition. Are a married couple and their adopted children family? Is everyone descended from Ghenghis Khan a family? Clans/Tribes/Ethnicity is primarily determined by ancestry and where you are born, but that's still arbitrary. Is a person whose grandparents immigrated from France to the United States a Frenchman or an American? Are all Americans descended from the original settlers actually English? Our understanding of these concepts have morphed and changed over time and that includes race.

I guess my point is that the way we group people into races is arbitrary and says very little about the people within these groups outside of the way society treats people considered to be parts of these groups.

 

[NinjaCow64]

@civver_764 I would still like to hear your answer to my question.

 

[Perfection]

Seems more of an argument for going our separate ways.

You can't uncook an egg, mate.

You don't even believe this.

Why wouldn't I?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

But you wouldn't deny religion exists.

Eh, I might not be grasping your point too securely

Exactly. Likewise someone accusing someone else of being racist isn't denying racism exists.

In this analogy, race is to God what racism is to belief in God.

 

[civver_764]

I dont think it was their own people doing that, the slave trade was based on ethnicity or tribalism. Thats like saying Cromwell slaughtered his own people, the Irish would disagree. And while its true many black people here have it better than W Africa, maybe it would be nicer in W Africa if the place wasn't torn apart by the slave trade.

You mean the slave trade that existed before Europeans took part in it, and that still exists today?

Populations were smaller back then...

They weren't that much smaller.

but we reap what we sow. Maybe we shouldn't be making black neighborhoods ground zero for our drug war.

I know you're fond of the whole "Democrats are the real racists" schtick, but c'mon. You really believe that whites deserve to be killed by black people because of the drug war? You really think all of the problems with the black community are because of the drug war?

But our terrorism of black people was not limited to lynchings, do your stats show how many black people were killed or murdered via all the other means employed by the states and their 'militias'? You're comparing individual black murderers with the state and its various weapons. Wanna bet more black people have been killed by white people in this country's history? I'll take that bet...

I think you're very likely to lose that bet, judging by the crime statistics.

@civver_764 I would still like to hear your answer to my question.

I find your question to be disingenuous.

You can't uncook an egg, mate.

I mean look at Haiti, Zimbabwe, etc. - they drove/killed all the White people out.

Why wouldn't I?

Because the whole "without White people everything would have been awesome" explanation is too simplistic for you.

 

[Perfection]

I mean look at Haiti, Zimbabwe, etc. - they drove/killed all the White people out.

Point being?

Because the whole "without White people everything would have been awesome" explanation is too simplistic for you.

Doesn't mean white colonialism wasn't a scourge on the African continent that left deep scars and difficulties that take a long time to rectify.

 

[Berzerker]

The point is that racism does exists (and unfortunately, we don't have to look very far to confirm that). That only acknowledges that the concept of race exists and does not make a statement whether that concept has any ties to reality. Compare that to unicorns: It is generally understood what those are supposed to be, so the concept exists, but that doesn't mean there are any.

You can call someone a racist without acknowledging the existence of race the same way as you can call someone a flat-earther or a creationist without acknowledging that there is any truth to the concept of a flat earth or creationism.

But the Earth (and race) exists, how we characterize it doesn't really matter. There are steps between me being Irish and my ultimate African ancestry, maybe 200-300 kya. I dont have a problem if 'race' is a word used to describe one or more of those steps. Some day we'll be able to trace our bloodlines all the way back to Africa, somewhere along that line we'll find larger groups from which our clans and tribes and ethnicities separated. I might not view Neanderthals as a race, they'd be more like a sub-species. But my ancestors who interbred with them a bit might be a race, one to which I belong.

However, you are not totally wrong. Sometimes I feel that well-intentioned people who try to fight racism are buying way too much into the concept of race. I get that to help people disadvantaged by racism, you need to identify those people first. But the question "what race are you?" (or a sugar-coated wording thereof) I have encountered on a form of an American organization that was trying to promote diversity was already way too racist for me.

I guess my problem is equating racism with acknowledging race. Somehow the belief that one is superior to an entire group of people based on race has become no different than believing people evolved into different groups and race is a way of acknowledging them. The latter has nothing to do with feeling superior. Yes, 'race' is poorly defined... I thought the reason for that is because race was meant to cover the step(s) separating tribe and ethnicity from all of humanity and there's more ambiguity involved.

You mean the slave trade that existed before Europeans took part in it, and that still exists today?

Yes... Europeans made it much more profitable for a local chief to abduct people from the neighboring tribe. That means more war, more desolation, and millions lost their lives as a result.

I know you're fond of the whole "Democrats are the real racists" schtick, but c'mon. You really believe that whites deserve to be killed by black people because of the drug war? You really think all of the problems with the black community are because of the drug war?

Me? I never said Democrats are the real racists. Maybe you got that from someone debating me. I think racism aint limited to one party. I didn't say murder victims deserve to be murdered, I said we had a hand in creating the situation. I do believe most of the problems we see in black communities are the result of slavery, Jim Crow, and the drug war. Welfare programs also work to erode the family structure, but they exist mainly because so many fathers are either dead or in jail because of the drug war. The ones who aint were driven out of their homes away from their families because welfare required their disappearance. It was considered unwise to provide welfare to families with an able-bodied father who wasn't working I guess.

I think you're very likely to lose that bet, judging by the crime statistics.

How many people died on slave ships crossing the Atlantic? Can we count them among the victims of white people? How much you wanna bet? A grand?

 

[Crezth]

Are you defending slavery?

Of course he is. Might maketh right in the authoritarian's mind. As Thomas Jefferson said, "It is better to have some bread and be a slave than to experience freedom, which is mostly inconvenient and which the Negroid cannot truly appreciate."

 

[Crezth]

To a black person living in America slavery was a definitely a good thing. As a result, they get the benefit of living in a nice, first-world country. I doubt any of them would have rather been born in Africa. And I doubt many of them are dying to move there.

This idiot thinks it's better to be shot dead in an American slum than to have a vote in a sovereign developing nation.

Moderator Action: One...
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Berzerker]

He thinks black people have it better here... Is he wrong? I think he's posing the wrong question: did W Africans sold into slavery have it better than the W Africans selling them into slavery?