If Israel were a civ, what would be its specifics?

[Bianezzi]

there are plenty of Israel mods out there...

 

[ChunkyLover53]

I feel somewhat obligated to defend israel in this unfortunately too politicized thread. In regards to the issues about the settlements...don't you think it says something about the palestinians that if there were a palestinian state, the jewish settlers would have to be kicked out? Does nobody else realize the hypocrisy and obvious lack of human rights related whatnot there?

BTW, i recognize that this is off topic but it disturbs me how one sided the argument here seems.

Back to the original topic: I agree that ancient israel would be much better for the leaders (if only because they were simply better leaders than most modern israeli leaders). And I think that David would be better than Solomon overall because of his overall name recognition and influence, even to the present day. As for traits....maybe charismatic/creative? He did write quite a few psalms as we know.

 

[Duuk]

David IMP/CRE or AGG/ORG would both be fine.

UU: Maccabee (swordsman +1 +50% attack vs Praetorian)
UB: Kibbutz (replaces supermarket, +2 )

 

[cybrxkhan]

UU: Maccabee (swordsman +1 +50% attack vs Praetorian)

why not swordsman?

 

[Duuk]

why not swordsman?

Because the Maccabeen revolt successfully tossed the Romans out of Jerusalem (for a bit ). Now, if +50% vs swordsman would also affect Praets, I'd be fine with that as a bonus. Otherwise, +50% vs praets and +1 is plenty good enough.

 

[biggamer132]

I'm a Muslim, and I wouldn't have a problem with an Israeli civ. If I had to choose between ancient and modern Israel, though, I'd definitely have to go with the ancients because they have far more recognizable leaders.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Because the Maccabeen revolt successfully tossed the Romans out of Jerusalem (for a bit ). Now, if +50% vs swordsman would also affect Praets, I'd be fine with that as a bonus. Otherwise, +50% vs praets and +1 is plenty good enough.

i'm well aware of that part of history...

how about +50% attack vs. all Roman units (and Byzantine and (Holy) Roman units for that matter )

 

[Gaius Octavius]

You're all forgetting the part after the Romans got kicked out... Oh, sure, they play Masada up as a victory, but that's kind of silly. Titus and the Romans came back with a vengeance, leveled Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and took the spoils back to Rome. (Google the Arch of Titus and tell me what you see in the images.) All of the people at Masada, except two I think, killed themselves rather than be paraded in a triumph in Rome. Either way, the Romans won. A few decades later, the emperor Hadrian renamed the province of Judea to Syria-Palestine and Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina after another Jewish revolt as a punishment.

So yeah, give the Maccabee a +50% bonus against the Legion... then have it spawn about 30 more Legions after a few turns. The Romans don't like to lose.

Please don't mention Adrianople.

 

[ChunkyLover53]

While the romans did ultimately defeat the jews in their revolts (there were 3), it can definitely be argued that the success of the revolts were the beginning of the end of the roman empire. Sure, the jews were smashed by the romans, but the jews did control palestine for....i believe 3 years (67-70). correct me if i'm wrong on that one. anyways, after the jews, many of the other areas under roman control began to rebel as well.

 

[Jamesds]

All of the people at Masada, except two I think, killed themselves rather than be paraded in a triumph in Rome

Yes, and worse - the Romans were a rather brutal bunch, and they probably awaited death and possible torture. I can understand their sorry end.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

I doubt the Hebrews getting brutally crushed inspired people to revolt against the Romans. 350 years before the fact is also a bit of a large gap to be listed as a cause of an empire's fall. The empire came to rely upon non-Romans for their army, and failed to adapt over time. The Huns and the other semi-nomadic and nomadic invaders merely exposed to what degree the Roman empire had decayed, and how incapable it was of protecting itself.

As for the question of Israel, I think its improper to pretend the modern state doesn't exist and isn't a continuation of the ancient one. I would like to avoid getting into a debate about that issue, but suffice to say what has kept Jews together since the diaspora is their religion, and this was strong enough a binding for them to strive for a homeland where their ancestors had their's, through means fair and foul. Furthermore, Israel's impact upon the world cannot be understated, as it has had a very major impact on the foreign policy not only of its Arab neighbors, but also of the superpowers.

Without that, it doesn't deserve inclusion over the Hittites or Assyrians. With it...it is both ancient...and modern.

 

[Jamesds]

^^ Yes, that is true - Israel exists in the modern times and has existed since the ancient times. However, I would be happy for a compromise if they could be included if only as the ancient nation of Israel.

 

[cybrxkhan]

i think the best compromise for Ancient and Modern Israel is thus:


- Ancient Israel can be represented by the leader, David or Solomon, which most don't have much a problem with
- "Classical Age" Israel can be represented by a Macabee UU
- Modern Israel can be represented by the Kibbitz. nothing much wrong with that, Arabs wouldn't care as much as more representation

 

[GeneralMatt]

i think the best compromise for Ancient and Modern Israel is thus:


- Ancient Israel can be represented by the leader, David or Solomon, which most don't have much a problem with
- "Classical Age" Israel can be represented by a Macabee UU
- Modern Israel can be represented by the Kibbitz. nothing much wrong with that, Arabs wouldn't care as much as more representation

That would probably work best..

The funny thing is, we all are worrying about offending the Arabs, don't you all think Civ IV might offend some Israelites in this world 'cause the Arabs are in it? Hmm..

I think that the Kibbutz would give more culture. Israelite or Jewish culture spread all through Europe and all that. Or maybe something that would represent there spirit in not giving up on (as aforementioned) a homeland..

 

[kooaznboi1088]

The Israeli(te) Empire
Starting Techs: Mysticism/Animal Husbandry
Leaders:
Solomon (Spiritual/Philosophical) Book of Proverbs/Famous wisdom?
Golda Meir (Protective/Spiritual) Zionist leader
UU: Mossad (+1 Move/More effective in Counterespionage)
UB: Kibbutz (replaces supermarket, +2 Food)

I don't like the Macabee idea for the UU because there are already too many UU that replace the swordsman and another one would be too plain. Plus the Macabees couldn't have been too different from the usual infantry of the day in that they couldn't have used different weapons etc. Plus Israel existed for a while before the Macabees and to base a UU on such a specific time period for Israel would seem drab.

I understand the potential controversy in putting Israel in. But honestly there is no pratical reason not to. Unlike the Hitler addition sales won't go down and can possibly go up. And in terms of civilization Israel has had a LOT of impact on culture/warfare/finances. They were in existance as a culture since the Ancient times. And if Sid Meir included Korea/Ethiopia/Native American/Portuguese than I do not see the excuse for excluding Israel. Plus Israel during Solomon's time was considered a respectable power. They did subjugate a lot of their neighbors in the time of the Judges too. And they have official recognization as an independent power from most of the world...

 

[Cu Chulainn]

I'm not sure the hebrew civ can be separated from Judaism. Ancient Israel is nothing without it. They'd be less significant than the Hittites without their religious influence and the modern state would not exist at all without Zionism. It seems to me that the civ is best represented by the Jewish religion already in the game.

 

[LightSpectra]

I'm not sure the hebrew civ can be separated from Judaism.

I'm not sure how Arabia can be separated from Islam.

 

[SickCycle]

Financial / Spiritual

Starting Techs could be Myst / Mining or something that puts them on a quick path for monotheism.

UB / UU .. who knows, maybe mix old with new. A religious building that cuts down on corporation costs and the unit should be modern aggressive, maybe a machine gunner with a reduced bonus vs gunpowder that can attack.

 

[IAM]

Leader of the Jewish state AH

 

[hossam]

if there going to add a modern israel i dont see why they shouldnt add adolf hitler.