If Israel were a civ, what would be its specifics?

[SickCycle]

Didn't you know? There was no Adolf Hitler, that name you refer to was banished from history, he doesn't exist, that's why he's not in the game even though he should be.

Seriously it happens from time to time, someone does something very bad and all of a sudden it's not politically correct to even talk about him so eventually they fade away.

Sucks to be him, they will remember him in a few thousand years.

If they put Adolf in this game with kids playing it, the bleeding hearts would freeeaaak. Sorry but thats how it is.

 

[SickCycle]

I associate Israel with Jews in general, and I have to say that in America every Jewish person I know is wealthy, there parents own some sort of business and it's most likely a jewelry store.

 

[vodlaian]

Seriously it happens from time to time, someone does something very bad and all of a sudden it's not politically correct to even talk about him so eventually they fade away. .

I don't think you got the point

Anyhow, if they add modern israel, here should be some of the details:
- Can settle within the borders of any civ
- +happiness for every citizen you kill in any city not of your religion (bonus if you raise the city)
- Can bribe the strongest player in the game to become your vassale (regardless of power/attitude) (requires mass media)
- Ability to use your religion to stage holy wars which results in no war weariness.

 

[Alternator]

I don't think you got the point

Anyhow, if they add modern israel, here should be some of the details:
- Can settle within the borders of any civ
- +happiness for every citizen you kill in any city not of your religion (bonus if you raise the city)
- Can bribe the strongest player in the game to become your vassale (regardless of power/attitude) (requires mass media)
- Ability to use your religion to stage holy wars which results in no war weariness.

Nice bit of trolling there, I give it a 6/10.

Possibly a UU of the Slinger, replaces the Archer? Not sure what kind of stats for it; maybe Str 2 but give +100% on the attack or something?

 

[Blaze96]

The Israeli national power should be that they can buy units from any other civ. Since lets look at history and the bible the Egyptians send the Israelites out of their servitude with weapons fully armed it is only when they start going back to the warrior culture they were that the pharaoh chased them, and in the modern day the Israeli army uses American, Russian, and self-made weapons, so wouldn't it make sense that they can take other civs units.

 

[SickCycle]

I don't think you got the point

Anyhow, if they add modern israel, here should be some of the details:
- Can settle within the borders of any civ
- +happiness for every citizen you kill in any city not of your religion (bonus if you raise the city)
- Can bribe the strongest player in the game to become your vassale (regardless of power/attitude) (requires mass media)
- Ability to use your religion to stage holy wars which results in no war weariness.

Hah, I get what your saying but only because I understand what your hinting at from what I've read in the media/time and such.

Link me to some articles on Israel committing genocide style events.. Similar to the U.S. in Iraq you know 655,000 civilians have died because of the war.. I know they are illegally (aggressively) expanding into the surrounding borders and that is what a lot of the conflict is from but they suppress it somewhat in the news and make them look like the good guys in the U.S.

A few years ago Israel bordered an American Military ship I believe (cant recall the class) I want to say a carrier but that is to large, maybe some type of destroyer or more likely a patrol boat, but anyway they killed all the american personal I think it was as recent as 1984 or something.

 

[George2816]

Hah, I get what your saying but only because I understand what your hinting at from what I've read in the media/time and such.

Link me to some articles on Israel committing genocide style events.. Similar to the U.S. in Iraq you know 655,000 civilians have died because of the war.. I know they are illegally (aggressively) expanding into the surrounding borders and that is what a lot of the conflict is from but they suppress it somewhat in the news and make them look like the good guys in the U.S.

A few years ago Israel bordered an American Military ship I believe (cant recall the class) I want to say a carrier but that is to large, maybe some type of destroyer or more likely a patrol boat, but anyway they killed all the american personal I think it was as recent as 1984 or something.

USS liberty? It was attacked on 1967 You can google that stuff

 

[Peng Qi]

UB would be defense tunnels. They'd replace walls and give (-20%?) collateral damage.

UU? I might look to the modern era and give them a jet fighter or something.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

I would prefer not, IF Israel would be in the game, let it be ONLY the the Ancient state. The modern state is far to controversial.

So use ancient city-names, ancient UU, ancient UB and a ancient Leader.

Among many other problems, Isarel would frequently be another religion than Jewish, which would stick out even more than the other historical weirdnesses in the game. I mean, most of the others don't matter (I think it's funny when the Mongols build the Great Wall or Isabella becomes a Jew and starts wholy wars against anyone who isn't), but this one simply feels completely wrong. It's like having Vikings (Scandinavians) without berserkers.

Also, of course, while the Jewish religion is a no-brainer in the game, the ancient kingdom of Israel was never a truly great power and also did not last for very long. And the only connection with the modern state of Israel it has is the religion, which is already in the game.

OK, the question was which specifics it would have *if* it were in the game. The leaders would be David and Joshua, or perhaps David and Solomon. Unique building should be synagogue, but once again, that isn't possible... Someone suggested kibbutz, and I suppose that could replace... um... courthouse. Or jail. Unique unit? Sling thrower, of course - remember David and Goliath.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

As hard as it is, Israel also would need to be a seperate entity from Judaism in-game, meaning no Temple, Synagog, Tabernacle, etc. I'll put my vote behind the Kibbitz also as a UB, rounding out the historic spectrum of the civilization.

And the Kibitzer as a Unique Unit?

 

[Pikkis]

The thing is, the actual patriarchs of various religions aren't in the game. You'll note that Jesus isn't in as a Great Prophet. Abraham is solely a figure of religious significance: I wouldn't say he did any actual empire-leading.

Gandhi wasn't leader of the nation of India either. But he's well-known as well as Abraham.

David IMP/CRE or AGG/ORG would both be fine.

UU: Maccabee (swordsman +1 +50% attack vs Praetorian)
UB: Kibbutz (replaces supermarket, +2 )

why not swordsman?

Because the Maccabeen revolt successfully tossed the Romans out of Jerusalem (for a bit ). Now, if +50% vs swordsman would also affect Praets, I'd be fine with that as a bonus. Otherwise, +50% vs praets and +1 is plenty good enough.

+50% attack vs. Swordsman would also affect Praetorians, like Chariot's attack bonus also affects Vultures. Extra movement is overpowered, I think (for my suggestion, see below).

Does +2 food mean extra 2 food or total of 2 food (Supermarket already gives one). Extra 2 food would be much better as otherwise Kibbutz would be completely in the shadow of Baray (I didn't chose it for my suggestion though).

Why ancient Israel when Phoenicians and Hitites are not in the game?

Israel wasn't a middle east power in ancient times, but they are a regional power nowdays, so IMO it makes more sense to give them a modern leader and UU.

I agree that Hittites should be in CivIV more than Israel, but if they make one more expansion to it, they will add plenty of civs, I think. About Phoenicians, we already have a colony of them (Carthage).

This is my suggestion (it may be a little overpowered):

Israelite Empire (Israeli Empire would mean the current Israel)
Leader One: Solomon (Creative/Spiritual, favors Theocracy)
Starting Techs: Mysticism, The Wheel
Unique Unit: Macabee (replaces Swordsman, +50% attack vs. Swordsman (and its UUs), immune to first strikes, costs 30 hammers instead of 40)
Unique Building: Altar (replaces Courthouse, requires Monotheism instead of Code of Laws, can turn 2 citizens into Priest in addition to 1 citizen into Spy, +1 happiness from Incense, +1 culture from state religion buildings in city)

I chose Solomon, because David is only mentioned in the Bible and possibly in the Tel Dan Stele, so he isn't historically confirmed person.

Should Altar provide rather research or gold (instead of culture) from state religion buildings, what do you think?

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Well Abraham was Israel/Jacob's grandfather , so he's the Charlamagne of this proposed civ.

Yes, Abraham was not an Israeli or a Jew. He was the ancestor of Israel, and of Judah. And of the Edomites, the Moabites, the Arabs, the this and that.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

While the romans did ultimately defeat the jews in their revolts (there were 3), it can definitely be argued that the success of the revolts were the beginning of the end of the roman empire. Sure, the jews were smashed by the romans, but the jews did control palestine for....i believe 3 years (67-70). correct me if i'm wrong on that one. anyways, after the jews, many of the other areas under roman control began to rebel as well.

The beginning of the end? The Jewish revolts had nothing to do with the ultimate downfall of the Roman Empire. That happened much later, and though there is much discussion of the reason(s) for it, a couple of rebellions in a minor province when Rome was at its height as a power is not one of them.

 

[Tanktunker]

I don't think you got the point

Anyhow, if they add modern israel, here should be some of the details:
- Can settle within the borders of any civ
- +happiness for every citizen you kill in any city not of your religion (bonus if you raise the city)
- Can bribe the strongest player in the game to become your vassale (regardless of power/attitude) (requires mass media)
- Ability to use your religion to stage holy wars which results in no war weariness.

What's funny here, is that all of this applies to the Arabs too, only much more so.

And the Kibitzer as a Unique Unit?

Kibutznik not kibitzer.

The UB should definitely be a religious court, like a normal courthouse, but +2 for great prophet.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

I'm not sure how Arabia can be separated from Islam.

It can. The Arabs existed long before Islam did, and to this day there are many Christian Arabs. And many of the Christian Arabs were Christians before Islam arose.

There was even a Roman Emperor called Philippus Arabs - Philip the Arab. He was not a Muslim, for obvious reasons.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Kibutznik not kibitzer.

I was trying to be funny. Sorry about that...

 

[Öjevind Lång]

If they put Adolf in this game with kids playing it, the bleeding hearts would freeeaaak. Sorry but thats how it is.

This bleeding heart would definitely freak if AH was included. Anyway, Firaxis have declared that they are not going to include him, and the moderators here have declared that they will shut down any thread that calls for his inclusion. Just for your information.

 

[Troymk1]

It would only be playable in One City challenges....

 

[Ikael]

I am more partial towards a good mix of ancient Israel and modern israel. I think that King David and Salomon are the more recognizable Israel leaders. Ben Gurion is not as widely known (he doesn' appear in the Bible you know ) and is more polemic. So my choice would be:

King David: Protective, charismatic

or

Solomon: Spiritual, Philosophic

Unique building: Mossad (replaces intelligence agency, generates 11 spy points intead of 8). A very powerful UB since it comes late in the game, it allows israel to become a spyionage superpower (pretty much as it is today).

Unique unit: Maccabee
Replaces axeman, starts with guerrilla promotion.
A nice, representative ancient unit (way less polemic than a modern day one).

 

[Locutus]

I came up with all the UUs, UBs, city lists, etc for all the civs in BtS (and a good number of the ones in Warlords and Civ4) and I always did extensive research to make sure my ideas were well grounded in history. I've not done such a thing for any Israeli(te) civ and if Firaxis would ask for my advice again on this that would be the first thing I'd do. But if I had to make a call now my first instinct would be:

Leader: Solomon (Philosophical/Industrious would be perfect for him if you could find a way to balance it)
(Allegedly) brought ancient Israel its golden age, built the First Temple (and much more), source of much judicial and religious wisdom. Plus, of the great leaders from the religious scriptures (the likes of Moses, Joshua, David, etc) probably the one whose accomplishments are best supported by other historic evidence (external sources, archeology), which is fairly rare when it comes to pre-Hasmonean Israel.

Unique Building: Yeshiva
Academic-level Talmud school and also the name of the entire religious education system (replaces University; effect: spreads religion? otherwise culture bonus).

Unique Unit: Maccabee
Guerrilla fighters who created the Hasmonean kingdom in the 2nd c. BC (replaces Spearman or Axeman; effect: starts with Guerilla I & II?)

City list: Jerusalem, Samaria, Shechem, Hebron, Gibeah, Shiloh, Jaffa, Bethel, Lachish, Be'er Shiva, etc
Mostly based on the Kingdoms of Israel and Judea (9th - 5th c. BC), maybe a little bit on the Hasmodean kingdom (2nd - 1st c. BC) but probably no modern cities (like Tel Aviv, Haifa, Rishon, etc).


As for modern vs ancient Israel, there can be no question, at least as far as an official XP or whatever by Firaxis is concerned. Firaxis generally tends to avoid any kind of controversy (admittedly with varying degrees of success) and pretty much the entire modern age beyond 1960 is left out of the game (apart from the Internet, Apollo Program, Mao and 4 or 5 Great People they use very generic names and descriptions for later stuff or didn't include it at all) -- Sid commented once that the history in Civilization is basically everything that happened before our (read: his) lifetime. There's just no room for modern Israel in such an approach: it's rife with controversy and you've only got 10-20 years to work with, which is nothing for game with a scope of 6 millennia. A combo of both eras is not worth considering IMO, ancient Israel has about as much in common with modern Israel as the Roman Empire with Morocco.