If Israel were a civ, what would be its specifics?

[MagisterCultuum]

What first came to mind when I was thinking of a Israeli (this is a proper term for the ancient Israelites as well, as it is a transliteration of what they are called in Hebrew while Israelite comes from the Latinized form) UU was the first military use of an UAV. I forget the details, but it was basically a small toy airplane modified to appear as a large fighter or bomber on enemy radar. The enemy and anti-aircraft artillery would attack the "toy," revealing their position to the real air force, which would swoop in and annihilate them before they could reload. I was thinking they might make a nice replacement for the Airship, one which is very cheap and has a a huge bonus versus SAM Infantry, Mobile SAM, and possibly artillery (but less strength). It would also be cool if instead of a bonus bombarding against them its attack could make them lose the ability to attack on their next turn.

I would chose the leader to be David (Spiritual/Charismatic) and/or Solomon (Philosophical/Industrious). The Kibbutz, Yeshiva, and Mossad all seem fine to me.

 

[ranLR]

A combo of both eras is not worth considering IMO, ancient Israel has about as much in common with modern Israel as the Roman Empire with Morocco.

I beg to differ, since the whole world was more then happy to make that connection very clear until the 1990's (lookup "go back to Palestine you dirty J--" circa 0AD-1948AD)

Anyway, IMHO civs "deserving" to be in CIV are those that had a notable cultural impact on the rest of the world, thereby making ancient Israel a necessity.
Also, modern India was also formed in 1947, and no real political connection between the Ghandi family India and Ashoka's India can be made except geographical (which applies to Israel too).

Leaders should be David & Solomon, UU should be Maccabis (Swordman +1 movement w/o terrain cost, +50% vs. swordmen) UB should be a Yeshiva (Library +50% knowledge)

 

[Elandal]

UU should be Maccabis (Swordman +1 movement w/o terrain cost, +50% vs. swordmen) UB should be a Yeshiva (Library +50% knowledge)

Both overpowered.

Korea has Seowon, University with +65% research, which is +15% more than University does. Comparably, Library comes a lot earlier than University so the bonus should be smaller. Maybe +35% (10% higher than basic library) would be reasonable.

Also, Swordsman that has the same bonus as Impi + another bonus is too much. One or the other sounds OK, but both not.

 

[dragodon64]

I never understand why, when people are suggesting new UUs, UBs, traits, normal units, buildings, wonders, etc., they sometimes give them such outrageous abilities. This isn't just an attack on ranLR, but I've seen it quite often on these forums.

 

[K.F. Huszár]

Hey everyone.

I haven't loughed so much since I began reading these threads

Glad to know that many people who are playing this game are so funny.

About Israel: I am sure there is an Isrealite mod. I suppose it must have been done by some Israeli guys (or girls, who knows).

But about the topic's debate: designers of Firaxis did not understand that History is not politically correct. Or they did, but realized that some powers in the world expect political correctness That's why they did not include Adolf Hitler. It was a huge debate here two years ago or so.

The inclusion of Israel as a civ is NOT a question of tolerance against Muslims or political correctness. It is a question of historical facts. And these facts will prove that Israel was not an important civilization - even more, it was a not a civilization, it was a part of Ancient Semite World. So, Israel was never a civilization in the meaning in which the word is used in the game.

So, if Israel is to be included in the game it must be done in very new way: like "hiding civilization" being able to live among the "gentiles" (or goyim = us) and being able to recover

(otherwise, in a scenario I would play it)

 

[TriviAl]

I have a proposal for a new civ.

The 3rd Reich

Spoiler :

Leader Hitler (starts with all traits and techs)

UU: Mega giga death panzer luftwaffe ninja tank. Replaces Spearman. 10 move, flying - ignoring all terrain costs/restrictions - including mountains and seas, 500 strength, stats with 1 bajillion xp and a 'Lazer'.

UU2: Reich Settler. Cannot move and auto settles at the start of the first turn.

UB: Godwins law. Replaces palace. Causes you to instantly lose the game.


The all traits and techs is to settle the argument about what hitlers traits might have been.

 

[jac0001]

Seriously, if they get offended at such a name, why must we alter it just to suit them? If a muslim is offended by the inclusion of an Israeli civ, well I'm sorry but that is really their problem. QUOTE]

LOL the issue with adding Israel has very little to do with muslims being offended.

How many jews would like to see a game where players get to destroy the nation of Israel and wipe them off the map?

 

[Mesix]

Why not have a mossad UU that replaces the spy. Like a super spy.

 

[Pikkis]

Both overpowered.

Korea has Seowon, University with +65% research, which is +15% more than University does. Comparably, Library comes a lot earlier than University so the bonus should be smaller. Maybe +35% (10% higher than basic library) would be reasonable.

Also, Swordsman that has the same bonus as Impi + another bonus is too much. One or the other sounds OK, but both not.

University has only +25% research bonus and Seowon only +35% research bonus (difference is only 10 percentage points, not 15). Maybe Library with 3 possible Scientists (instead of 2) and +5% research bonus would be balanced (or 4 possible Scientists and no research bonus), if Yeshiva would be Israel's unique building (which I think would not be good, because conceptually it's very much like Madrassa (studying is based on the holy book)).

Also, it has even bigger bonus than Impi's bonus + Swordsman bonus, because Impi's Mobility promo means that it still has only 1 movement in hills+jungle/forest terrain.

P.S. What do you think about my Macabee suggestion in post #111?

 

[sabremookie]

Hey everyone.

I haven't loughed so much since I began reading these threads

Glad to know that many people who are playing this game are so funny.

About Israel: I am sure there is an Isrealite mod. I suppose it must have been done by some Israeli guys (or girls, who knows).

But about the topic's debate: designers of Firaxis did not understand that History is not politically correct. Or they did, but realized that some powers in the world expect political correctness That's why they did not include Adolf Hitler. It was a huge debate here two years ago or so.

The inclusion of Israel as a civ is NOT a question of tolerance against Muslims or political correctness. It is a question of historical facts. And these facts will prove that Israel was not an important civilization - even more, it was a not a civilization, it was a part of Ancient Semite World. So, Israel was never a civilization in the meaning in which the word is used in the game.

So, if Israel is to be included in the game it must be done in very new way: like "hiding civilization" being able to live among the "gentiles" (or goyim = us) and being able to recover

(otherwise, in a scenario I would play it)

You are an ignoramous who doesn't know history. Stick to playing the game, but please don't try to sound intelligent, because you are not.

 

[solvero]

First thing, this topic is way too politic. If you are anti-semite you don't have to write it here.
Many people also talked about the conflict between modern Israel and Palestine without showing any knowledge about what is really going on, and sound as if they are just listening for the media without any thinking.

As a jew and an Israeli I don't mind to see others conquer Israel as someone mentioned. I think Israel deserves a place in Civilization for its impact on the world- but it is definitely not a civ you must include. Its main effect on the world is the bible, which influenced modern culture a lot. Other than this, ancient Israel was never a great superpower. Modern Israel is far more influencing on the world, and for this reason I think it can be included.

Now, ancient leaders David and Solomon are great, as well as modern Ben Gurion. Others would really be too controversial.
UU should be from the modern strong Israeli army- Tank Merkava or some kind of a plane. It can also be a Mossad Agent- a unit that will be a stronger spy.
I don't like the idea of a kibutz UB because it's not a building. It can focus on Israel's strong Hi-Tech and economy or some espionage building.

 

[nimling]

politicial correctness aside, i would put their traits as chm/cre (being one of the few unused combinations left, and the only one that isn't pathetically weak or overpowered), and give them an enhanced intelligence agency as their UB.

UU i'm not sure of. i don't know enough about ancient history to suggest the strengths of the maccabee... maybe an axe or even warrior with move 2, or a bonus to city defense?

leader's favored civic should be OR, or possibly police state (though THAT would certainly rile people up)...

 

[Elandal]

My bad on Seowon. I was confusing it with Stock Market.

Maybe Library with 3 possible Scientists (instead of 2) and +5% research bonus would be balanced (or 4 possible Scientists and no research bonus),

Ability to run more scientists is very large. I'd say two scientists is worth more than two prophets early on, and later on the two extra scientists might be enough to not necessitate Caste System.
As an interesting note Seowon and Research Institute are the only UBs currently that affect research - Seowon by higher research multiplier and Research Institute by adding free scientists. Madrassa - the early game research building UB - doesn't add to research rate in any way, but rather allows running priests in addition to scientists (effect is identical to Obelisk vs Monument).

I guess two extra scientist slots or +10% research, or indeed one extra scientist slot and +5% research is possible from game balance point of view. Obviously Creative leaders (faster production speed of Library) and Philosophical leaders (who'll drool on those scientist slots) may feel quite strong with this UB.

P.S. What do you think about my Macabee suggestion in post #111?

Lowering Swordsman hammer cost by 25% is a lot. Too much IMO. Immunity to FS is fairly strong, but as with Holkan, not enough alone. Adding +50% bonus against a unit type that is rarely opponent is a bit of meh, so something more is indeed needed. Maybe lower hammer cost by 10% (from 40 to 36) but I'd rather see something creative here - I value interesting unique units more than historically accurate ones

Compare Altar to Ziggurat. Oops
OK, so Courthouse at Monotheism. And ONE extra bonus - be that priest slot, happiness from incense, or whatever. But no more than one added bonus, as getting it with early tech is a big bonus in itself. And no, it can't add research or gold from SR buildings, it can add culture though. If it added gold, it'd allow practically no-cost rexing where cities will need to build Temple (cheap for Spi), Altar, and Monastery - after which they practically already cover their own costs.

 

[Fireseal]

I haven't read this thread, but if theres gonna be an isreal civ, then there should also be a CANADA civ!

 

[jessiecat]

I haven't read this thread, but if theres gonna be an isreal civ, then there should also be a CANADA civ!

I suppose I should agree, as a Canadian living in Europe. But I don't.
Neither do I agree about an Israel civ. Judaism as a religion was and is
hugely influential but as a civ. not really. Everybody would like their tribe
to be included, but there is a limit. I'd rather have more Native American
civs than one to reflect very different societies and economies. Like the
Iroquois, Cherokee, Nootka, etc.

 

[defender7]

Hmmm.. unique building- Jewish lobby. + x% ,after america has trade relations.
Or the "Not so great wall"- smaller than china or berlins, but larger than the warsaw ghetto, this wall adds +1 unhealthiness to cities nearby.
UU- another hard one. The Israeli Armored U.S. made Caterpillar D9 — nicknamed Doobi (Hebrew: דובי‎; lit. teddy bear) ? destroys/pillages towns in one turn. Or the settler- +50% house build.
Leader Ron J. Hyatt (fin/cre)

 

[jessiecat]

Hmmm.. unique building- Jewish lobby. + x% ,after america has trade relations.
Or the "Not so great wall"- smaller than china or berlins, but larger than the warsaw ghetto, this wall adds +1 unhealthiness to cities nearby.
UU- another hard one. The Israeli Armored U.S. made Caterpillar D9 — nicknamed Doobi (Hebrew: דובי‎; lit. teddy bear) ? destroys/pillages towns in one turn. Or the settler- +50% house build.
Leader Ron J. Hyatt (fin/cre)

Not Bad. How about;
Leader- Joshua (Charismatic/Imperialistic)
U.B - Kibbutz (ability to build settlements in enemy territory)
U.U - Joshua's Horn (+ 100% against walls)

Whatever became of the Canaanites, anyway?

 

[The_Reckoning]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea

It doesn't really hang around for long enough to count, IMO. It'd stil be an interesting addition.

And there are plenty of overlapping Civs in the game. The Greeks and Byzantines, the Germans and Holy Romans, Americans and and Native Americans.

I do like the idea of a special spy unit. Maybe cheaper and move 3?

 

[K.F. Huszár]

You are an ignoramous who doesn't know history. Stick to playing the game, but please don't try to sound intelligent, because you are not.

Dear Sabremookie. I would like to inform you that I am a historian. This is my daily food

Instead of mocking would you be so kind to descend to explain your view?

 

[jessiecat]

Dear Sabremookie. I would like to inform you that I am a historian. This is my daily food

Instead of mocking would you be so kind to descend to explain your view?

I doubt he has a view by the sound of it, at least not the intelligent kind
that most of us might understand. I'm also a historian and facts are important
to me as well. Hate to say it but he really sounds like some pimply-faced
teenager raging at a world he clearly doesn't yet understand
and is initimidated by your well-considered post.

Just proves that it takes all sorts to be a Civ fanatic.