If we could be "a fly" on the wall ....

[Fistalis]

Jon did a very good job on BTS. Besides the Final Frontier mod, Jon was mainly responsible for the initial design of the espionage feature in BTS, as well as the initial implementation of Advanced Start. Of course at that time he was not a programmer, so his features needed to be polished for release.

Yay the exact person i was hoping would clear some of my speculation actually did

 

[alexman]

one must remember that an expansion is simply adding to someone elses(soren johnsons) base design.. where as giving him lead on a new project allows for him to make his own base design. Which is why civ V is what it is and civ IV bts is what it is.

This is very true. My job was amazingly easy because of the good foundation of Civ4, and because of the excellent suggestions in these forums. In fact, suggestions from here were often in the form of source code, so we didn't even have to implement them ourselves! When there is no existing game, suggestions are often irrelevant.

Another benefit of working on an expansion pack is that players have already figured out what works and what doesn't in terms of strategy and tactics, and this knowledge can be used to improve the AI, or balance the game. When you are working on a game from scratch, the AI and balance are much harder to get right, especially when you don't have multiplayer working until late in the development cycle.

 

[neptune2000]

This is very true. My job was amazingly easy because of the good foundation of Civ4, and because of the excellent suggestions in these forums. In fact, suggestions from here were often in the form of source code, so we didn't even have to implement them ourselves! When there is no existing game, suggestions are often irrelevant.

Another benefit of working on an expansion pack is that players have already figured out what works and what doesn't in terms of strategy and tactics, and this knowledge can be used to improve the AI, or balance the game. When you are working on a game from scratch, the AI and balance are much harder to get right, especially when you don't have multiplayer working until late in the development cycle.

Give yourself some credit! You're right though, it's easier, barring certain structural problems, to make something better for people when they've had a chance to actually use it, but that's where extensive testing comes in (granted it's not the same as the real-world testing that you get prior to an expansion). It just seems like they almost skipped that step. There are numerous things that feel completely out of balance, things that could be tuned in time but could and should have been done before release.

 

[lschnarch]

Besides the Final Frontier mod, Jon was mainly responsible for the initial design of the espionage feature in BTS, as well as the initial implementation of Advanced Start.

I am pretty sure you haven't done him a favor mentioning his responsibility for the espionage system, as many defenders of Civ5 claim this to have been one of the very elements in Civ4 which they disliked.

 

[BubbaYeti]

This is very true. My job was amazingly easy because of the good foundation of Civ4

I wish Mr. Shafer et. al. would have built more upon civ IV than they did...adding their design ideas onto on already existing (and excellent) platform. It appears to me that too many things in civ V were build from scratch, hence it was hard to balance them all.

 

[bitula]

I just wonder is Jon also posting in civfanatic forums or just Alex. Anyway it's cool to see lead designers/developers posting here!

 

[Slowpoke]

Well, tbh I think it's kinda shafer's fault that his budget didn't last. I mean he designed the music scheme so over 100 musical pieces would be needed, and he spent a huge amount on eye candy. Would've been better spent on.. oh.. content and playtesting. Anyways, I'm probably wrong as I've never seen how a huge game gets developed. Would've been nice to get the special order so I could see the behind the scenes

 

[Fistalis]

I just wonder is Jon also posting in civfanatic forums or just Alex. Anyway it's cool to see lead designers/developers posting here!

Wouldn't be surprised if he was lurking or anon. posting. But as far as actual public posting the only site he's posted on post release was QT3. He hasn't even publicly posted on 2ks official web forums. Which is a whole other line of criticism I won't go into lol.

 

[CivFanaticMan]

I actually think they sold well in the first week. I mean I know a bunch of big civ fans pre ordered.

 

[SuperJay]

Wouldn't be surprised if he was lurking or anon. posting. But as far as actual public posting the only site he's posted on post release was QT3. He hasn't even publicly posted on 2ks official web forums. Which is a whole other line of criticism I won't go into lol.

He actually does have an account here at CFC, he just hasn't been using it. And I can't say I blame him, frankly. Even though I disagree with a lot of Civ5's design ideas, I'd hate to see Jon make an appearance here and get pilloried by an angry mob.

 

[Omega124]

He actually does have an account here at CFC, he just hasn't been using it. And I can't say I blame him, frankly. Even though I disagree with a lot of Civ5's design ideas, I'd hate to see Jon make an appearance here and get pilloried by an angry mob.

This is what Will Wright did when a certain developer for Spore was blamed for the destruction of the game (Believe me, the game is horrible and nothing like the 2007 Demo). He was very professional, and took the blame for the game. Everyone became a lot less enraged after this post. I think if Shafter did something similar, I think everyone would be more sympathetic

 

[SuperJay]

This is what Will Wright did when a certain developer for Spore was blamed for the destruction of the game (Believe me, the game is horrible and nothing like the 2007 Demo). He was very professional, and took the blame for the game. Everyone became a lot less enraged after this post. I think if Shafter did something similar, I think everyone would be more sympathetic

Cool read, thanks for posting that. While I think it'd be cool if Jon or another Firaxis personality made a similar gesture, I just don't think it's all that likely to happen. Plus, we're in the minority. Everyone else is happy with Civ5 and really enjoying its streamlined and organic gameplay, so why apologize at all?

 

[BubbaYeti]

This is what Will Wright did when a certain developer for Spore was blamed for the destruction of the game (Believe me, the game is horrible and nothing like the 2007 Demo).

Did spore ever get any better after patches/expansion packs? That's what the folks in the thread you linked were hoping for. Not sure it happened then, and not sure it will happen with civ v.

I for one wouldn't pillory Shafer, even though I am very disappointed in the game's many shortcomings. I would just ask a few pointed questions about the design process, the present plans for the game, and the future of the franchise.

 

[jackofallspades]

Plus, we're in the minority. Everyone else is happy with Civ5 and really enjoying its streamlined and organic gameplay, so why apologize at all?

As a john doe guy in the industry, oh man, that says so much

 

[ImperialGuard]

Did spore ever get any better after patches/expansion packs? That's what the folks in the thread you linked were hoping for. Not sure it happened then, and not sure it will happen with civ v.

I for one wouldn't pillory Shafer, even though I am very disappointed in the game's many shortcomings. I would just ask a few pointed questions about the design process, the present plans for the game, and the future of the franchise.

I agree.....I'd love to take him out for a beer and get his side of the story: past, present and future (and I'm talking about the game here....)

 

[Draginol]

I'm surprised no one has taken into account how much more involvement 2K had in Civ V than Civ IV. Civ Revolution changed a lot of things.

It is important to remember that the big publishers think that TBS is basically dead and no one plays them and the only way to "make money" is to appeal to a larger audience.

It's no coincidence that Civ V's release was matched up with 2K's fiscal year end.

As someone who has designed or helped design games people love (GalCiv, Sins) as well as games people didn't love (at least on release -- Elemental) I can tell you that game design is not where the rubber meets the road.

Or, to paraphrase -- tactics is for amateurs, logistics is for professionals. The design part of a game is very tactical in the bigger scheme of things. It's the logistics that matter.

I think one of the reasons Civ IV was such a success was that Firaxis was left alone to make a great game.

 

[PawelS]

I think one of the reasons Civ IV was such a success was that Firaxis was left alone to make a great game.

This doesn't always work, Stardock was left alone to make Elemental and it was't such a big success so far...

 

[SuperJay]

It's no coincidence that Civ V's release was matched up with 2K's fiscal year end.

Yeah, that particular point is rather significant, and some of us have commented on it elsewhere; it may explain the feeling that Civ5 was rushed out the door with a lot of band-aids on it.

As someone who has designed or helped design games people love (GalCiv, Sins) as well as games people didn't love (at least on release -- Elemental) I can tell you that game design is not where the rubber meets the road.

Or, to paraphrase -- tactics is for amateurs, logistics is for professionals. The design part of a game is very tactical in the bigger scheme of things. It's the logistics that matter.

Could you elaborate on this point a bit, when you have the chance? I'd like to hear more from a designer's perspective, and I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. Thanks.

 

[ImperialGuard]

Could you elaborate on this point a bit, when you have the chance? I'd like to hear more from a designer's perspective, and I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. Thanks.

I'd be curious to hear more too.....I am not sure I follow the "bigger scheme" beyond a design ....

Is this marketing? AI ? UI? Support?

All of the above? None of the above?

 

[Krall]

I'm surprised no one has taken into account how much more involvement 2K had in Civ V than Civ IV. Civ Revolution changed a lot of things.

It is important to remember that the big publishers think that TBS is basically dead and no one plays them and the only way to "make money" is to appeal to a larger audience.

It's no coincidence that Civ V's release was matched up with 2K's fiscal year end.

As someone who has designed or helped design games people love (GalCiv, Sins) as well as games people didn't love (at least on release -- Elemental) I can tell you that game design is not where the rubber meets the road.

Or, to paraphrase -- tactics is for amateurs, logistics is for professionals. The design part of a game is very tactical in the bigger scheme of things. It's the logistics that matter.

I think one of the reasons Civ IV was such a success was that Firaxis was left alone to make a great game.

I think a lot of us realize that 2K had a lot more control over the outcome of Civ V then Civ IV because of the way it was marketed heavily toward DLC, how the game moved so far away from micro management and into the realm of streamlined, console feeling type of game. The subtle hints of a PR being so involved pre-launch and then all but disappearing after release speaks volumes.

What you mention about Elemental also means a lot to fans, Stardock may have released a 'failure' of a game, but they are not so stuck up that they can't recognize it may not have sat well with consumers and have set out to fix things. What a great touch it is to know you bought a product and the developer isn't afraid to keep customers informed of the changes being made to improve the games mechanics for the better. I don't think we've heard on word out of the Firaxis camp about what could be described as the same issues.

I would be intrigued to know why or how the balance of power suddenly changed.