Illians and FF

Imuratep

Imuratep

Cultist of the Old Ones
Joined
Sep 4, 2008
Messages
722
Location
Germany
FF has strengthened the Apocalyptic Riders a lot in comparison to FFH which is a very good thing as they were too weak to be taken serious. But now Auric looks even more feeblish than he was before and on power level ratio IMHO he should be at least on par with each of the riders. He's a fricking god and the Avatar of Wrath is nothing but an Archangel, isn't he?
Additional I think the Illians are too focussed on the White Hand and too less on what they are supposed to do: The Ascension of their leader. The White Hand comes just too early to allow a real defense against it. Their power level should be certainly high but they should not dominate the whole Illian game. Who needs Auric anyway if he has the White Hand? That's why I suggest to move the White Hand ritual to Priesthood or even to Fanatism and to allow the Illians in return to upgrade a great prophet into a priest of winter. This way they would still be very powerful, but not literally invincible.
Finally Wilboman is really boring. He does nothing that makes you to want him. Again every priest of Winter (available at a very cheap technologie) is by far superior to him (though the tech requirement is very high).
 
Imuratep said:
FF has strengthened the Apocalyptic Riders a lot in comparison to FFH which is a very good thing as they were too weak to be taken serious. But now Auric looks even more feeblish than he was before and on power level ratio IMHO he should be at least on par with each of the riders. He's a fricking god and the Avatar of Wrath is nothing but an Archangel, isn't he?
Click to expand...

Actually, I believe the Avatar was initially the embodiment of all the gods fears, rather than an actual archangel... Then Kael retconned him. :lol:

As for Auric's strength level... Look at WarKirby's Monstrous Creatures if you only want more powerful beasts/dragons/Auric, or go to FFPlus, which has Monstrous Creatures, new civs, improved civs (Malakim, Doviello, Jotnar, a little for the Khazad), forts spreading culture, minor leaders, and much much more. :lol: [/ENDSELFPLUG]

Imuratep said:
Additional I think the Illians are too focussed on the White Hand and too less on what they are supposed to do: The Ascension of their leader. The White Hand comes just too early to allow a real defense against it. Their power level should be certainly high but they should not dominate the whole Illian game. Who needs Auric anyway if he has the White Hand? That's why I suggest to move the White Hand ritual to Priesthood or even to Fanatism and to allow the Illians in return to upgrade a great prophet into a priest of winter. This way they would still be very powerful, but not literally invincible.
Click to expand...

Hmm... Moving it back a tech may not be a bad idea. I'm planning on adding the White Hand religion soonish, so they'll be able to build slightly weaker priests of winter anyway.

Imuratep said:
Finally Wilboman is really boring. He does nothing that makes you to want him. Again every priest of Winter (available at a very cheap technologie) is by far superior to him (though the tech requirement is very high).
Click to expand...

There was a suggestion in my forum to give him some of the new Jotnar promotions from FFPlus... Making him much stronger. I'm giving it serious though. ;)

WarKirby said:
Monstrous Creatures:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=318917&highlight=monstrous

Download, install, use.
It's a module I made which powers many of the massive things in erebus. Including Auric and Drifa


I'd personally rather see the white hand made into a real religion, and the priests of winter buildable like any priests, at priesthood.
Click to expand...

:mischief:
 
Valkrionn said:
Actually, I believe the Avatar was initially the embodiment of all the gods fears, rather than an actual archangel... Then Kael retconned him. :lol:

As for Auric's strength level... Look at WarKirby's Monstrous Creatures if you only want more powerful beasts/dragons/Auric, or go to FFPlus, which has Monstrous Creatures, new civs, improved civs (Malakim, Doviello, Jotnar, a little for the Khazad), forts spreading culture, minor leaders, and much much more. :lol: [/ENDSELFPLUG]
Click to expand...

I wanted to try your new version anyway. Didn't know you have changed Auric too.
 
Auric in MC/FFPlus is an almost unstoppable monster. He has 75 Strength, blitz, implacable, cannibalize, twincast, 4 first strikes, 10 movement(!), sentry I, II and perfect sight

to stand a chance you really need th godslayer, in the hands of an exceptional hero.
 
Valkrionn said:
Godslayer still kills him no matter what...
Click to expand...

Well, thanks to all the first strikes and such, you really need a unit with 8+ base strength, wielding the godslayer, to be able to kill him.

And that's assuming fulll health. since his Snowfall has a 2 tile range, and he can cast it twice per turn, the odds are pretty good that you'll be injured by the time you face him.


but still, give godslayer to a phalanx, and he's probably toast. I'm thinkiung the godslayer may need a little nerf, actually. +1000% is a bit extreme.
 
Actually...... The +1000% vs Avatar isn't the bad part. :lol: Even now, a worker equipped with the Godslayer will kill him, even if the worker dies, thanks to postcombatAuricAscendedWon, a function run every time he wins. Obviously. :p

According to this code, if the opponent has the Godslayer promotion, Auric dies. Even if he should have won the battle, he is killed, your traits are lost, and the opponent can get the Trophy.

It's actually the exact code run if he loses as well, if you move the godslayer check from the beginning, to run before the trophy is given out.

Code: 
def postCombatAuricAscendedWon(pCaster, pOpponent):
	if pOpponent.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_GODSLAYER')):
		iPlayer = pCaster.getOwner()
		pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(iPlayer)
		for iTrait in range(gc.getNumTraitInfos()):
			if pPlayer.hasTrait(iTrait):
				pPlayer.setHasTrait(iTrait,False)
		pCaster.kill(True, pOpponent.getOwner())
		pOppPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pOpponent.getOwner())
		if pOppPlayer.isHuman():
			t = "TROPHY_FEAT_GODSLAYER"
			if not CyGame().isHasTrophy(t):
				CyGame().changeTrophyValue(t, 1)
 
Valkrionn said:
Actually...... The +1000% vs Avatar isn't the bad part. :lol: Even now, a worker equipped with the Godslayer will kill him, even if the worker dies, thanks to postcombatAuricAscendedWon, a function run every time he wins. Obviously. :p

According to this code, if the opponent has the Godslayer promotion, Auric dies. Even if he should have won the battle, he is killed, your traits are lost, and the opponent can get the Trophy.

It's actually the exact code run if he loses as well, if you move the godslayer check from the beginning, to run before the trophy is given out.

Code: 
def postCombatAuricAscendedWon(pCaster, pOpponent):
	if pOpponent.isHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_GODSLAYER')):
		iPlayer = pCaster.getOwner()
		pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(iPlayer)
		for iTrait in range(gc.getNumTraitInfos()):
			if pPlayer.hasTrait(iTrait):
				pPlayer.setHasTrait(iTrait,False)
		pCaster.kill(True, pOpponent.getOwner())
		pOppPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pOpponent.getOwner())
		if pOppPlayer.isHuman():
			t = "TROPHY_FEAT_GODSLAYER"
			if not CyGame().isHasTrophy(t):
				CyGame().changeTrophyValue(t, 1)
Click to expand...

That is SO getting removed in patch C

+1000% vs avatar is far more than enough to defeat him at any level. That python autowin is just silly.
 
Even with the changes I made in MC, he's not unbeatable. Ranged attacks, suiciding T4 units against him, etc, can eventuallly damage and weaken him to the point where a highly promoted hero could take him out, even without the godslayer.

do bear in mind that auric has no unitcombat and never gains xp. He should be exceptionally powerful, and near invincible, for the effort it takes to get him. Emphasis on the near.

A pthon autowin condition is just cheating, quite frankly. That's stupidly annoying, and serves no real purpose in gameplay terms. The godslayer is a powerful weapon, certainly. Would you give a powerful, world saving weapon, to a unit that will never see combat. like a worker? Hell no you wouldn't.

where there are all-powerful artefacts, there are heroes. And the two go together like coffee granules and hot water. What point is there in encouraging people to give the godslayer to a worker? It's just silly, and detracts from immersion.

I've been tempted to add a level prereq to the godslayer, actually, so only suitably heroic units would even be capable of wielding it.

even if you haven't put the effort into keeping your civ/religion heroes alive, and/or building a homegrown hero through nurturing, giving the godslayer to a freshly built Paladin or Immortal is a lot better than giving it to a worker. And unless you have no concept of civ management, it's fairly likely any human controlled civ will have T4 units by the time the illians get auric.. If not, why shouldn't you be screwed ?
 
Ah, that's your complaint... I see your point. Even then, I wouldn't remove the python at all... I'd just go with the level requirement.

Like I said, I see no reason the Godslayer SHOULDN"T be a win condition vs Auric. That's what it was designed for. But limiting the Godslayer, so low level/tier units can't use? That I can agree with.

Say, either level 6 or tier 4? Either requirement would work for me.
 
Hmm... On second thought, tier wouldn't really work. Mostly because not all Heroes are tier 4.

One possible way to work around that, without making it in python, is to have several autoacquire effect promos that require the unit to be in the same stack as the Godslayer. To actually take the Godslayer, the unit must have one of these effect promos. (Just make them prereqOrs)

Possible effect promo reqs:

  1. Hero. Plain and simple.
  2. Level 12.
  3. Level 10 + Tier 2
  4. Level 8 + Tier 3
  5. Level 6 + Tier 4
All of these should block the others, so the first one the unit gets is the one it keeps... Less clutter. I put in a req for each tier, specifically because some civs have UU's you may not want/be able to upgrade. If you have a high level Jot Cyclops (in FF, FFPlus changed this), he'll never be able to upgrade... Get him high enough, and he can still serve.

Really, this way would be pretty simple. It just makes it so you can have differen't level requirements for each tier... More flexible.
 
Auric Ascended is even more impressive in my version. He heals 100% after every combat, passively terraforms all the lands around him as he moves, can move around like an ICBM in addition to his normal flying, and while he can never get promotions you can get the mortal Auric unit to get promotions before the Ascension ritual transforms him into a god (although it is rather risky to fight with a weak unit whose death will cost you your traits and make most your rituals impossible). He can however always be defeated by either the Godslayer or the Netherblade. (The later of which doesn't have a bonus vs avatars, but still kills him in python. I'm thinking that if and when I get around to rewriting the Resurrection spell to work though triggering an event that gives you a choice of whom to bring back I'll make it so that no one who was killed by the Netherblade can return until the weapon has been destroyed, and likely so that Auric Ascended comes back as soon as it is destroyed if it had been used to trap him in Laroth's kingdom in Arawn's Vault. This system would however require a lot of new Feats, and the last time I tried adding any of those to the DLL the game would CtD upon loading.)
 
If you remove the auto-win from Godslayer, I would advise that you change the python function to ensure that the Illians never keep the GodSlayer after the fateful battle, otherwise it is a single-attempt deal. If some jerk AI runs off with a lone scout to take him down, the whole world loses.
 
How often are you going to encounter a situation where Auric ascends and a non-Illian AI is still ahead of you in score?
 
WarKirby said:
The godslayer is a powerful weapon, certainly. Would you give a powerful, world saving weapon, to a unit that will never see combat. like a worker? Hell no you wouldn't.
Click to expand...

I am going to disagree. I am going to disagree in a silly way.

Every epic Fantasy setting who is the hero?

The little non-combat orientated putz who can't wipe his own nose. The guy that needs to be escorted over hill and under dale, across the river thru the woods to mount Doom.

You have seen the movie "Willow" right? Read "The Hobbit" and "Lord of the Rings"? "Sword of Shanara" Series? "Thomas Covenant the White gold Wielder"?

There for I propose you do the opposite. Put a limit on who can wield the Godslayer. Limit it to level 4 and under. Heroes should NOT be able to wield it. They should have to escort your unlikely savior to the point of conflict. Would be a lot mroe interesting that way if you ask me. :)
 
Breez said:
I am going to disagree. I am going to disagree in a silly way.

Every epic Fantasy setting who is the hero?
Click to expand...

It is supposed to be dark fantasy, not epic fantasy. Personally I think the unit that kills Auric should die as well.
 
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