[BTS] I'm looking to improve

[as2w]

I have been playing Civ 4 for a while, but only recently upgraded to BTS. I'm a below average player looking to improve so I'm posting a game here to walk through and learn from others.

I chose Catherine as my leader. No huts and no events.

Spoiler The start. :

I see two possibilities for my capital. One is 1S on the forested plain on the river. The other is the plains hill 2E of settler. I'm leaning towards the forested plain spot, but am not sure this is optimal. So if I want to check that settling E is an option, I should probably move my scout to the plain hill 2E.

 

[lymond]

I think 1S is the way to go here. It will give you a stellar Bureau capital. Worker first and tech Agriculture, ofc. I'm debating whether Pottery is better before BW, but Cathy starts with BW so may be better to go BW first for some chops, whips. Then to Pottery. AH can likely be ignored for a while.

Second corn will likely setup at least one good overlap city with Moscow for cottage growing, and I would look to setup other overlap helper cities if feasible.

With that food you can probably setup a good 4>2 settler whip into a new worker.

I would pay until the two corns are improved and the post next report.

 

[Pangaea]

Don't think settling on the plains hill is an option here. It doesn't have fresh water and you'd lose out on some of that floodplains goodiness. But I considered SW on the floodplains instead, so you don't lose a turn moving. Therefore I'd move the scout SW-NW to see what is around.

Spoiler :

Having done that, I think settling 1S on the forested plains is the way to go. Short on hills, but plains cow+surprise should suffice. And most production here, at least early, will come from whipping. Too much food otherwise. A little down the road, you can do 6->3.

Think I'd go Agri->BW from the start. Then perhaps Wheel->Pottery so you can take advantage of the nice floodplains early. Depending on what else is around, and if you find copper, AH shouldn't be needed very urgently.

 

[Pangaea]

Played 50 quick turns. Probably best you don't check the spoiler until you have played a while yourself, but maybe it could then prove useful. I'm sure I made mistakes, and one could debate placement of cities, but still... think you can have fun with this map

Spoiler :

Did as mentioned above, and settled 1S after the scout move SW-NW. Teched Agri->BW->Wheel->Pottery->AH. Didn't exactly start on cottage right away though, so AH could have been done earlier. Between worker and settler so early, I tend to prefer a settler, which means you gain more land early, but fewer improvements. This is Noble so hardly a contest for land, but on higher difficulties... tiles can be improved, but land can't be gotten easily if you lose it to neighbours.

Got Writing in T50, and have something invested in another settler. Figured it could be 2-popped at size 4 again. Intended to put the first city next to the lake 1N of the current position, but then the gold popped up, and we're creative. Means it can't help the capital grow cottages now, but important to get gold online early too. Several more golds in the SW, though I see Saladin put a city in that area as well. But it should be possible to go over there and grab at least one of the golds.

Looks like the warrior in the NW that I intended for fogbusting is toast, however, as he happened to come across a barb spearman. Those are always very nasty, especially so early. Think free wins are used up too. Is it 2 on Noble? Have killed a lion, and got assaulted by a bear (which would normally be insta-death too).

The third city isn't exactly in a grand position, but it's there partly to help with capital cottage growth. Would need some more defence, and sadly no horses or copper near, but next settler could for instance go further SW and grab more gold and river tiles. It's a good area, and distance maintenance isn't much on Noble. Otherwise one could grab the cow in the NE, or other places nearby. Plenty of options, although not great cities.

 

[Anysense]

There definitely is more riverside in the south, so moving further south might be an option. I'd move scout southwest to check whether there is some food to compensate for the loss of the northern corn or even gold. Not that you need gold on Noble.
The area arond the hill 2E is forested, you can see it if you look closely, moving scout there won't reveal anything except forests, and there is some tundra near the hill 2W1N.

Spoiler Moved scout SE-SE-W-NW :

Moving further 1S makes for a bit stronger capital in the long term, but with just one corn you can't skip Animal Husbandry in favour of early BW, so I'd settle here.

 

[as2w]

Thank you for joining me. I followed the advice of Pangaea and moved scout SW-NW. I read the advice above and after a lot of thinking and debate, I decided to settle 1SE on the floodplain. Here is what I was thinking.

Taking into account what Lymond said above, I thought having more floodplains available (5 vs. 7) for when I hit bureaucracy was going to be better. So that's why I chose SE rather than SW. The reason I chose SE over S was that I thought it may be better to settle first turn this game.

My turn set was short (20 turns), but I was at a stopping point. I have met the Ethiopians and the Arabians. I am a bit nervous of their close proximity.

Tech so far was Agri-->BW-->Pottery. I adopted slavery immediately so I'm ready to grow Moscow and whip settlers and workers. Could somebody give a brief explanation on why I would whip 4->2? I have been trying to be improve in my understanding of the whip. I think I have the basics down. Food=production. So I am converting food into hammers and therefore getting units or buildings or whatever built more expeditiously. Do I understand correctly that each person of population is worth 30 hammers? So I am a little confused what the benefit is that I get when I whip from 4 to 2 versus 3 to 2 or 4 to 3.

How quickly should I build the granary in Moscow? I am building a couple of warriors at the moment for fog busting and maybe a little scouting. As you can see my scout is getting around nicely. Is it best practice to scout all around my competition even if I cannot see inside their BFC?

I'm not sure I know where best to put my second, third and fourth cities yet. My guess is that this should be on the fore front of my mind. Lymond suggested to have some overlap with capital. It seems to me that one location is going to be slightly NW of Moscow. If I settle 1NW of marble, then I'll get the marble, corn, deer and much later the wine. I'm not sure where else are good spots for cities.

I guess that's it for now. I'm looking forward to viewing the spoiler above after I get to turn 50 in my game.

Spoiler Turn 20 :

 

[Pangaea]

Plenty of food here, but it's also a general thing. It's better to whip more than one population point because you get 10-turn anger each time. Takes time to wear away, and early the happy cap is low. So especially with much food, the city will grow into unhappiness. This is easier to control if you whip away 2 or even 3 population points each time.

 

[Anysense]

More food early on is much more important than a couple FP more later or settling one turn earlier. I suggest you replay and settle with both corns in the BFC.
Your scouting seems all right.
1NW of the marble is odd, its off-river, has very few good tiles, shares only 2 tiles with the capital. Settling on that marble is plain better in every aspect.

 

[lymond]

1SE was a bad move

 

[as2w]

Anysense, following your advice, I started it again and settled 1S. So with that new capital location, I'm a bit unsure about the location of my second city. If I understood your comment above, I should probably settle on that river that runs by Moscow and settle to the south. Do I try to share the corn or just the cows?

Pottery is still a few turns out. Is the best move to irrigate some of those flood plains to keep the growth happening quickly? And then make some cottages once pottery is online?

 

[as2w]

Lymond, is it a bad move because then the capital lacks food? Is that the primary reason?

 

[as2w]

One more question as it relates to whipping. If I whip immediately, it will reduce the city by 2. No problem, I understand why that is better from the above explanations. Thank you for the easy explanation. However, I will only have an overflow of 4. Should I wait one more turn before whipping or will I lose the opportunity to whip 2 pop?

Since Cathy gets 50% hammer improvement for settlers, I am not completely clear on the calculation of how many turns I can wait and still whip 2 pop. The build is 42/100. If I'm reading it correctly, production is 13 hammers per turn, 12 from food and 1 from the city. So next turn I will be at 55. If 1 population equals 30 hammers, then next turn is the optimal turn for me to whip and maximize overflow, correct? And if I understand other threads I have been reading, then put the overflow into a worker.

Thanks for your patience with me. I really appreciate the feedback and help.

 

[lymond]

Well, first your logic on 1SE was kinda faulty. I mean you only really gain one FP and killed one in the process. But more importantly, I would never move away from a 6 resource. There are really two main reasons from moving from a SIP position. The first is to improve your capital in some way - more food, more river, better capital position (bureau), bonus to city center (like PH). The second reason is less applicable to you now as it primarily is for the highest levels like Deity where you generally know that city spots will be at a premium - that is, you want to setup subsequent city spots. But moving away from good food is generally a no-no. You did not improve your situation and, if anything, made it worse. 1SE loses a turn and a forest but otherwise gets rid of a bad tile while maintaining the food and adequate cottage locations, while setting up food sharing. Lesser concern is noting the coast can be seen to the east, so your move potentially might cause issues if seafood is present (which it wasn't), but worth consideration.

As Pangaea said, multiple pop citizens reduces happy concerns. But also, it sets up potential better overflow positions, although that is not always a priority very early it can help. I like to whip first settler with as much OF into a new worker. Chops timed can help too. However, it is also about timing. You can whip a 4>2 settler pretty fast - like 1 or 2 turns of production if Imperialistic with Cathy. Or if not IMP, with help from a chop. One pops are not completely out of the question. It all depends on the timing of things and such. You have great food here so can grow really fast, plus with a Mining start you have relative fast access to BW.

While irrigating FPs is not completely out of the question in some situations - lower food. It is a waste of worker turns here. Farming desert takes a lot of turns and just is not necessary here. You should have BW by the time the corns are farmed, so you can start chopping..and TW will arrive not long after to setup road to the new city. Plenty for worker to do.

Granary is not always urgent in the capital especially with such good food, although logic would deem otherwise. It is really about opportunity. If expansive trait you can usually get one really quick from a chop and/or overflow. In this case, you could possible 2pop a granary at some point, which I did in my test. (note: you want the granary to complete on a turn in which the food bar does not go over the halfway point to max food storage) So it is situational. Sometimes I just gradually build the granary putting bits of OF into it until I can complete it at the optimal point. Your first priority though is workers, settlers and spawnbusters.

Should I wait one more turn before whipping or will I lose the opportunity to whip 2 pop?

Good question. Timing for IMP leaders is a little trickier because of the bonus. Much easier to calculate without IMP as one knows that 29H of production (3pop) or 69H of production(2pop) are the clear points for max OF for settlers whips. I'm actually not certain the points for IMP bonus, but usually kinda know if another turn would kill the 2pop. I think generally though that 2 turns is fine enough. You will get 16H of OF but also more because the base production into the settler that turn adds to the overall effect, so there should be a bit more. If you time a chop the following turn you should get a very fast next worker. But also note, that sometimes it is not always about the OF early. I tend to try to maximize it as much as possible, but often the more important thing is getting the next city as fast as possible and moving to the next item.

 

[as2w]

Made it to turn 50. I'm aware of several errors along the way: irrigated a flood plain (not optimal), moved worker on accident so lost any work that turn, waited an extra turn to whip out settler. I'm sure there are many others.

I suspect the placement of St. Petersburg wasn't so good, but it's the only way to share the corn to the south.

I have a settler made and another that will finish this turn. I'm really unsure where to take them since there aren't any horses and so far I haven't seen any copper.

On tech, I went Writing and IW after Pottery. I haven't finished IW so probably should switch to AH immediately to get those cow tiles improved. I was a little concerned that I don't have any military resources and that's why I thought IW made sense.

I'll wait for feedback and some advice before I jump into the next 25-50 turns. I feel like beyond the capital I don't have a lot of great options for cities as food seems to be minimal. And with no military resources I feel a little stuck.

Spoiler Current map :

 

[lymond]

St. Pete's is not bad at all. It is in line with what we are trying to show you. city can share food and help grow cottages, while being a fine city on its own. I settled a little different in in my test, but actually your spot is probably better than what I did.

Yes, the farmed FP was a mistake. I don't know if that was an accident or just ignoring our advice. Think in terms of the turns it takes to do something. Farming that FP takes like 7 or 8 turns..that is huge. An important concept to learn with this game is it is so important what you do early and how to manage workers. Good things done early snowball to great things later.

IW is another huge mistake new players make. First, what is the logic of it. AH displays horse, and you have two good food resource that require it (plus the Hunting start bonus). IW is something the human almost never techs themselves unless absolutely needed. Easy to trade for later. Granted this is Noble which has a slow tech pace, but it is a key concept for knowing when you move up difficulties. AIs prioritize certain techs.

Nice settler whip in Moscow..see how fast that new worker comes out.

However, in expectation (and I know right now you are unsure where to settle new cities) a worker could be roading to the new city. (By the way the roads to St. Pete's were a waste since the cities are connected by a river - within culture borders..the trade routes was instant). I road placed to the adjacent tile prior to placing a city gives instant trade routes - more commerce/more fasterer.

So for example (see attached file in which I placed signs on the map as guides), I marked the next city 3E of Moscow. You could have chop the forest there - decent enough hammers to chop and preroaded.

Overall, this is a great map for you. Plenty of food and spots to settle, even right close to Moscow. I might even try nabbing that gold from Zara which I marked. On noble you might be able to get there first.

Lastly, enough with the scouting. After the initial scouting of the area for city spots (apprx. 10 tile radius from capital) pull them back to spawnbust. I marked some spots. A single unit can spawnbust a 5X5 area of tiles from the tile that stand on. So you should not have roamed the scout and the warrior so far right now..you can scout more later when things are secure. As cultural borders expand you can push your busters a bit further out.

This includes the warriors sitting in your cities right now..the cities do not need them yet. They should be outside borders preventing barb spawn...and protecting areas you plan to settle.

I would start again. Practicing this is good. No problem replaying a game while learning.

 

[Pangaea]

Perhaps it would be useful to check out my spoiler now? As with everything in this game, there isn't One True Path and everything else is stupid, but it can be good to see for comparison's sake.

Spoiler :

3 cities (1 can be two-popped soon), 3 workers (1 more next turn). Gold online, a cottage up, and two cows almost improved. A floodplain farm too, because the city that grabs gold must have some kind of food. And this one doesn't 'steal' a cottage spot from the capital. A little trick, you can put in one turn of an improvement while moving a worker - sometimes good instead of wasting the turn entirely by just moving.

I've put down some markers for suggestions for future cities. Novgorod certainly isn't great, but it can help grow two cottages for the capital, and doesn't 'destroy' spots by the southern shore. A bit tempting to really bust out of town and go far south-west for the extra gold, but if preparing for higher difficulty levels, where distance maintenance is much harsher, it's probably better to place it for instance by the deer-wine-marble. NE spot (by cow) isn't in contention by others and can be backfilled. Always more important to grab land towards the AIs, most of the time (if that AI is Shaka... maybe not! ). After that, if it isn't taken, probably the sheep spot.

As you can see I'm a bit short on warriors, only have two, but three more in the works. It's only Noble, so one can can get by with fewer. Bad luck in the NW, however, and that guy will probably die to the nasty barb spear. Always a big problem when those pop up early. But no need to haul ass for IW really. The AIs love that thing, and you can get it early from Alpha here. With gold hooked up, build up gold for a few turns at 0% research (try to get into the habit of binary research (0% or 100%), and then go for Alpha. The AIs will be very slow to get there on Noble, so better you get it yourself, then backfill some techs, like the Mysticism line. Should be no problem to get Oracle -> Civil Service here, you can even hook up Marble and do it in no time.

(Btw, how come your screenshots are so small? Makes it a bit hard to see what's what without loading the savegame)

 

[Pangaea]

On IMP whipping of settlers: You get +50% (or 45 ), so if the goal is max overflow (something I don't favour in the early game, as earlier cities is more important than high overflow, imo), you can still 2-pop the settler when you have 54/100 invested.

 

[floydmcw]

T50:

Settled 1S, figured cow prod would be helpful so Ag -> AH, worker -> warrior -> settler (at size 3).

Spoiler :

Settler went to the desert hill south of capital, for cow and lots of FP. Had a look around, considered stealing the gold from ZY, but then saw gold south of Sally and am getting that next turn, it's a great city site (as opposed to the eastern gold which has no food).

I haven't whipped anything, Moscow is working squares that are so good I didn't see the point of losing them. 5 warriors, two workers (but 2 more coming in 2 turns), 2 cottages. Full tech path was BW -> TW -> Pottery -> Masonry, will get Fishing in 2. Have met Lizzy and Trusty Justy (not sure if everyone else has or I've just gotten lucky with their explorers not getting eaten).

A little concerned about having no copper/horse but in general this should be a pretty solid position.

 

[as2w]

St. Pete's is not bad at all. It is in line with what we are trying to show you. city can share food and help grow cottages, while being a fine city on its own. I settled a little different in in my test, but actually your spot is probably better than what I did.

Yes, the farmed FP was a mistake. I don't know if that was an accident or just ignoring our advice. Think in terms of the turns it takes to do something. Farming that FP takes like 7 or 8 turns..that is huge. An important concept to learn with this game is it is so important what you do early and how to manage workers. Good things done early snowball to great things later.

I had already farmed it and started farming a second tile when I read the advice. Stopped as soon as I read it. Didn't ignore it at all. I apologize if it looks like I was ignoring what you are advising.

IW is another huge mistake new players make. First, what is the logic of it. AH displays horse, and you have two good food resource that require it (plus the Hunting start bonus). IW is something the human almost never techs themselves unless absolutely needed. Easy to trade for later. Granted this is Noble which has a slow tech pace, but it is a key concept for knowing when you move up difficulties. AIs prioritize certain techs.

Thanks for the explanation. I'll switch to AH as soon as I start it back up. So in hindsight, AH was the next thing after Pottery. That way the capital can keep getting developed and can capitalize on those cows.

Nice settler whip in Moscow..see how fast that new worker comes out.

Yes, that's great! I could have been out 1 turn faster with settler if I hadn't been so concerned with hammer overflow. Guess that overflow management needs to wait until a little bit later.

However, in expectation (and I know right now you are unsure where to settle new cities) a worker could be roading to the new city. (By the way the roads to St. Pete's were a waste since the cities are connected by a river - within culture borders..the trade routes was instant). I road placed to the adjacent tile prior to placing a city gives instant trade routes - more commerce/more fasterer.

Generally speaking, worker priorities are to improve food tiles, chop or prechop for settler, road to expected city placements. Or have I simplified that too much? I have often struggled with optimizing my workers and therefore make lots of roads. Bad habit carryover from CIV 1, CIV 2 and CIV 3.

So for example (see attached file in which I placed signs on the map as guides), I marked the next city 3E of Moscow. You could have chop the forest there - decent enough hammers to chop and preroaded.

I haven't looked at the file yet, but I'll take a look before I push on.

Overall, this is a great map for you. Plenty of food and spots to settle, even right close to Moscow. I might even try nabbing that gold from Zara which I marked. On noble you might be able to get there first.

Lastly, enough with the scouting. After the initial scouting of the area for city spots (apprx. 10 tile radius from capital) pull them back to spawnbust. I marked some spots. A single unit can spawnbust a 5X5 area of tiles from the tile that stand on. So you should not have roamed the scout and the warrior so far right now..you can scout more later when things are secure. As cultural borders expand you can push your busters a bit further out.

Very good to know about the 10 tile radius. That's a really helpful guideline.

This includes the warriors sitting in your cities right now..the cities do not need them yet. They should be outside borders preventing barb spawn...and protecting areas you plan to settle.

I parked the warriors there because I was above happy cap in both cities. Once I whipped the unrest went away. I thought that when above the happy cap that production is lost. Have I misunderstood that? I figured I could move the warriors back out with the settlers since I am a little light on them as well. Of course, fog busting warriors would and pre-built roads will get my settler to a new location faster, which is your point above. So what is the best way to think about and deal with happy cap issues in the early game?

I would start again. Practicing this is good. No problem replaying a game while learning.

I think I'll play a little bit further to implement and correct what I'm learning and then replay. It'll help me see the difference in results as I can see the snowball effect for myself.

Thanks again for the dialogue. I'm learning so much and enjoying gaining a better grasp on the game.

 

[as2w]

Perhaps it would be useful to check out my spoiler now? As with everything in this game, there isn't One True Path and everything else is stupid, but it can be good to see for comparison's sake.

Spoiler :

3 cities (1 can be two-popped soon), 3 workers (1 more next turn). Gold online, a cottage up, and two cows almost improved. A floodplain farm too, because the city that grabs gold must have some kind of food. And this one doesn't 'steal' a cottage spot from the capital. A little trick, you can put in one turn of an improvement while moving a worker - sometimes good instead of wasting the turn entirely by just moving.

I've put down some markers for suggestions for future cities. Novgorod certainly isn't great, but it can help grow two cottages for the capital, and doesn't 'destroy' spots by the southern shore. A bit tempting to really bust out of town and go far south-west for the extra gold, but if preparing for higher difficulty levels, where distance maintenance is much harsher, it's probably better to place it for instance by the deer-wine-marble. NE spot (by cow) isn't in contention by others and can be backfilled. Always more important to grab land towards the AIs, most of the time (if that AI is Shaka... maybe not! ). After that, if it isn't taken, probably the sheep spot.

As you can see I'm a bit short on warriors, only have two, but three more in the works. It's only Noble, so one can can get by with fewer. Bad luck in the NW, however, and that guy will probably die to the nasty barb spear. Always a big problem when those pop up early. But no need to haul ass for IW really. The AIs love that thing, and you can get it early from Alpha here. With gold hooked up, build up gold for a few turns at 0% research (try to get into the habit of binary research (0% or 100%), and then go for Alpha. The AIs will be very slow to get there on Noble, so better you get it yourself, then backfill some techs, like the Mysticism line. Should be no problem to get Oracle -> Civil Service here, you can even hook up Marble and do it in no time.

So when do I start the binary research method? I'm aware of the method from reading other threads. I just don't know when to start it. And then is that the method for the remainder of the game? I'm going to make the switch from IW to AH immediately and see if I if that helps. With 2 settlers ready to go out in the next two turns, then I can maybe get to the places you have mentioned above. I hadn't thought about building the Oracle. In earlier versions of the series I tried to build all of the WW. However, I know that isn't possible in Civ4 so I have been trying to break that habit. After AH and cow tiles are improved, then do I try to make the Oracle in Moscow? And to be clear, if going for the Oracle, do I chop to get there faster? IIRC it's not possible to whip to complete a WW. Is that correct?

Thank you for the ongoing dialogue. I'm learning a ton and that makes it more enjoyable for me.

View attachment 488823

(Btw, how come your screenshots are so small? Makes it a bit hard to see what's what without loading the savegame)

TBH, I really don't know why they are so small. It's likely something I'm doing, but I don't know what it is for sure. I'm not able to toggle back and forth with the game open so I have to take a screenshot and then close the game. It never truly goes to the background when I ALT+Tab to go to my browser. It's a peculiar issue for sure.