[BTS] IMM & Deity lets play collection thread - Henrik

[sampsa]

In Iso i wouldn't settle on Djenne gold with shared pigs later, Sith Sampsa

Good that you mention this. Just to clear it up, my initial comment was not about Djenne but about nth city on the southern desert gold, which is why comparison was made between mostly a floodplain and desert gold.

 

[Henrik75]

@crashmon

Started playing your Pacal immortal game but I usually would prefer to play this leader on deity (he is probably the best of all leaders existing for how i play); and i also played him very recently on video, so this time I will just do a write-up and play it offline, and try to communicate my key decisions through posts here if you don't mind.

Turn 1

Spoiler :

Warrior moves north east to cover maximum tiles, and investigate sea food opportunities.

No seafood found yet, but a sheep is spotted, making a nice potential city later on, I plan to move south to check for fish SE of the sheep which might change my settle location of that city, and then scout to the north.
As for settle location, definitely settle in place here, without knowing the full potential of surroundings, SIP usually gives the best chance to grab resources in BFC, and we have some nice stuff here- a forest plains hill deer which is the same as a plains cow, a silk tile (Free town with calendar), and several grassland tiles to cottage, which, since we are financial, might as well be on a river if we WEREN'T financial, so they are nice tiles.

Deciding on what to tech is indeed difficult, there are many options - but we need to think about commerce so fishing will come in fairly early especially for the financial lake, and water tiles. I will wait until turn 5 to decide what I will tech.
-----------------
Ok so nothing interesting revealed by settling, but I'm thinking of trying something interesting here in the opening.
What if we grow to size 2 on the corn tile while teching fishing, then at size 2 we build a worker, working the deer tile (expansive boost) and the lake for some easy commerce.
It should be a 10 turn worker, and give me 12bpt, easily enough to pick up agriculture and start on bronze working.

This is more of a high commerce opening than a focus on early food and growth, because at some point the worker would be idle for many turns anyway if we went worker first with agriculture.

Turn 5

ok WTH is this, definitely going to be interesting. maybe i'll actually go record this on video brb.

 

[crashmon]

@crashmon

Started playing your Pacal immortal game but I usually would prefer to play this leader on deity (he is probably the best of all leaders existing for how i play); and i also played him very recently on video, so this time I will just do a write-up and play it offline, and try to communicate my key decisions through posts here if you don't mind.

Turn 1

Spoiler :

Warrior moves north east to cover maximum tiles, and investigate sea food opportunities.
View attachment 618659
No seafood found yet, but a sheep is spotted, making a nice potential city later on, I plan to move south to check for fish SE of the sheep which might change my settle location of that city, and then scout to the north.
As for settle location, definitely settle in place here, without knowing the full potential of surroundings, SIP usually gives the best chance to grab resources in BFC, and we have some nice stuff here- a forest plains hill deer which is the same as a plains cow, a silk tile (Free town with calendar), and several grassland tiles to cottage, which, since we are financial, might as well be on a river if we WEREN'T financial, so they are nice tiles.

Deciding on what to tech is indeed difficult, there are many options - but we need to think about commerce so fishing will come in fairly early especially for the financial lake, and water tiles. I will wait until turn 5 to decide what I will tech.
-----------------
Ok so nothing interesting revealed by settling, but I'm thinking of trying something interesting here in the opening.
What if we grow to size 2 on the corn tile while teching fishing, then at size 2 we build a worker, working the deer tile (expansive boost) and the lake for some easy commerce.
It should be a 10 turn worker, and give me 12bpt, easily enough to pick up agriculture and start on bronze working.

This is more of a high commerce opening than a focus on early food and growth, because at some point the worker would be idle for many turns anyway if we went worker first with agriculture.

Turn 5
View attachment 618660
ok WTH is this, definitely going to be interesting. maybe i'll actually go record this on video brb.

Yep I was looking for a map for me to play (I am a long way away from deity, and just starting on Immortal hence strong leader). It was about turn 5 when it became very interesting, and I thought this is one for Henrik. I did ponder on how to turn it into deity. If I had planned to create a map specifically for you I would have rolled something Deity or had a weak leader instead

Maybe Sampsa or somebody else who knows how to edit WB files can convert it into deity.

You dont need to do a video if you dont want to or either finish the map, but its how you handle this start (say to 1AD) with the shall we say interesting deviation the map has thrown up here

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@crashmon

Spoiler :

Ok so nothing interesting revealed by settling, but I'm thinking of trying something interesting here in the opening.
What if we grow to size 2 on the corn tile while teching fishing, then at size 2 we build a worker, working the deer tile (expansive boost) and the lake for some easy commerce.
It should be a 10 turn worker, and give me 12bpt, easily enough to pick up agriculture and start on bronze working.

This is more of a high commerce opening than a focus on early food and growth, because at some point the worker would be idle for many turns anyway if we went worker first with agriculture.

Turn 5
View attachment 618660
ok WTH is this, definitely going to be interesting. maybe i'll actually go record this on video brb.

Spoiler :

Teching fishing and delaying Agriculture to get to bronze working faster for more production seems like a circuitous logic, since you're losing productivity each turn on the irrigated corn and the deer. Additionally, with limited expansion, your forests are a finite resource. How about Agriculture/Hunting/Wheel?

 

[Henrik75]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

it's not just for bronze working but we need so much stuff like hunting, AH, sailing, masonry I think getting early commerce so we can get all that crap before going for the GLH in reasonable time is very beneficial here, wheel pottery is not needed for a while if you go fishing also with the lake and 3 commerce water tiles. Funny enough it took until 1000bc to get writing even with all that extra commerce, can't imagine how bad it would be if I avoided fishing. Cities will be connected via coast so no need to road.

Tech path was fishing agriculture bronze working hunting AH sailing masonry wheel pottery writing. I felt commerce is the real bottle neck here. Sailing is also needed to expand beyond 3 cities, I actually managed to get 5 cities by 1000bc while building GLH around 1400bc with this opening

 

[Henrik75]

@crashmon

Spoiler :

it took a long time for my economy to come online and I really contemplated which path to take. I went aesthetics literature music and got free GA, used music to trade for currency with mansa and then metal casting from Willem. Seemed very effective. Got a late civil service but that's ok because I was constantly whipping settlers (and a cheeky mausoleum) in capital. After CS I rushed lib and got there around 600ad, I figured our continent was the superior one so if mansa or Willem isn't winning lib no one else will, so I delayed lib for a bit so I could lib astro for grand prize trade routes with GLH. Meanwhile I whipped universities everywhere with forges and organized religion then built oxford in mausoleum golden age and managed to reach 900bpt by 1000ad.

I managed to squeeze out 4 cities on the main continent and the rest amongst the islands.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

it's not just for bronze working but we need so much stuff like hunting, AH, sailing, masonry I think getting early commerce so we can get all that crap before going for the GLH in reasonable time is very beneficial here, wheel pottery is not needed for a while if you go fishing also with the lake and 3 commerce water tiles. Funny enough it took until 1000bc to get writing even with all that extra commerce, can't imagine how bad it would be if I avoided fishing. Cities will be connected via coast so no need to road.

Tech path was fishing agriculture bronze working hunting AH sailing masonry wheel pottery writing. I felt commerce is the real bottle neck here. Sailing is also needed to expand beyond 3 cities, I actually managed to get 5 cities by 1000bc while building GLH around 1400bc with this opening

Spoiler :

Fishing itself is fine - don't think it makes sense before getting resources techs. Pottery that late slows down long run commerce and misses out on granaries for an expansive leader.

3640 BC Agriculture
3400 BC Hunting
3040 BC The Wheel
2800 BC Fishing
2480 BC Animal Husbandry
2200 BC Pottery
1800 BC Bronze Working
1520 BC Sailing
1440 BC Masonry
1200 BC ---> GLH
1160 BC Writing

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

Have no saves anymore on the Pacal-game, but I'm pretty sure I pushed wheel and pottery back a bit, after BW+sailing. What do you even do with the wheel? Eastern city is connected via coast and no luxuries to connect. Shame about EXP granaries of course, but not sure how great they are here anyway. From the screenshot on the previous page you can deduct that GLH was finished T70=1200BC.

 

[crashmon]

@crashmon

Spoiler :

it took a long time for my economy to come online and I really contemplated which path to take. I went aesthetics literature music and got free GA, used music to trade for currency with mansa and then metal casting from Willem. Seemed very effective. Got a late civil service but that's ok because I was constantly whipping settlers (and a cheeky mausoleum) in capital. After CS I rushed lib and got there around 600ad, I figured our continent was the superior one so if mansa or Willem isn't winning lib no one else will, so I delayed lib for a bit so I could lib astro for grand prize trade routes with GLH. Meanwhile I whipped universities everywhere with forges and organized religion then built oxford in mausoleum golden age and managed to reach 900bpt by 1000ad.

I managed to squeeze out 4 cities on the main continent and the rest amongst the islands.

@Henrik75, @CarpoolKaraoke, @sampsa

Spoiler Question :

One of the things I was considering when I put this map in the thread was in the early game yes you are blocked by the mountain, so your stuck with 3-4 cities in your small area, but there is no Barb threat (even on the islands its only galleys). I know on easier difficulty levels Barbs are not so much of a threat, but on Imm / Deity they can be a pain.

How much do you save by not having to churn out units to fogbust vs being slowed down in expansion owing to being trapped in such a small starting area until you get galleys

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

How much do you save by not having to churn out units to fogbust vs being slowed down in expansion owing to being trapped in such a small starting area until you get galleys

Blocked barbarians and a lot of nice islands to expand to makes it an extremely easy map I'd say. Basically no way to lose it on IMM. It wouldn't be much different if the mountain was a forested hill though.

 

[crashmon]

Spoiler :

Blocked barbarians and a lot of nice islands to expand to makes it an extremely easy map I'd say. Basically no way to lose it on IMM. It wouldn't be much different if the mountain was a forested hill though.

Thanks Follow up question

Spoiler :

So by this thinking would an Islands or Archipelago then potentially be an easier map than say a Pangea. As I always assumed Pangea was probably the easier map to play (assuming you get your diplo correct), as you don't have to worry about trade routes, and when your ready for war you can just roll over the continent, rather than having to load up loads of Galleons \ Galleys etc)

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

Yes, archipelago is an insanely easy map script. AI handles island maps very poorly.

 

[Henrik75]

Spoiler :

well it's not quite as easy as an archipelago, the rest of the ai have a normal continent like landmass with a few small islands, mansa was Teching like an average deity ai on my playthrough

For the barb gallies I built 3 or 4 gallies and had them out side fogbusting but in range to clean up if a random barb galley appeared. Around about 500bc on immortal is where you need to be concerned about barb galleys.

Early wheel pottery really doesn't shine to me with no rivers and required to be worked for 10 turns just to break even with a lake tile or coast tiles, which only costs 60 beakers and leads to GLH. Granaries aren't that essential with no happiness resources or monarchy.

 

[Henrik75]

Gonna be bold and say post me a deity isolation map, maybe on the easier side for deity (weaker ai (eg sitting bull, Tokugawa, monte, no mansa or pacal), good leader for the player. (Any from top 3 tiers in my leader tier list), and of course decent land.

 

[AcaMetis]

Gonna be bold and say post me a deity isolation map, maybe on the easier side for deity (weaker ai (eg sitting bull, Tokugawa, monte, no mansa or pacal), good leader for the player. (Any from top 3 tiers in my leader tier list), and of course decent land.

Assuming my internet can avoid having an aneurysm, challenge accepted...though I make no promises. Civ IV mapmaking really is more Zen than anything else

 

[crashmon]

Gonna be bold and say post me a deity isolation map, maybe on the easier side for deity (weaker ai (eg sitting bull, Tokugawa, monte, no mansa or pacal), good leader for the player. (Any from top 3 tiers in my leader tier list), and of course decent land.

I think I had an Iso map a while back, but its Victoria, and you start near the top of the map, so I'm not sure how good the land is. It was a shuffle map type. I have not played it as I don'y play on deity, but I usually roll maps when I am bored and save some of them (either weird starts or something like ISO)

Starting position is below, if it looks like something to try, I'll upload the save

Spoiler Starting Pos :

 

[crashmon]

I'll upload the map later today. @Henrik75 do you want me to move the fish slightly on the map (1S) as I think there is no way it can be used based on how the land is, or I can just upload the map as the computer generated it

 

[civac]

Move the starting settler 1S and fish can be settled later.

 

[crashmon]

Apologies. on the map I posted earlier, I was looking at the WB save to ensure it was ISO, and ended up somehow making a small section of the map visible, so I can't post that one.

I do have another Vicky Iso map, the AI is also not that bad (no Mansa, no Pacal, No willem, No HC). Don't think the starting position is as good though

Spoiler Starting Pos :

Save also attached

 

[sampsa]

@Henrik75 A friendly request. Could you stop spoiling the developments of the episode in the headline? Not sure if I'm the only one annoyed by this though.

Great content btw and your game has improved tremendously in the process!