Immortal Cookbook I: Roosevelt

[Negator_UK]

Hmm, look wot we've got 'ere then - all the MC players playing IMMORTAL.

I thought you were slumming it a bit, but

never played immortal before, or emperor for that matter.

If my game make the cut I'll laugh my socks off.....

Otherwise feel free to laugh yours off...

Spoiler :

Decided to move to the plains hill for the extra hammer, and went straight for a worker. Discovered Ragnar and founded next city near the copper in a bit of a panic. mainly rotated between growing capital/building archers and 2p whipped settlers. Only managed to get one worker so far, so thats the priority. Note barbie axman next to 3rd city, just to make things interesting.
Note city 4 ready to build with settler in place, but decided to leave that move for next turn.

 

[Winston Hughes]

What's going on with this game?

 

[Gliese 581]

What's going on with this game?

The deadline is in about 12-15 hours.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Ah, okay.

So I guess we then have a few days to compare saves and vote. Is that right?

 

[carl corey]

Round 1 report:

Let's get our ass kicked! I've never played on Immortal, I'm just a mortal Emperor but what the heck.

Lots of forests means that I'd love to chop the Great Wall, hope I get to do it on this level though. Settled in place, as the warrior revealed cows 1S2W. I was tempted to settle on the eastern plains hill for early production but I would have lost the cows. And I'll have enough production through chops. Of course it turns out that moving 1E would have netted me a superbly useless coastal tile! Go me.

Tech path: Mining -> Bronze Working -> Masonry. I'm ignoring the cows for now.

Oh, stone! Interesting. Might have a really good chance for the stone wonders here, although most of the GW will probably be built before stone is hooked.

Met Mansa. Oh boy... And Alex. I wonder which one's worse, the backstabber all the mad techer. And Ragnar nearby. Oh, the horror!

Going to get two workers out before the settler, there's so little time, and so much to chop!

We have copper nearby. I decide I'd still go for the GW. We're industrious on (stony) steroids after all.

My first worker finishes to farm the corn and starts chopping. I'm chopping the grassland plains first, I'll want to cottage those. Although I expect to finish with no forests in the capital anyway.

At this point I realize that my name is "Immortal Cookbook". What the deuce? Changed it to Carl Corey. And the Americans now have a properly named leader! Masonry finishes on the same turn, and I choose the wheel next, to connect our stone.

The capital finishes the settler and start on the GW right away.

New York is founded on the stone, now all I have to do is connect it to Washington to bring home the goods.

New York's working a crappy seafood tile as that speeds up our wheels by one turn. Besides, it will take a while until it can build a monument. It is building a warrior as even with the GW it can't hurt to fogbust our back yard to make sure we don't get any barb cities back there. Maybe I'm too paranoid about barbs, but PARANOIA IS TOTAL AWARENESS!

And sure enough I lose a Warrior to a barb one... At this point changing from the coastal tile to the plains hill in New York will not influence the number of turns it takes to finish the wheel, but it will get our warrior out faster. Hill it is!

Looks like I'll finish the Great Wall before connecting the stone. Oh well, I guess it's a wooden wall. The Pyramids will definitely be stoned! Uhm, yeah...

Ok, finished the wheel, now what? I've got Mysticism, Hunting (meh, only one resource, it'll wait), AH (cows, sheep, pig, maybe horses? hmm) and I've got to get to Pottery before my economy tanks. Mysticism first I guess. Feeling spiritual. Oh, and by the way, my second warrior was killed by an archer. See, see?

But the GW is taking care of this! We're unbarbable.

Backyard is fogbusted.

Mysticism in the bag, AH next.

And we finish the Pyramids! Now that's a great capital!

I'm not revolting to anything just yet, I have no specialists and the happiness is still ok. I don't care for slavery, I've got good tiles to work in the capital and not that much food for now (at least until the cows are pastured).

We have horses in the stone city! Woohoo!

So far we've got: 2 cities, a settler almost done which will go for the copper site, two more good city sites nearby (one after we get hunting), two wonders in the capital, two workers, a few warriors and a workboat going toward Ragnar. I hope we can open borders with him by the time it reaches his cultural borders. Maybe it would be better to settle toward the jungle first, as I don't think anyone will want to drop a city behind our lines. Or maybe separate the copper city resources and get the western fish too. Decisions, decisions.

The map so far:

 

[Pete2006]

I haven't had time to play civ4 in ages and almost never played above emperor but I'll give it a go.

Spoiler :

Started worker - warrior - stonehenge - warrior - settler - settler - worker IIRC

Researched myst - ah - wheel - mining - BW - hunting - archery

At the end of the round I have the option of stealing 2 workers from Ragnar. Will probably do it.

I'm currently building my 3rd settler and plan to take the fish/furs spot. Not only will settling that spot give me another happy face and a bunch of commerce but it should prevent barbs from spawning behind me. Then I'll continue settling towards Ragnar and take the barb city.

 

[carl corey]

My turn to bump this. Hey, tycoonist, when do we see your save too?

 

[tycoonist]

yeah, i have had a very busy week (i.e. lots of homework) i will try and post a save this weekend. voting will begin then on monday.

apologies for the delay.

 

[carl corey]

Understood. Real life comes first. (don't hit me! )

 

[tycoonist]

played the turns quickly and in a substandard manner, due to impending deadline for geography coursework.....

Spoiler :

just a quick overview.

city layout:

New York to grab copper, boston to hopefully grab gems and to block ragnar's northern expansion. neither are great cities, but they fit in well with my (mental) dotmap.

tech rate has been poor:

no mysticism, so culture will have to come from libraries. IW needed also to chop jungle on pigs and gems. no pottery either.

warrior for each city and one axeman loitering north of Washington. three workers (another in 1 turn), and one settler nearly finished.

just realised i have broken my own rule on the save's naming. ah well.

 

[tycoonist]

i hereby declare discussion on saves and posting or PMing of votes to be open.

you may still submit your saves, but voting has begun.

 

[Berkobob]

Good thing I checked this thread today

I saw a thread where a poster had put up a post comparing each save in a few key areas (pop, BPT, techs, military etc) and I thought that was a good thing to have.

If no one has any objections I might put something similar up within 24 hours. (as well as my votes)

 

[Gliese 581]

Good thing I checked this thread today

I saw a thread where a poster had put up a post comparing each save in a few key areas (pop, BPT, techs, military etc) and I thought that was a good thing to have.

If no one has any objections I might put something similar up within 24 hours. (as well as my votes)

Don't read if you've yet to submit a save.

Spoiler :

That kind of comparison can be useful but it can also be a little deceiving depending on what you look at. For example, if you look at the GNP in demographics, those of us who built the SH are going to dominate since one of the factors measured are culture. While this has its uses it's of minor importance this early in the game. Similarly, population size can fluctuate wildly at this stage with a whip potentially cutting in half the entire population at the same time as it yields an important building etc.

I agree that BPT can be useful at a break even level, as well as gold reserves. Some other things I look at is number of cities and placement of cities, number of workers and unimproved tiles being used and units and scouting, which techs do we know? Also overarching development potential. Aggressive Rex? Quick stone grab, quick gold grab? Wonders?

 

[Berkobob]

@ Gliese: Thanks for the feedback on the usefulness (or otherwise) of such a comparison. I have put a few more comments in the tag below.

Spoiler :

I agree that some numbers (especially GNP) are largely useless. I have tried to use the most useful pieces of information and agree largely with your suggestions. (I started compiling the information before I read your post)

While I enjoy the exercise of going through each save and digging out some key numbers (I'm an accountant by profession, it comes naturally!) I do realise that the numbers alone do not tell the complete story and that each save must be viewed in context of the strategy/goals of the player during the round.

For each save, I have included a pros/cons section and a summary of any other observations I made about the save at the end of the numerical summary (if that makes any sense).

Again, I like having the numbers available in an easy-to-view format. I find this VERY helpful to me, especially when comparing saves that attempted the same goal (eg SH/rex saves against non-SH/rex saves) As I have already gone to the trouble of generating the raw numbers, I think posting them may be useful to others.

 

[Jet]

Goodness, if you want to do all that work, even if has flaws please do it!

 

[carl corey]

Save analysis (don't read if you haven't posted yours):

Spoiler :

I like Gliese's Oracle gambit. I've seen another one of the saves in which the Oracle was already built, but I hope he makes it in his game. I'm not sure I'd take Aesthetics for it, but it's good to have the choice. Taking Code of Laws could mean that we're a bit freer with the new cities we build due to the half-priced courthouses. I'd have liked the second city to be 1S of its current location to get the rice, although I guess we can use the rice with the fish south from it for another city (Moai statues?). He also has three workers, meaning that chopping a few settlers can be easily done in the capital. I might even favor settlers over the Pyramids, and just go with Great Prophets for now, maybe a Great Scientist somewhere for Philosophy (especially if we bulb CoL with Oracle) and then build Angkor Wat in the capital for superpriests.

 

[carl corey]

By the way, how long do we have to send our votes? I have a pretty good idea who I'll vote for, but I'd rather wait for Berkobob's numbers first, and for whatever other discussion there is.

 

[Bleys]

Its hard to get a good read on the individual saves, they blend together when I look at them. Perhaps we should discuss what we feel the "strongest" plays are, and find the save that best matches those plays.

For example, I like the idea of grabbing Henge, that opens up a full whippable population for a Work Boat, an Archer, or a Courthouse as a first build.

I also like the land I grabbed in the south, getting those Horses would be nice. There are some other saves with good SE expansion.

The Stone for the Mids seems solid as well, but to be honest, at Immortal level, its a LOT of hammers, especially with so many solid city sites and a leader with a strong REXing trait. It would be awesome to nail down CoL ASAP, and bust a move here with a pile of cities. Since we need troops anyway, HR seems like better path, so the Mids could be skipped, perhaps even captured later, with a Stone-throw or something (borderline exploit move, but perfectly acceptable as a game-plan).

Techwise, I see some very strong roads we should look to focus on, CoL, IW, Currency. We have a good tech rate, lets sort of decide on the best path as a +/- in the saves.

I dont like using too many game-generated stats at this point in the game, though. They can be very deceiving as a barometer of strength, its too early and those numbers change drastically with very little influence (for example, you can go from #1 in pop to #4 with a round or two of whipping). Each game is made up of a series of goals, which vary in importance and length. Lets discuss where we would LIKE to be right now, goalwise, 1500 BC, and find the saves that match those goals.

 

[Gliese 581]

I already pm'd my vote to tycoonist.

I think the Pyramids would be useful in this game, being both industrous, having easy access to stone and lots of forest to chop around the capital and several hills+good food everything is set up for it imo. To balance things a bit we have good cottage land in the jungle and most city sites only gets one food.
OTOH we have 2 golds and 2 furs very close as well so I don't see cottage cities as a huge priority here. With Pyramids, Caste System is less important as 2x6 beaker scientists in most cities + the 4 commerce resources will give massive early research.

 

[Berkobob]

As discussed, I have put up some basic numbers for each save in the spoiler below. Yes, numbers aren't everything but I find them useful. Also, Bleys, good point about wanting to set goals and match saves to them. I think at 1500 BC we want to be setting up a good core of cities and preparing to research techs/build units that will allow us to destroy/cripple Ragnar in the classical age without sinking our economy.

Spoiler :

I have been reviewing saves as they have been posted, and I made sure I took a final look at each save before posting.

I wanted to say that seeing my own game stack up against others as well as doing a comparative review of the saves was extremely beneficial and I learned a LOT about early prioritization and build/tech choices. I feel like my games are a lot more focussed now and that I am able to 'time' things better. Last two games were games I lost badly first time through, replayed, set new score records, so something is going right!

Here are my initial comments on the pros/cons/features of each save:

Spoiler :

Berkobob:

Pros:
Stonehenge
2 x Barracks
3 Workers

Cons:
2 cities
Copper city in poor location
Low tech rate

Comments:
I like the fact the Hindu holy city is close by and that I have done a good job exploring the (large) landmass we have been given. Otherwise I think my save is inferior to others regardless of whether we intend to expand peacefully or via an early war.

Rave69:

Pros:
Stonehenge
3 Workers
Good tech rate
Gold being worked

Cons:
Copper not yet hooked up
No Barracks

Comments:
Looks like a good economic start. We have most of the key economy techs we need, our capital has mined hills and a decent BPT.

I am a little concerned about the copper being outside our cultural borders for another 11 turns, although we do have archers and should have it hooked up in around ~15 turns. Also note we have not explored much beyond our own borders, and we do not know the location of any enemy civ's at this stage.

I think this start would be a lot better utilised in a peaceful expansion game – we have not mapped out potential enemy lands, we do not have any strategic resources hooked up and we have not built any barracks (although one is being started in the capital).

Bleys:

Pros:
Copper online
2 Barracks
Lots of Fogbusters

Cons:
Low tech rate
2 Workers (2 more being built)

Comments:
This is a very interesting save IMO. Bleys has chosen to go for the horse city in the jungle south of our capital. I like the location for the fact it claims horses and a grassland mine as well as blocking AI expansion from the south (see where Ragnars borders are), but I think it is a bit ambitious, especially as we have already hooked up copper and have a few good city sites available to us closer to home.

As with the last save, not much exploration of lands beyond our own borders, but we do know the location of at least one target

This save is probably best for an early war, as city 3 puts us a lot closer to Ragnar, we have two barracks and copper available and all three cities look to be good production centres.

Jet:

Pros:
3 Workers
Gold being worked
Good shot at Pyramids

Cons:
Copper not yet hooked up
2 cities stagnated at size 1(see comments)

Comments:
As Jet noted in his report, he is aiming for the Pyramids. A fourth settler is almost done, as well as Masonry. Jet has three workers available and a field full of forests. Let the great chopamids be built!

I note that the gold/rice city is stagnant at size 1 which may be a problem for early infrastructure, but with 4 cities up this city may serve its purpose merely by working the gold only (we need it to continue research!) The second stagnated city has a Monument 1 turn from completion and should be able to develop normally. Copper access is roughly 20 turns away.

I think this save leans itself to a peaceful game, as we do not have any copper, only one barracks and two cities with poor production at present. I also think Jet's save has huge potential due to all those forests, the potential Pyramids and the 'quicker' fourth city, and I predict it will start to accelerate very quickly midway through set two.

Sleepless:

Pros:
Stonehenge
Copper hooked up
Early axes (2nd 1 turn away)

Cons:
Gold not yet online
No Barracks
2 Workers

Comments:
Sleepless was hindered a little bit by an early barb axeman slowing down his capital by a bit and forcing a whipped axeman.

I like the placement of the second city, clams are already being worked and the city can share the corn with the capital. The third city is a little underdeveloped but will be valuable during the second set.

I think this save has a lot of flexibility as the second city should develop a lot faster relative to almost everyone else's New York due to the clam/corn access, and as such can be played out either by peacefully rexing or an early war against Ragnar.

Gliese581:

Pros:
Stonehenge
2 Prechopped Forests
Oracle (??)
3 Workers
Good tech rate
Gold being worked
Copper online

Cons:
2 Cities
NY stagnant at size 1
No Barracks

Comments:
I admit that I am not familiar with what is required/normal for the 'wonderhog' strategy, but it looks like this is a very solid start. You have axemen already built for early defense against barbarians and probably two early wonders and a headstart on the Glib.

I am assuming that NY was built purely for copper/gold access and being stagnant is unavoidable due to the need to research those early techs. I would be interested to hear what your plan for the city is during the next set.

This save should definitely be in the peaceful pile as it appears to have low utility for an early era war.

Pigswill:

Pros:
4 Cities
4(!) Workers
2 Barracks
Copper online
Gold online

Cons:
Low city populations
Lack of exploration
City placement (clarification below)

Comments:
Re: city placement - I am reluctant to criticise anyones efforts (especially as I still think my own save is the worst one going) but I think that the locations of NY, Philadelphia and to a lesser extent, Boston, have hindered us in squeezing in a few more (useful) coastal cities. I think your city choices are certainly justifiable, but I like to get as many cities in as possible, especially along the coast. Regardless, we will still have a good number of city sites available.

That said, I do like this save. We have lots of workers and cities up and running early, are about to get our second gold online and can already build axemen in three cities. I believe that as we have 'less' ability to plant 'good' cities down and have comparatively more cities/workers we should lean towards an early war against Ragnar with this setup.

Winston Hughes:

Pros:
3 Cities
4(!) Workers
Copper online
Gold online
NY (see below)
Good fogbusting

Cons:
Lack of exploration
Boston (see below)

Comments:
As noted in Winston's report, he was aiming at an early military buildup with the intention of taking on Ragnar.

The thing that struck me most about this save was the disparity between NY and Boston. NY looks to be very developed compared to other players who used the same location for NY (it even has a granary as well as three resources hooked up!). I think this city is going to be a powerhouse for an early war as well as provide a good chunk of research.

OTOH, Boston is only a baby right now, it will be a good city in ~40 turns but we have to wait for a monument to build as well as a border pop, unless you intend to chop the monument?

In any event this is a strong save for an early war against Ragnar.

Negator_UK:

Pros:
3 Cities
Good amount of Archers
4th Settler ready to go

Cons:
Low tech rate
1 Worker
Copper not yet hooked up

Comments:
A rather large number of archers in this save, so no problems with barbs/fogbusting. Also a huge amount of the lower continent explored, which is nice. Having 4 cities (basically) up is a good effort, although I am not sure if Boston was a good location to settle this early. I think it would have been much better for you if you had chosen the rice/gold location, or the stone/sheep as you would be working two 5+ yield tiles at size two.

I think this save will have problems with maintenance/tech rate as well as getting the third/fourth cities up and running fast enough. With the low tech rate and current lack of copper/axemen this save would probably need a peaceful round to rebuild the economy/build an army.

Carl Corey:

Pros:
Great Wall
Pyramids(!)

Cons:
2 Cities
2 Workers
Copper not yet hooked up

Comments:
Copper is not as important in this save due to the Great Wall. Pyramids give this save a lot of potential. I'm not sure why there is a workboat out already but it looks like you are shooting for the clam city next? This map also has two good places to put cities and work gold, which along with 6 beaker scientists early may create a teching powerhouse. Definitely think this save is geared for a peaceful expansion phase.

Pete2006:

Pros:
Stonehenge
3 Cities
Gold online

Cons:
2 Workers
Copper not yet hooked up
No Barracks

Comments:
This looks like a strong start. The 'weaknesses' are easily corrected as copper will be hooked up in four turns and assuming you steal the workers (I think taking TWO workers is too big a chance to pass up) you will have plenty of them. Overall this save looks excellent for a peaceful expansion and strong for a classical era war.

Tycoonist:

Pros:
Copper online
3 Cities
3 Workers

Cons:
Gold not yet available
Low tech rate

Comments:
Another interesting save IMO. This is the only save without Mysticism, but the city placements so far do not really require it. I really like the placement of the Marble city and commend you on beating Ragnar to it. Although our tech rate is currently low, we will have 4 cities and 4 workers soon, and we can easily claim a gold resource and chop out a Library or two to boost research. Marble will help us get the Great Library, although I think we have more important priorities, like an early war against our extremely close neighbor.

I think the fact we have settled so close to Ragnar allows us to fight an early war against him much easier. As such, I think this save is better for a classical era war.

Here are my votes:

Spoiler :

3 Votes – Pete2006

I like this save best due to the fact we have three strong cities already up, a strong research rate and we have mostly blocked off our land. Boston is in a great location and fits in with our tentative dotmap. The chance at 2 workers is cake, although this might make Ragnar a bit tougher to crack later on (military buildup after DoW?) I still think the stage is set to take Ragnar out with cats/axes/swords here.

2 Votes – Gliese581

I would have put this save at #1 but for the fact that I don't know all that much about a wonder based strategy and its relative strength/weakness against a 'rex' opening on the same map (I have read obsolete's posts but never tried it out). This is a good save and is set up for a strong game. OTOH, if this save was voted in it would be a great learning experience for me!

1 Vote – Winston Hughes

Ugh. There were two other saves I wanted to give one vote (Rave69 and Carl Corey) but I only get one shot at it. I chose Winston Hughes's save as I think it is slightly ahead of Rave's for early war as his 2nd city is very well developed and he has axes out (although Rave's save has better economy development and has slightly better usage/coverage of the tiles near the copper/gold) and while I was impressed that Carl Corey has both the GW and the Pyramids, I am not sure that the Pyramids are as useful as a few extra settlers/workers on a map which has two easily available gold sources.