Immortal Cookbook IV: Pour la patrie

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I guess the problem lies in who plays the map: we'll have those that are just starting to play on Immortal and who have to adapt to barbs, faster teching, etc.; those who can win on Immortal from good/very good starting positions; those who can win about 50/50 and look for a challenge. And those who are actually Immortal/Deity players, who I'm not trying to please anyway. :P In order to help the first three categories it means the 50/50 ones will have to accept playing easier maps from time to time, and the Immortal beginners like you and me have to accept playing tougher maps. But for beginners to actually learn something from the tougher maps they should provide detailed reports so that others would be able to detect where they went wrong; and the better players should also provide detailed reports to show the beginners how it's done. In two words: detailed reports.

I'll stop here, I think I'm exceeding my character limit for the day. ;)
 
Logs won't tell you:
- that a city worked commerce tiles instead of food/production tiles
- that you starved your city to get that Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy because you realized from clues X and Y that several AIs were going to have techs available for trade soon.
- that when you founded your 6th city you were at 0% research and losing money and had to change civics just to be able to run those Caste System merchants. And that it was indeed worth it!

etc.

There are lots of decisions that won't be reflected in logs, from micromanagement to long-term planning. While many of those will be obvious for all players, some of them won't, and those few are the ones that will make the difference between an Emperor level player and Immortal level player.
 
Oh, I know. My reports are less detailed than I'd want them too. But there were a few online games (aelf's and others') who did go into such details, and they were very enlightening. Sisiutil has at times detailed aspects of his game like the specific order of using his troops in a stack, etc. And I remember that in an Emperor Cookbook (the first one?) the top first round save had an axe-rush without barracks when all the other good saves built the barracks. Nobody mentioned it or talked about whether it was an acceptable risk or not. Those are things we could be discussing, and which could be influencing the outcome of a game. I said it already, I don't think the series (at least the Immortal part) is living up to its purpose so far, and I'm trying to change that.
 
I remember that in an Emperor Cookbook (the first one?) the top first round save had an axe-rush without barracks

If you ever would have looked at log of that save[i am taking numbers out of my head so i migh be mistaken by a century or something]:
1975 - STRIKE!
1925 -reload [session five/six i believe although first three had 4000BC date on it]
1825 - DOW on Shaka

We basically have gentelman aggreement on all players/saves being clean/non cheated and so on...
And that is the only way to go. But after such a log i actually was not in any position to discuss racks/STRIKES and so on(Add a fact i had what? two-three post on forums at that time). I made big eyes and went on.

Actually i would do so today also and i am not trying to insult Mr. Morph or doubt his playing abilities.

So bottom line - read logs. They tell something.
 
I think it is interesting to see the lil quirks that players use to raise their game to a new level.

Its great Carl wants to bring these games up for debates. I do think just posting a save only tells part of the story. Theres lots of things you dont see from a save. You cant always tell why a player makes decisions at times. Theres no explanation tab for builds on here.

Shorter reports can reveal more but I can see how this also slows down game play to some extent. Then again these games are designed so you learn a level.

Still its good to see healthy debate on these cookbooks.
 
@Soirana

Spoiler :


If you look at the middle tiles between the 2 islands there is lighter shading, ocean colour then lighter shading again. From this you can tell the tile you can't see is coastal. The other one to look for is ocean fish you can't reach from your lands so therefore it must be reachable from another land. Thanks to the LHC's I tend to look for land bridges and explore all the coast tiles. Of course I wrote the 1800 report when I had reached 1320BC so I knew the land was there as well. :)
 
Spoiler :
Fish is not actually visible before having culture on water.

I've spent arround ten minutes before i figured ocean colours. Would have never though about that.
 
@ Soirana

Spoiler :


Regarding the fish I was on about in general not this time it is just another way to find coasts. If you see an ocean fish it will be accessible by land whether you can reach it or not but it is another indicator of land being in that area.
 
@sleepless
Spoiler :
fish got nothing to do with it. Any ocean tile unaccessable from main land means some sort of island next to you.

I referred to that saying *lear corners* as usual suspects for this are tiles two diagonally from land corner.


to 1AD
Spoiler :
Well i went from 650BC. Hate to say, but i peaked at wordbuilder in middle of my neurotic reaction. Just to check isolation thing, but that is it.

I am still on four cities [about to settle connecting island]. Also played a bit sloppy. Lost two chariots to barb axes:blush: Alllowded them to attack. my bad.
Went for Aesthetics >literature but GL went befrre i could do so. Probably for good since i am still suffering from early wonderbuild.

Beakers are at 90per turn +some treassury to waste. I settled GM in capital, basically due to low food in where. Affter more settling this might even increase.
I am teching MC for barb protection, cheap forges, trade and cause both our neighbours has full hands. Triremes might see some action.

Military is honestly nonexistant at moment. At best i can keep barbs if they don't drop spears.

Few notes:
I opened with mining into AH. Idea was with all these plain hills i could allow myself delay BW if i hit horses. On other hand i had few sheeps in good positions.
If i miss horses... Well, i believe fractal really gives starting position without horses/copper. So i was inclined to tech BW if no horses.
IMO, that would be to much gamble on B&S for example. On big and small i would have gone to AH through hunting and if no horses teched archery.

I dropped second city to claim horses [although i liked that place even without them. No extra protection and enough food if i go for early writing.]

When i did wonderbuilding. Luckily there was no competition for land so i could allow myself. Still doing both Great Lighthouse and Mids without stone was too much stretch. I am still lagging behind in settled area.

May be lighthouse while settling land quickly should have been better idea.

Is till think i misplaced my western connection city.

Edit: For reffernece i teched BW after i had all GLH techs. And lighthouse in my second city.
 

Attachments

I gave it a try. I'm usually doing good on emperor, so immortal is just one step beyond..

975 BC :

Spoiler :
moved the warrior on the hill south of the settler as I suspected some food : wheat non-irrigated.. well, that should be enough, I settled in place
I started exploring and it soon became evident I was isolated. I wanted a strong navy production city asap, so I settled my second city north of the west deer, sacrifinc the crabs fot a better site with more hills overall.
I was delayed in my expansion by a sudden burst of barb archers from the north (south was fogbusted)
I settled 3rd city and 4th, 5th and 6th should follow soon (placement shown on the map)

Skurn-975BC.jpg


I'm almost done circling the island with a workboat, and I'm clearly isolated. The island is OK for 9 cities, but I have no happy ressource and no wonder ressource..
I will try to go culture, but I doubt I can get a religion. I don't see much hope to win this one :p

 
Game is to 1760 BC at the moment.
Spoiler :
So, I sprung for the great wall because of our starting traits and lack of bronze working for axemen to deal with barbs. At the moment I'm targeting the oracle with the intention of picking up monarchy with the free tech. I'm pushing being too late on immortal to get this, but combined with charismatic this will allow for some very large cities. City planning form this point involves sending one west to pick up the sheep and the fish, then settling 2 separate cities to take advantage of the flood plains. With monarchy in place they should be working all those cottages in a reasonable amount of time. Health will be an issue but i should have 5 health resources at that point.
 

Attachments

  • 1.jpg
    1.jpg
    124 KB · Views: 233
Round 1 to 1800BC:

Spoiler :

I started by moving the warrior 1SE to see if I should move onto that hill, and found our first resource! And no need to settle 1S, so I settled in place to see that the Wheat is our only resource! There better be copper or horses in the city cross...

There's coast south and north-west, and flood-plain heaven to NE; until I'll find out how much dessert surrounds it...

I set research to AH and started building a warrior. I want to explore as much as possible, as the current resource situation looks dire.

Found horses, and water to S, W and E. Great Lighthouse already looks interesting. Research to Mining -> BW.

Uh-oh, looks like we're isolated AND without copper. Interesting...

Started on Mysticism and switched to Slavery. Build order after the initial Warrior was Worker (farmed flood plain, then wheat)-Worker-Settler. I did some preemptive roading towards the Horse city, I'd like to get Chariots out as soon as possible.

Orleans founded:

img1.jpg


Finished Mysticism, started on Fishing->Sailing.

Lyons founded:

img2.jpg


The map looks pretty easy to fogbust except for the northern jungle; some aggressive settling there might be in order. We have 6 resources that provide :health:, plus one :)+:health: with Calendar/Grocer, so I guess happiness is our biggest problem. Pottery (flood-plain cottages) and Monarchy are the priorities here, with Currency and CoL further along, as I'd like to expand as fast as possible. The land is actually pretty good, so the faster we take advantage of it the better. Have to work IW and Metal Casting (cheap forges) in the tech path somewhere. Should also send a workboat around the continent as soon as possible to see if there's no chance of island hopping to find a neighbor.

I planned 10 cities so far, not sure there's place for more although the sites could be altered a bit:

img3.jpg


And hey, it looks like Britain! Where's Ireland?
 

Attachments

Round 1 thoughts:

Spoiler :

I did some bad micromanaging here, especially since I'll want the GLH. Before building the Horse city I brought both workers to road to it, and on the last turn before founding the city both workers were left with nothing to do. Result: one moved onto a forest, and another one just waited a turn to start pasturing the horses. What I should have done: use only one worker for the last road - the one on the horses - hence not losing a turn, keep the other worker in the capital, and save both forests for GLH, while whipping the necessary builds (Monument, workboat and Lighthouse). Now I'll have to whip things into the GLH, probably Chariots, as there's only one forest left to chop and one more production tile (horses).

About city placement:
- I could have founded Horse city 1W of its current location to get rid of the desert and to increase the chances of border-popping my way to another continent if there is one nearby, but it would have lost the sheep, a few good land tiles, and most importantly it would have meant that horses would have been in the second ring. I wanted to get them online ASAP, as warriors won't cut it for long - already lost two. Don't think I'll build barracks in any city anytime soon, as I just thought of something: the capital has quite good production, why don't I try for the Pyramids too? It would mean skipping Monarchy (even if I end up still adopting Hereditary Rule after a while if I'm isolated) and concentrating on the other techs that I need. IIRC the Stonehenge, the Great Wall and the Oracle have already been built, so even if I don't finish the Pyramids the cash should allow me to expand even faster.
- the SE city (sheep+crab+deer) might be shifted 1NE of its current location for the same reason as moving the horse city: hoping to border-pop to another continent. It would lose the deer, so I'll probably shift the S city to include both deer tiles. The future double-deer city is a low priority anyway, as I'd rather settle the North first.

Health-wise Harbors are really good on this map: we have all three :health: water resources for a total of +10 :health: with Granary and Harbor. Not bad even if we're isolated. Math is probably gonna be delayed for a while, as there's not much to chop: I won't build Aqueducts and I won't go for Construction/Calendar anytime soon. If still isolated I'll probably research it just before Civil Service.

I have to remember to try to get a HE unit, although I'm not sure I'll head for Literature that fast. Even if I build the Great Library in the capital with the GE-polluted pool I might not get the needed GSs to go down the Liberalism line. On the other hand GEs might bulb Metal Casting and Machinery, which aren't bad at all on this map as they help me get to Optics... Ooh boy, I really should have played some LHCs...

turkis: Good luck with the Oracle, you're gonna need it. :) You'll probably want to pre-chop those forests before Priesthood is in, just to make sure you have a chance for it. Not sure if the GW was worth it, I guess the next round will tell. The good thing about the map is that barbs will come just from the North, so it will be easier to defend than on a more spread-out map. The southern cities will need one garrison unit and that's all. But I guess it made sense to build it if you didn't research AH because you went for the Oracle. Interesting take.
 
Round 1 thoughts:

Spoiler :
Even if I build the Great Library in the capital with the GE-polluted pool I might not get the needed GSs to go down the Liberalism line. On the other hand GEs might bulb Metal Casting and Machinery, which aren't bad at all on this map as they help me get to Optics... Ooh boy, I really should have played some LHCs...

@Carl:

Spoiler :
Hi!,

I think you should go for the lib line more than the astro line... As Rolo nicely explained it in his guide, the lib line let you better develop your empire (bureaucraty, Oxford, the FS) than the astro line. Plus when you met your opponents, it's unlikely you will want to trade astro and optics (to benefit from your advantage longer), so you won't be able to catch up as much as you can compared to trading paper-> education -> lib...


Anyway, good luck for this game (I will perhaps play the map as a shadow only... I have already looked at many spoilers before getting a chance to play :lol:)
 
@RRRaskolnikov:

Spoiler :
Yeah, the Liberalism route sounds better. The question for me was more wether I should try Liberalism -> Astronomy, or go to Liberalism by the fastest route, take Nationalism, then trade for everything I can. I think the first would require streamlining research as much as possible, as I'd need Metal Casting, Compass, Machinery, Calendar and Optics before finishing Liberalism. While a Philo leader could GS-bulb Philo/Paper/Edu/Compass/MC/Liberalism, this looks more like a cottage economy, I'd have to balance the delays for getting Literature and building the Great Library with the bonuses offered by the handful of GSs. Might go for it if I'm going "straight" for Liberalism -> Nationalism.

All of this is moot though if I do manage to contact an AI. If I manage to get the GLH in the Horse city its culture will help pop its borders a second time, and I'm more and more inclined to move the eastern city to include the eastern-most ocean tiles in its second ring.
 
To Carl no info beyound 1800BC
Spoiler :

save both forests for GLH, while whipping the necessary builds (Monument, workboat and Lighthouse). Now I'll have to whip things into the GLH, probably Chariots, as there's only one forest left to chop and one more production tile (horses).

Really bad. Building GLH in second city is already asking for trouble.
I personally also did mistake by choping plain forest quite early into GLH should have done that very late to use +2 hammers from tile.
I also wonder why you need BW so early? you are not pressed on land, no close opponents enough hills in capitol... Teching GLH techs allows to start it earlier while BW does not change much.

About city placement:
- I could have founded Horse city 1W of its current location to get rid of the desert and to increase the chances of border-popping my way to another continent if there is one nearby, but it would have lost the sheep, a few good land tiles, and most importantly it would have meant that horses would have been in the second ring.
Agreed here. Although i miss point why your third city is where it is. 1NW looks better.

There was good tip from sleepless [somehere in spoilers] about ocean tiles having slightly lighter side on that side which borders coast tile. I checked in few other maps it predicts extra terrains very well.
the capital has quite good production, why don't I try for the Pyramids too?
Cause you chopped out Paris for some obscure reason?

the SE city (sheep+crab+deer) might be shifted 1NE of its current location for the same reason as moving the horse city: hoping to border-pop to another continent. It would lose the deer, so I'll probably shift the S city to include both deer tiles. The future double-deer city is a low priority anyway, as I'd rather settle the North first.
SE city -- why not 1NE1N? of course that interferes with how you placed third city so i am probably just overlaying my mental dotmap.
 
Top Bottom