Immortal Cookbook IV: Pour la patrie

[carl corey]

Next round starts today from my save, reports due for March 20th. Play is up to 1500AD, with an optional report at 1300AD so we can discuss the situation if it looks bad. By the way, sorry to leave you in anarchy, I only realized it was 1000AD after I switched civics. There are four workers heading for the capital, two going to chop forests, the other two going to build mines. The double deer city is building a Buddhist missionary who will have to go to the capital. And there's an "i" sign next to the second-from-the-top north-eastern city, it means "irrigation" in order to spread it to the wheat (IIRC). And then there's the National Epic that is almost built in the capital, in case anyone wants to finish it there.

 

[Sleepless]

As I had this afternoon off and it was a choice between cleaning and playing Civ. Here goes.

- 1500AD

Spoiler :

Well I started off by going for the Taj and missing it. To be honest I didn't expect to get it but at least we got some cash from it. Next thing I know Shaka is WHEEOH and I'm pretty certain he was coming for us (note the scounging for 10 turns of peace was enough time to get some troops there, especially as we didn't have any at all. I think this is a shot of his first invasion fleet. It consisted of one tireme/galley with a Lbow and cat. Scary stuff.

This is his second fleet.

Mmm 4 cats/1 cb/1 Ha more scary stuff. I managed to get a level 4 unit to unlock the HE then took a peace deal giving him drama and he was straight back to pleased though wouldn't open borders.

Managed to get the circumnavigation bonus which might come in handy. Met the other neighbours both Hindu so for some reason don't like us peace loving buddhists much.

The idea I had before starting this round was to head for rifles/cannon and draft an army for Peter. So in the 500 years how many rifles was I able to draft? Mmm none. I sort of got sidetracked along the way. In the first screenshot I was going for astro. Handy for trade routes but not really on the way to rifles. Then I noticed the free GM was still available from economics (note 2nd screenshot). Duly grabbed and 1700 gold from a trade mission to Carthage (pre SM). Then I decided if I tech a little bit of const/chem I will be able to get them in trade. So even more deviations. Then thought wouldn't it be great if we got the SoL. Is demo on the way to rifles/cannon. I don't think so. I did manage to get to rifles eventually in 1490 but as yet haven't built any. Apart from the short war with Shaka we haven't been under any threat until now that is. Qin has just gone into WHEEOH (good timing on rifling) and I would be pretty certain we will be his target (about 90%). So when Peter came asking for this I decided it was worth it even though we are miles behind him in tech. Actually not as far as I thought.

For the moment I would like to keep Peter friendly so we can trade as I don't think we will have to many other partners.

Current tech screen.

As far as Qin goes we are too advanced. Han isn't very keen on us. I won't trade with Asoka for diplo reasons and the other 2 haven't anything we want. I just got music from Rag so would expect to be able to get mil trad and cash next turn if wanted from Peter for rifles which would enable cav.

Glance screen.

In theory not to bad but as I said Qin is likely preparing to attack us. Just a quick note we don't have very many troops so I might be an idea to build some.

Current relations.

Mmm some nice red there. Han and Rag declared on Asoka (was expecting that). Peter declared on Han. Then Shaka declared on Rag (could have been us). Happy times.

Some city screens. I did spend most of this period building infrastucture.

Paris. I built the Nat Epic there as it seems the main candidate for IW. Another reason I've selected bio. Alternatively at 100% steel will take about 4 turns. As for GP this round we had 2 GMs both sent for trade missions (1from econ). GS which was used for an academy and 1 GE also put in Oxford city as it needed the hammers.

Unable to get any copper which is a shame as it would cut the build time down considerably. This is the reason I haven't changed to Nat yet although I have gone for Free Market.

Globe city.

Not a huge food surplus but we will be able to draft nearly every turn if needed.

HE city. I was tempted to put it in the sugar/hill city in the North but thought with Moai this won't be to bad.

Oxford city.

 

[Betato]

To 1500 AD

Spoiler :

Ok, so I have my second try on thie series.. Sounds like fun for now on.

So, as I saw that Peter was teching at a high t rate and had an army big enough as to expand over Ragnar, I decided to turn tu Espionage in order to start advancing at his expense, so, this is the espionage screen on turn 1

Rapidly we took our first succesful espionage mission!

which i traded around all I could

Here I made my first mistake.. I wanted to be on a better relationship with asoka to be able to sell gunpowder also to him, but he didnt like me much, so I revolted to free religion (his favourite civic) though I only got a +1 modifier.. Over a few turns he felt he could trade me anything, though he has already gotten gunpowder, and I lost his good will again once he demanded for Printing press, which I refused.

So, suddenly and without even realising, Shaka declares to us, though he comes with a small attack force and I got a cheap peace

and get banking as everybody was studying to learn philosophy

Now I realize qin has no horses, so I get an incredible trade for a while (Had to renegotiate it half to this deal, still very interesting)

And after this, we're able to steal another valuable tech (now again, I have this tech which Asoka wants, but he doesn't like me enough to trade anything to me.. argh)

I teach Ragnar Paper so we can make more interesting trades

And as I saw peter was going to learn education in 2 turns, I take the opportunity to get some extra money

Finally, I sell divine right and Liberalism (both known to qin and asoka) and get

and

So now I'm not sure where is this all going.. I should have included a few national wonders somewhere along the road (Made my GP city, though it still lacks a few buildings to be able to act like a real one) And although we're sort of well defended, dont have any real attack power, though it may change in a while

Without more to say, I attach the save

 

[Sleepless]

@Betato

Spoiler :

Looks like you are going to have another war soon like me.

Just a couple of thoughts about your game.

National wonders. Getting Oxford University built as soon as possible increases your tech rate considerably (with slider at 0 obviously not much use). Going for Espionage I would have gone for Rep/Demo to get some ep producing buildings up. Jails especially give 50 % extra (I think) .The trouble with ep is you can only steal what the AI has researched.

Shaka's initial attack. I guessed he was coming for us from the beginning when he was WHEOOH. Without Astro he couldn't get to our main cities. Glad you got a unit there first. What I did do there was make sure I got a level 4 unit to open the Heroic Epic. Speeds up troop production considerably.

Globe Theatre. There is not a lot of production on this island so ideally by now I would have drafted a lot of units. Totally lost my way on this as I've only just got rifles and its a little late on immortal (but not to late ) to have a successful war with rifles.

Any comments on my game are welcome.

 

[Betato]

@ sleepless

Spoiler :

Yeah, I'm sorry... very impolite of me to post my save before even commenting on yours... hadn't that much time on this computer last days.

At your save: I like the way you manage to distribute different cities so quick in time, I don't normally have all the national wonders in all the appropiate cities by 1500AD. As you commented on my game, Oxford becomes incredible when you get it during the middle ages, as the boost it provides it's huge (on Oxford city you're producing 4 times the beakeres you get in Paris)
Also, it was clever to maintain the war with Shaka only to unlock HE.. Shaka declared on me early and I thought he would destroy me, so I made the peace as soon as possible.. Damn Shaka.
Think I'm gonna have another look at your save, seeing how in 500 years you managed to stand on solid ground.. think you're gonna win this round

At my save: Yep, first time I try solidly espionage at this difficulty.. I believe if I beeliend democracy and choose the appropiate civics, it could have become an option.. However, seeing the beakers you're getting on your Ox city, It doesn't make that much sense to go for espionage... not sure what are the conclusions of the above lines, but it's interesting at least (I'm just so tired tonight I don't even think my writing makes any sense.. so bare with me )

 

[Sleepless]

@Betato

Spoiler :

First sorry if I seemed to come over too critical in my previous post, that certainly wasn't the intention. Looking at other peoples saves makes you think more about what you could do differently and if we all played the same game/way all the time it would get boring very quickly. I know your early engineering in the previous save made me think. So next time when I attack an AI earlier than normal with a treb/cbow/pike stack it will be down to you.

 

[Betato]

@Betato

Spoiler :

First sorry if I seemed to come over too critical in my previous post, that certainly wasn't the intention. Looking at other peoples saves makes you think more about what you could do differently and if we all played the same game/way all the time it would get boring very quickly. I know your early engineering in the previous save made me think. So next time when I attack an AI earlier than normal with a treb/cbow/pike stack it will be down to you.

Spoiler :

Thanks you It's interesting how you start to consider different options when different people play the same game in so many ways.. I've also learnt a lot during this...ehm... series of saves, and looking forward to keep it going... we have to wait till march 20th, right?
About criticism, it's ok, sorry if it seemed as if I was angry about your critics.. I believe actions speak louder than words, so I decided to start playing a new game in the meantime and follow your advice rather than stating a serious post (I've been using the computer rather late in the night these days and my energies are simply drawn out)
On engineering, why you say you'd attack with a stack of xbows and pikeman and no maceman? just not to research CS so early or is there any other reason?

 

[Sleepless]

@Betato

Spoiler :

Regarding the Maces. I'd certainly build them if they were available but use trebs as main city attackers, obviously need enough troops to kill off the damaged defenders though. Shame these days they can't kill units (were to overpowered then).

 

[Soirana]

1300AD
Simply had no time to go on... Hopefully will finish untill 20th.

Will omit screenshot due to time reasons

Spoiler :

First impression how on Earth we are so bad [research wise] with GLH?
Second where the hell our curthouses are at 1000AD?
Third Forges before granaries?
Fourth 6 workers for 11cities?
Fifth - OMG Shala in full hand mode...
Sixth - Jesus I voted for this save...

Okay, i canceleed out all workers and all units i found. Especially navy.
Took notice of missionaire. At least we got that religion...
Luckily no waypoints for units...

Did some trades like crabs for wheat with Peter, also sold spare corn to Ragnar
Begged gran total of 40 gold, including ten turn peace treaty with Shaka. Decide not even trying opening borders with India and send at least some longbows at island

End of first turn...

Start of turn two

So we are teching compass instead some trait baits... Decided to finish off anyway, but first went through archery [longbows]
Check towards Oxford... We have grand total of four libraries. Well, last time i read about skeleton econmics it included libraries, it must have lost few bones since when...

Time to get whiping.
Instead i whipped granaries first [if food was lower than half]
Canceled Taj and finished that colosseum

Cried over Orleans [always though of it is NE GPP farm]

t163-done that stupid compass, after some thinking went for drama, when changed for optics. [cause i can trade for drama]
t165-Taj by Peter
t166-made few longbows start spamming budhism from cap [well again we are in organized and in phase of build up, could have made few more workers]. Peter goes to friendly.
t168-optics immediately met china's caravel... Also noticed unsettled land [apparently smallish island]
I would not call China backwards, although he knows Asoka damn know how long.
Traded optics for drama.
Started on guilds [towards economics] but changed towards PP [well again i hoped pick guilds in trade and PP would give immediate effect [yes i know we are in representation]]
t169- -1 turn to pece treaty with Shaka - sign defensive pact with peter. Here i calmed a liitle. Appeared without any reasons.
t170- paper+music+30 gold to Ragnar for Engineering [adding few pikes in case Shaka gets stupid with horses. Longbows do not overshine versus something like knights]
Also kept renegoniotiating our deals.
[at best i was getting arround 40gold per turn... even managed to pull sort off resource brokering - selling our clams for gold while getting someone else in trade]

t173-Quin gets Astro, so i sold him horses+sugar for - gold/pigs/fur/incense/5gpt. Happy increase was very nice with all whiping i was doing.

t174-Asoka asks for Nat, no way i would give him anything.
t176-PP, tried trading - goes to china for Guilds [has half researched, if i understand correct], start banking [main point here economy race.]
t177-finally see Peter's research
t178-Ragnar in full hand mode... meh. no Astro either
t179-banking
t182-Ragnar DoW on peter, so we get dragged in. And that counts me declaring on Ragnar. very nice.

t184 [more or less] I notice Shaka's fleet. Start whiping reinforcements.[just as i was starting to work on my national wonders] [i guess seeing 5-6unhappy due to whip is not oh so rare]

Of course he declares. Quite reasonable force- pike/4-5cats/few cxbows and HA's.
Of course he suicides HA on pikes while cats work on my walled city. I reinforce with cats and knights mainly.

I also saw Shaka's reinforcement and decided to upgrade triremes to caravels. And this cost me... Another GM form economics.

Well, none of known AI's had Education, so that was last unknown one. Further on it shifted Education to China next turn. So much of trading.
Since i also had Shaka on my head I went for furious trade fassion. Let say in two turns from not having gunpowder and using galleys[and Shaka had gunpowder] I suddenly was producing currasairiers and whipping out galleon.

In last turn Shaka payed something like 60 gold for visit to our little island and just befor that i managed to unlock HE

Besides: plan on national wonders:
NE- Avignon - i plowed one sugar to irrigate southern grasslands. Sort of long term plan.

Globe-Marseilles - coming soon

Moai- Lyons [guess HE also here]

Oxford - Rheims [already with Academy]

Paris - probbaly wall street as it is possible to lift 6 merchants+one i settled.

Okay i am still in war with Ragnar, so even if rifles are coming soon i doubt i would attack at them.

More likely two hundred years of buildup awaiting [i guess will go to caste as most cities are more less crying about slavery anyway.]

And sorry for save name Forgot to rename.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Well, last time i read about skeleton econmics it included libraries, it must have lost few bones since when...

Spoiler :

Are you going for Peter? You can bribe Shaka againt Ragnar now so Shaka has other things to do than bothering you... With some heavy draft and galleons, the job can be done (well, his frigates could be annoying)

Cheers

 

[Soirana]

Spoiler :

The thing we are still suffering...
At start of round heap of cities had zero infra...
All north is only starting to contribute something. Actually i was thinking of using beaureau+PS + heavy whipping in Globe to raise some cavalry. Of course force of grand total one galeon... In normal cities i doubt i can whip more.

On epic i would go. Now DoW on Peter would be loss of lot off health/happy. On other getting foodhold on that continent would be nice... Worst we had no espionage and Peter soon will have access to Security Bureaus while i hardly can live without representation hapiness.
Add jumbos on other end...

I am afraid we are still suffering from my wonderbuilding in first round. Hate to saybut maybe going for something else like late culture would be best. Unluckily i missed merchant on economics...

 

[carl corey]

To 1300AD:

Spoiler :

Peter completes the Taj just as I'm about to put my missionary in the capital and finish chopping the forests. I switch it to a University, I should get up Oxford pretty fast.

I decide to go for Rifling after all, drafting is too powerful to ignore and the Musketeers' 2 moves won't help too much here. I'll start by Guilds and Banking and hopefully will pick Economics on the way.

Meet Qin who's even higher in score than our local monsters and has Guilds and Banking already (he's in Mercantilism). Economics is probably lost since all he has to do is research Education and he opens it, but I have a good tech rate and decide to go for it after all.

I'm torn between Rifling and Steel. On one hand if I get a GS it will bulb part of Printing Press. On the other hand I want to go for Astronomy anyway, and with Chemistry I'd have a better navy. Tough choice...

I get the GS in Lyons on the turn that Peter gets Education. I'm a few beakers short of Banking. The problem is that Peter has the Mausoleum too, so he's in a prolonged Golden Age. Even spending my own GS on a Golden Age right now is probably not going to help me get Economics. Too bad. I decide to use the GS for an Academy in Rheims, as this game is far from over and the benefits will be better than bulbing right now. Tech-wise I'm going for Astronomy. (Sure enough Peter gets Economics first...)

I do at least get the circumnavigation bonus, although I somehow manage to miss all remaining land in the process.

Shaka declares war on me. I guess I should have seen it coming, what with having no military and all.

Meet Hannibal:

And let's see Shaka's stack:

Are you freaking kidding me?! I shipped over the Lyons Warrior, whipped an already half-built Pikeman, saved enough money to upgrade the warrior in case of problems, started Lyons on a Maceman and shifted tiles in Paris to get a knight in one turn... and Shaka sends two CATAPULTS?!? Well, buddy, have fun until the knight arrives.

Now THIS is more interesting:

Ragnar profits from the fact that Shaka has sent his mighty two-catapult stack towards me and backstabs Shaka, which instantly draws Peter's fire. If only I had Rifling right now, things would be so cool you wouldn't imagine!

Liberalism is finally worth trading away, as I get the rest of Astronomy, Gunpowder, and 400+ gold for it.

Shaka sends yet another stack:

I'm ashamed. I should have lost that city if it wasn't for Shaka's stupidity. Seriously, what's next?!?

Peter asks me to attack Ragnar and I decline.

I trade the new-found Astronomy to Qin for Printing Press and some cash.

Not far away from Rifles now. I start building Galleons, Musketeers in the capital, and I'll find a city to build spies. Too bad Asoka's still the worst enemy of Hannibal and Qin. I could have got some cash off of him too.

The really hilarious thing is, I get a Great General from this stupid war!

Thank you, Shaka! I'll attach it for a super medic and to open up Heroic Epic.

Asoka finally adopts Free Religion! Yes! He's no longer anyone's worst enemy. I trade Banking for some cash, as he'll only give me Music for Banking AND cash. No thanks.

Shaka still won't offer peace, but who cares. Next Galley/Trireme round will meet my Galleons, and that'll be the end of it.

 

[carl corey]

1300AD
Simply had no time to go on... Hopefully will finish until 20th.

Will omit screenshot due to time reasons

If you want I can extend this to Sunday.

Spoiler :

First impression how on Earth we are so bad [research wise] with GLH?
Second where the hell our courthouses are at 1000AD?
Third Forges before granaries?
Fourth 6 workers for 11cities?
Fifth - OMG Shaka in full hand mode...
Sixth - Jesus I voted for this save...

Spoiler :

First: I have more cities than anyone else, so of course I have less infrastructure, so less research.

Second: Cities only came up now, with a plan of forges/granaries/courthouses.

Third: Forges before granaries is simply because we're industrious and a forge costs as much as a granary for us. I haven't done the math on this, but it should be pretty equal either way.

Fourth: We could have used a few more workers, but come on, we have 4-5 cities that need almost no tile improvements anymore, so what you have is more like 6 workers for 6-7 cities. Not that bad as you make it to be. The high number of water tiles in the city crosses means there are much fewer tiles to improve than in a more continental game.

Fifth: Galleys. We all know that AIs are bad at intercontinental war, we now get to see exactly how bad since Shaka decided to go to war even before Astronomy. I probably abused this by not building any real military, but it did work, no?

Sixth: Well, the rest of the saves had fewer cities, some lost Liberalism, etc.

 

[Soirana]

to carl

Spoiler :

no offense i was just joking
although - re workers - i have not seen not needing improvements, while south is burried in jungle. I feel like making 4-5 in start of round would have helped me.
Well, i made... one...

Re: Shaka - 6+siege with 5 units is not that bad. Keep in mind i managed to prevent him unloading two more galleys with caravels. Luckily i was reinforcing city [even had walls] due to being at war with Ragnar.

re: forges vs granaries: i'd guess depends on base food. in food rich area maybe forge is superior, don't know.

Re:second: i saw your 1300 save. I don't say Oxford before curthouses is bad move, but i'd miss that heap of espionage 10 curthaused cities generate...

 

[carl corey]

to Soirana:

Spoiler :

Yeah, espionage is a bit lacking due to the late courthouses. I expect I'll up the espionage slider once I get Rifling to get enough to revolt a few of Peter's cities.

 

[Soirana]

Finished it to 1500AD. will try writing things i can remember...

Spoiler :

Well at start i was not seeing how i hit with rifles. I need rifles, some spies, lots of espionage, some siege for colotareal, galleons... And have nothing...
On other hand i am building bunch national wonders, which should improve my situation...

In short i used replacables as teching fodder which with some other techs gave me - chemistry and sci method.

We do have oil. Not a fort yet, but luckily on of souvces was already with road.

I also managed to be first to physics. Well, beat Peter by one turn, so there is GS sitting in cap. Really i thought of golden age tos witch to drafting mood. [we do have rifling].

I started on steel cause last 200 hundred years i've spent beelining artilery. Which is reason i put HE in there. Should me able to spit piece per turn.

Re:land- i finally shaped it to fit my taste. Sort of.
Espionage - i can't even see Peter's research, guess lots of Security beaureaus
Trades - i would recommend to look at that screen carefully, Personally i would not ttry what we are getting for what... Although i get 54 gold per turn from that nonsense while keeping population happy and healthy, so could not be very bad.

GPP- next person in
40+percent merchant/35%-enginerr/and some chances of scientist and artist.

Finished Forbidden palace, which is paired with Globe.

There were two galleons - one with settler+escort another with worker. These should have headed for silver. Very simple that is two more happy faces which we will need after hitting our friend Peter.

Most of world [except China] has hand fulls of desire...
Shaka and Raganar are exhausting each other, which is good since Ragnar hates us [sorry i was not about to hand him Chemistry or switch to Hereditary rule.]

Quin and Han have defensive pact. Well, Hanibal went in full hands while pleased with us and having worst enemy Asoka. Must be after India.

Asoka is also in full hand mode damn know how long.
Quin thinks we are to advanced, Peter probably techs rifling... So rifles and cavalry could be expected... Han would trade Constitution we have no use...

Ugly situation... Hope others killed half world or something like that.

 

[carl corey]

To 1500AD:

Spoiler :

I set up build queues to Barracks/Theaters/Colosseums. I want them up before switching to Theocracy/Nationalism to build/draft the army.

Heroic Epic goes in Paris.

Hannibal and Qin have signed a defensive pact. I don't blame them, my army would scare me too!

Asoka wants Nationalism, sorry pal, you can't have it.

Shaka wants some gold for peace, I accept:

I then immediately open borders with him.

Hannibal want to trade Economics for Replaceable Parts and I accept. I'll want the extra cash and he's far enough that I don't feel threatened.

Asoka is pissing me off again, asking me to stop trading with Ragnar. Ain't gonna happen, as he'll probably be my best ally once I start the war with Peter.

Finally get Rifling, and do a massive civics change:

After the first turn of revolution I get this:

Ok, this is just crazy! How the heck can I take on both Ragnar and Peter, with Shaka waiting to backstab, and Qin and Hannibal running away with the techs?! But I don't see other viable alternatives, as other AIs are further away, I'm not in a diplomatic heaven for UN victory, most probably not big or advanced enough for Space Race, and I don't have enough of anything (wonders, religions, techs) for Culture. Blaze of glory it is then.

Drafting starts all over the island. I'm raising the espionage slider, and research can wait for now. I don't plan on battling it out on the sea, I just want to get to Peter's cities and then hide my galleons.

Ragnar finally gets a tech I'm interested in, and I take Music too as I'll want to get Military Tradition soon for WP:

A look inside our primary target, thanks to espionage:

Finished the round. Peter is close to Cannons, Ragnar is getting closer to Rifles, but we can probably take them anyway. I have 37 Rifles, can't be that bad.

Chemistry is done in one turn. Most cities have drafted extensively, and I marked an "xd" near each city, with "x" the number of drafts just to have a shorthand to see which city should we draft next. Other signs are for National Wonders. Espionage is still only on Peter, we could probably use more of it after Chemistry is done. The Culture slider is at 20% because of the whips/drafts.

 

[carl corey]

I guess we have all the saves for this round, so voting can actually begin now. Since I'm away on Saturday that will help us get the next round started before I go away.

 

[Soirana]

1.carl
2.sleepless
3.betato.


I have not counted, but vassaling Peter/Ragnar/Shaka continent should be enough for UN cheese domination. The thing i do not like in Carl's save is Ragnar is quite good techwise. This means rifles might be not enough to kill them all...

Please, say i simply have not noticed your globe city

 

[carl corey]

Nope, no globe city. I had infrastructure up pretty late so it was either committing a city to building it now, or going ahead with drafting and building units without it. I chose the latter since we're in Theocracy/Police State; not sure if it's optimal, probably not.