Immortal game. Help me continue from Education onwards

[Eagle777]

I've managed to win my first war, with ease. Romans are an unpleasant neighbour, but they had no metal so Keshik's made quick work of them.

However, now it gets tough.

I lost the lib race.
I am planning my next war.

Gandhi is going for cultural win. He peacevassaled to Hammurabi, so I need to take out Hamu (otherwise Gandhi wouldn't be an issue, as he doesn't have much of a military usually).

So, how do I proceed? How do I prepare an invasion?

1) I decided not to build any universitiess, judging that I'd benefit more from a dozen Heavy Horsemen instead (or rather, even a bit more as I'll be pumping Keshiks and upgrading). Is that an accurate esitimation?

2) I decided that the first city I'd have to take would be something coastal from Hamu. Agree? Disagree? Which units would I need? How many spies? I'll probably have to land first turn, take some damage from him... But that's tricky, as he'll have cannons. His stack is at his coastal city closest to me.

3) GP city (Rome) will try to pop a merchant for keshik upgrades, although that isn't a given.

4) The rest (Sal) I can probably ignore. It would be hard to make them go to war, and even then it'd have to be a naval invasion.

5) What are my options with regards to tech routes? Which order would be good? Astronomy soon, for trade as well as galleons from two coasttal cities (Rome and the other one), then straight to Mil Tradition? Any trades doable on the way?
I have one Great spy and one GE and I can pop a GA with the GE alone..

Here are the screens.
Domestic advisor, their relations, etc.

 

[Eagle777]

This is the most likely invasion territory.
Perhaps I could even hit Gandhi first, and defend from Hammu in one of Gandhi's cities or in the open field?
That is also a possibility... But it'd make breaking Hammu harder than hitting him first.

 

[Eagle777]

And here's the save

 

[Pedro78]

A few (very general) things -

I decided not to build any universitiess, judging that I'd benefit more from a dozen Heavy Horsemen instead (or rather, even a bit more as I'll be pumping Keshiks and upgrading). Is that an accurate esitimation?

That's right, universities almost never worth it when going all out for Cuirs/Cannons. It's also better to bulb than to upgrade in most cases - GM upgrades are not very cost efficient and are basically only good when you have very high bpt and low production.

• Knowing that you couldn't win lib, you shouldn't have gone for Education in the first place, it's useless at this point of the game (unless you already have a big, developed empire and a good Oxford spot)

Much more to say about this game but I'll leave it to others (didn't look at the save)

 

[Fippy]

You are not in Bur. with such a nice cottaged cap oO
Must have had CS for quiet some time now? Academy missing too.
Actually you are using no Civics cept slavery, not good in 1400AD.

Some GP sitting in Rome and no golden age used yet for switching stuff around, overall the problem seems to be large empire management ~~
My advice would be not looking too much at what AIs are doing for now (like Gandhi, he's many many turns away from culture), but taking step by step plans for your cities and civics instead.
It's also feeling like you are trying to grow them much too large, even if the worked tiles are crappy stuff like coast or normal farms.

 

[Eagle777]

I thought I'd win lib, that's why Edu was there. Then Gandhi went berserk.
Also, GP was saved for a GA so that I can change to buro (Civil Service was actually quite recent for me) and free religion at the same time, with only one revolution.
That is kind of out of the window now.

I am not sure what the sentence "it is better to bulb than to upgrade" means.

Now, what about the future? War or not? Against whom?
What do we research? Do we aim at any particular trades?

 

[Pedro78]

I thought I'd win lib, that's why Edu was there.

Did you bulb/double bulb Education? Lib is usually not worth it early if you can't at least put two bulbs into either Edu or Lib itself (unless you lib some big tech further down the tech tree). For example it's much faster to self-tech MT (3380 beakers) than to tech Paper+Edu+Lib (6422 beakers).

From where you are I would probably recover and go to war with modern units. It's already T200 and you won't have access yo any good renaissance units in the next 15 turns, which is really late. But imo your current situation is the display of many mistakes that were made early on. The best for learning would be posting a game on the forums and playing short turnsets, and playing along with "veteran's" advice, like many people are doing

 

[Eagle777]

I see.

What'd be your techroute and tech priorities at this exact point? Why?

What buildings would you plop right away in your cities?

What units, in the mid term and long term, are you going for for the attack, and whom are you attacking?

 

[Pedro78]

Didn't look at the saves, but I'd focus on getting to Communism (SP, maintenance costs, workshops...) ASAP. Then AL (factories+power) and biology (+1 food on farms). Then Industrialism for tanks. In a more immediate future getting PP would be good for the extra commerce. But PP is usually easy to trade for. Go to SM via Chemistry, no point in Astro here. Don't forget you'll most likely be able to trade for some of these techs (unless you've managed your diplo wrongly or are too far ahead, which isn't a problem)

Buildings: granaries + forges (no hurry in getting forges, only whip away bad tiles, have plenty of time to get them up). Factories + Coal plants later on. Harbors in coastal cities. The biggest cities (15+) might need grocers/aqueducts after Factories+Power for health.

Units most likely Tanks (2 movement + CR promotions and can get Factories+Power before buildup), add in aircraft later. Can attack anyone if you have a tech lead, but prioritize your own continent. Doesn't matter much if you have a big tech lead.

 

[Gumbolt]

To lose Lib race at 1360ad means something went wrong here.

Your 2nd/3rd city had no food in inner ring and would of been pretty rubbish till they got a border pop. 10-20 turns in?
2nd city founded 1760bc? Imperialist trait too. That seem really slow. 2400bc would of been really slow for me if I waited for a workboat after the corn.
Capital has built every building possible. Apart from an academy.

50bc for a kk rush is way too slow. You wanted to be closer to 1000bc. Finishing 600bc.
Deer/clams city?
Sheep/clams to help with the capitals cottages?

Looking at the current game.
Your science is horrible. 222 science at 40%.

Overall you will struggle here. The Ai already have a big tech lead.

I would be rolling a golden age with great spy asap and running 100% merchants in Rome. Hopefully use a trade mission for gold. 1300+ per mission. Use this to push research. Your four techs off MTraditions. Question is what techs will Sal have in 15-20 turns.

You have 32 KK UU. Time to delete some or try to upgrade some? Using them on castles/musketmen/camel archers is wishful thinking. You would need a lot of great merchants to upgrade these but you need the gold more for research.

Honestly I think you will struggle here. Even if you take down saladin with Cuirs the other side of map will have at least Rifles. Sal will have a large stack here somewhere. 22 city Ai need big armies to take down. His protective trait will be very annoying.

 

[elitetroops]

Lib is usually not worth it early if you can't at least put two bulbs into either Edu or Lib itself (unless you lib some big tech further down the tech tree). For example it's much faster to self-tech MT (3380 beakers) than to tech Paper+Edu+Lib (6422 beakers).

It's not quite that simple as your cuirs need Gunpowder as well, which you reach through Edu or Guilds. On Immortal I wouldn't count on trading for Guilds very early. I don't like selfteching it either, unless I'm planning to use Knights, I like Paper and Edu more for trading. Of course bulbing your way to Lib is much better, especially if Lib->MT is the goal (there's nothing better to do with your GPs in that case), but even without bulbs it is not necessarily a bad idea to Lib. Already with one bulb I'd say Lib is almost always better than selfteching MT.

 

[Gumbolt]

A late game tech could be possible here. You might be able to trade for gunpowder here. You should easily be able to clear over 500 beakers a turn under a golden age.

If you go for tanks consider deleting some of these excess units. Workshops and caste once you have guilds and chemistry. Cannons and grenadiers could also be good as a starter. Tanks would be faster. You need to raise your game heavily here and start switching civics. HR/bureau/Caste/ Pacifism.

Don't be afraid to run Rome with a food deficit. So 10+ merchants.

Oh you need to try and keep Sal at pleased.

Trading resources for gold helps finances.

 

[Fippy]

Step by step of what i would do this turn..

first i usually check resi deals, so Cathy gets deer or corn for 6gpt.

Spypoints on Sal, he's the biggest AI and it's always good knowing what one of those techs.
You can for example sell techs for a little extra gold when you see they almost finished one.

Tech trades..i would suggest getting something for old Philo before AIs trade

Spoiler :

JC is currently teching that anyways, a step towards trying to get cautious with him again cos it's certainly a problem if advanced 22 city AIs have vassals that hate you

So i would also do this, over time that gives some diplo

Now you have some gold, and i would try putting 100% beakers into Astro this turn.
There's a chance you can get that from Cathy for Edu next turn, which would be super important.
Notice how you are not getting foreign trade routes, all AIs cept Sal are on another continent separated by ocean tiles.
Astro is very very important, and it's a good chance with Edu and Cathy.

I would probably also start a golden age and adpot Bur, Caste, Paci, Hindu and so on to get some better great peoples.
Most of your cities look full of buildings, so slavery not needed currently.
You want to lose those spies for example, should all be either scientists or merchants.

With all those big cities, Rep could also fix many of your beaker rate problems.
So after Astro, you could look at getting Natio & Constitution.
That seems possible with a chemistry trade, so you should probably tech gunpowder next and trade it for Engi.

 

[Eagle777]

Thank you all very much for your help; especially Pedro, Fippy and Gumbolt.
It seems very helpful, I already had a couple of a-ha moments.
I will digest it all some more, then play some more Civ. I see a bit differing opinions on how to continue.

I picked up what Lymond has said, too.
You got him good, Pedro.

Surprised he deleted his post, it was very useful.

 

[Pedro78]

Lymond,

I didn't notice you had deleted that post until now. That meme was just to have fun of you because you always, always state that people should focus on the early game, there was really no offense intended. You should know that I totally agree with the things you wrote there, and I also praise your huge contribution to help new players get better at this game every. single. time. I understand how much time and effort it takes, and I really respect that.

Now I'm sorry if my post was inappropriate and offended you, I really didn't mean any harm. It would be such a big loss if you stopped giving advice on these forums because of a single stupid meme.

I'll delete my post aswell. Now I'll stop here, because it is Strategy&Tips, not Memes&Drama

Sincerely,
Pedro