Immortal game -- need strategy help!

[Ramesses-Rules]

ok played very quick shadow to 25 AD and honestly not sure if this is winning position...

expanded to 6 cities easily, got stonehenge, mids, but got beaten last turn to TGL by Ghandi :-(, got the marble a bit too late :-(. Maybe some optimization in tech path is needed

did something very suboptimal on the way. Was late to the Literature - the detour through Drama was bad thinking on my part since I read something about Drama being good in Warlords in some other thread like this week, but didn't fit the gameplan (which is SSE/WWE and TGL is big part of it), if i were to play this again, I would make TGL much bigger priority, let's call it inexperience with Warlords.

The land is crap. It's mostly unimprovable until CS, no hapiness at all and what I realized Immortal in Warlords have 1 less happy cap which is BIG issue.

What is even worse I got 2 great prophets already and NONE scientist even if I expected the second one to be scientist

Got CoL this turn and could switch to caste which is probably best way to go now and try for the scientist from cap with flooding the city with scientists.

Obviously CS->Paper->Edu, bulb philo ideally and 1/2 of edu with 2 GS's. Academy will have to wait.

Should allow some backtrading finally.
Have CoL on them, but currency is too expensive. Ghandi holds Music.

Only 2 trading partners is bad for multiplying your research.

This map looks like crap sorry . Maybe someone else who would invest more time into micro would do much better (that TGL is BIG mistake on my part)

I think if I would catch up on the Lib path now with caste GS's the game is winnable.
Improve the land with farms and after MT just whip cavs.

Ghandi has like 8 cities which is not that much bigger then I managed to get.

ah that TGL...would have made the scientists business so much easier now :-(

Thanks. I am trying a very different approach now. I figured out a way to beat Ghandi to that seaport (and even the spot across from it). As soon as I developed the horses, pigs, and corn in Thebes, I had the worker start building a road toward the spot as I built my Settler. This gives the Setter enough of a "running start" to beat Ghandi to the promised land. Then, on the advice I got from a smart player here, I built Oracle in Memphis as I built Stonehenge in Thebes. Then, I used the Great Prophet to bulb Polytheism and just finished building Artemis in Thebes and Parthenon in Memphis -- which blew Ghandi off his Iron mine. That will be nice when it is time for war. My downside is that I still have only 3 cities and fragile economy, but plenty of good city spots left.

Have a look and tell me what I need to do next. Thanks for the help.

 

[vranasm]

sorry but using great prophet for polytheism feels so wrong.

tried to continue with the save I posted last page and as it turned out being 5 turns late to the TGL meant being late 5 turns to Liberalism.

To add insult to injury even if i run 5 spec scientists in cap I got 2 Great Engineers at 30%! odds... :-(

 

[vranasm]

ok checking the save

building CH in capital instead of granary is wrong. Too many trees around capital.

why you improved that corn far east without any city to work it with?

would have liked if you would solve the happy problem some way (monarchy/rep from mids)

would have like double the number of cities at this point (come on it's 250 BC!) there is ton of food to run scientists.

Memphis could run 3 cottages + marble instead those tiles you run right now and no need for "stop growth", next turn you will of course switch into pigs marble or cottage

Heliopolis should run cottages if you built them, instead of those grass forests.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

ok checking the save

building CH in capital instead of granary is wrong. Too many trees around capital.

why you improved that corn far east without any city to work it with?

would have liked if you would solve the happy problem some way (monarchy/rep from mids)

would have like double the number of cities at this point (come on it's 250 BC!) there is ton of food to run scientists.

Memphis could run 3 cottages + marble instead those tiles you run right now and no need for "stop growth", next turn you will of course switch into pigs marble or cottage

Heliopolis should run cottages if you built them, instead of those grass forests.

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I definitely plan to add cities ASAP. I improved the corn to help build Parthenon a bit faster (I had a sick worker). I will get the Jewish temple in Memphis to allow growth to 5 without unhappy worker and then send Jewish missionary to build Temple in Thebes to solve the happy problem there. Then build Library in Memphis, then work the cottages. I just got the work boat built for Heliopolis one turn ago and will now work the cottages there. And I haven't chopped the forests in Thebes yet, because I just got BW a few turns ago. So, I think we agree on all your points.

I expect TMIT would want me to get to Monarchy next to allow more growth, since I don't have happiness resources or Drama to reduce unhappiness. Agree?

I guess the good news is that Ghandi is totally boxed in by Elizabeth and me and has only 6 cities. Here is a good question for an experienced war-monger: By the time I get to Calvary and attack Ghandi, I expect Elizabeth will probably have Redcoats (!!). If she is "pleased" or "friendly" with Ghandi, will she attack me if I declare on Ghandi? I have no idea.

 

[vranasm]

they split religion so I don't see it as probable, but manipulation of AI's is part of game, so would be nice if you get Elisabeth to pleased and beg her for 1g before war against ghandi for 10 turns forced peace.

I hope you will field cavalry when AI is only LB's+pikes ;-)

i hoped I would show you, but since lost lib race around 860 AD wasn't probable. That lost TGL race costed me in shadow.

you had connected corn from thebes already...

your game is very slow with teching.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

sorry but using great prophet for polytheism feels so wrong. . :-(

That's not something I normally do, either. Usually, I would tech Poly and save the GP to bulb Theology. However, in this situation Ghandi and Elizabeth were both steaming along nicely, and as I figured that -- even holding back the GP -- one or both of them would beat me to Theology. So, I decided to bulb Poly and take a shot at building Artemis and Panthenon ahead of them. It worked, and I will trade a Great Prophet for Artemis and Panthenon any day of the week. There are always opportunity costs in holding back a GP>

Anyhow, the game has now progressed to 1000 AD. I have my 6 cities and aim to get to 8-9, because I also have 3 religions and could try for my normal cultural victory that way. However, I have decided to DOW on Ghandi with Calvary eventually. There has been an interesting development in that regard. The first boat from the other continent just arrived. It is the Japanese dude -- Tokagawa. Checking his stats, he is well ahead of both Ghandi and Elizabeth, and has built all the wonders we have not. Ergo, I am pretty sure he is the top dog in the world. He is "furious" with Ghandi, and Ghandi calls him "worst enemy." So here is my next question for you: Can I safely assume that Tok will DOW on Ghandi, and plan to join the war? That would be a lot easier than the alternative, but what are the chances?

Also, I now have a city that is pretty centrailized (in that narrow area 2 tiles from the corn). I am thinking of moving the palace there to reduce maintenance for Memphis and Heliopolis. Agree?

 

[Htadus]

Ha! That gets pretty close to "cheating", doesn't it? My game ethics requires me to discover the spot before I can send the Settler there.

Well I agree but I was just being funny.

I think I will give a shot at Oracling MC.

 

[vranasm]

that is safe to assume, but problem is that Toku has not Ghandhi as land target, AI's are not effective enough with intercontinental warfare (even if I saw in BtS some good invasions, but not with follow up, so meh)

so there is a chance that the only thing that Toku's Dow on Ghandi will achieve is that he will send him into military mode without reducing troops of him...
Better way could be bribing Toku once you DoW Ghandi, or he can possibly dogpile on Ghandi if he feels strong enough.

I tried yesterday another run from t0 and honestly...that Ghandi was on crack! beat me to stonehenge and then built TGL like 15 turns sooner then in the first shadow.... was sooo pissed off.

Thinking about doing 3rd run with ah->writing (quick lib)->mining->bw-->PH-->Construction with oracle while bulbing math and just kill him with cats.
Expansion should be limited to 3 max 4 cities.
happy cap will be big issue for this approach.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

that is safe to assume, but problem is that Toku has not Ghandhi as land target, AI's are not effective enough with intercontinental warfare (even if I saw in BtS some good invasions, but not with follow up, so meh)

so there is a chance that the only thing that Toku's Dow on Ghandi will achieve is that he will send him into military mode without reducing troops of him...
Better way could be bribing Toku once you DoW Ghandi, or he can possibly dogpile on Ghandi if he feels strong enough.

I tried yesterday another run from t0 and honestly...that Ghandi was on crack! beat me to stonehenge and then built TGL like 15 turns sooner then in the first shadow.... was sooo pissed off.

Thinking about doing 3rd run with ah->writing (quick lib)->mining->bw-->PH-->Construction with oracle while bulbing math and just kill him with cats.
Expansion should be limited to 3 max 4 cities.
happy cap will be big issue for this approach.

I am going to try something else tomorrow -- not sure yet. I am convinced of a couple things though. After you develop the horses, pigs, and corn in Thebes, start road building toward the marble seaport. I haven't found any other way to beat him to that spot. It will give you a good city from which to attack Bombay, and there is another really good production city spot near there where the land narrows. Use those three (plus maybe the city spot down by the river).

The other idea would be to wonder-spam enough with the Marble to blow him off his ONLY iron source, and then attack him with Knights. It is a narrow window of opportunity, because Bombay eventually gets it back in both my previous games. Unfortunately, I don't think I am a good enough player to execute that plan!

 

[vranasm]

Immortal Warlords is definitely tougher then Immortal Bts, so for me it's almost like new game to relearn

I am not convinced that if the plan is military rush hunting for so far away cities is good way.

That spot with pigs+2x riverside GH's north from cap is stellar city 2.

That corn south east with iron is another good spot.

coastal spots are nice (can be fitted 2 good cities on west coast), but fishing detour will only delay the whole thing.

The plan will be spare trees until after math ideally, with some of them to build library in cap asap.

The happy cap is big issue. only 4 in cap and 3 in normal cities. In BtS it's 5 cap and 4 normal cities... seems unfair :-D

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Immortal Warlords is definitely tougher then Immortal Bts, so for me it's almost like new game to relearn

I am not convinced that if the plan is military rush hunting for so far away cities is good way.

That spot with pigs+2x riverside GH's north from cap is stellar city 2.

That corn south east with iron is another good spot.

coastal spots are nice (can be fitted 2 good cities on west coast), but fishing detour will only delay the whole thing.

The plan will be spare trees until after math ideally, with some of them to build library in cap asap.

The happy cap is big issue. only 4 in cap and 3 in normal cities. In BtS it's 5 cap and 4 normal cities... seems unfair :-D

So, are you just going to concede the fabulous marble seaport location to Ghandi and put Memphis on the river instead?

If you put Memphis at the marble location you can build Oracle there, found Confucianism, and then one of Ghandi's religions always spreads to it fast. This gives you two early religions, which you can use to build Temples to help with unhappiness. Also, with the marble, you can be very competitive in building Artemis, Parthenon, or Great Library. Then, try to get Elizabeth to trade Math for COL. Also, move the palace to the middle to cut down on maintenance costs. That was a big mistake not doing that in my other games. That's kinda my plan for today.

 

[vranasm]

oh this one gives me headache...

did the cats thing with oracling Constr at 1350 BC and attack date like 750 BC...went totally nowhere after that marble spot and bombay since Ghandi threw at me horse archers to ruin my day :-(

cats are tooo slow even if they can kill in stack.

well that leaves us trying HA rush as last option to try...

that warlords datadisc is somehow really tough

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

oh this one gives me headache...

did the cats thing with oracling Constr at 1350 BC and attack date like 750 BC...went totally nowhere after that marble spot and bombay since Ghandi threw at me horse archers to ruin my day :-(

cats are tooo slow even if they can kill in stack.

well that leaves us trying HA rush as last option to try...

that warlords datadisc is somehow really tough

I have been trying to beat Ghandi to Liberalism today. He just beat me by 3 turns, so I know it is possible. I did one tech trade with him. Bad move. I am going back a ways and see if Elizabeth will deal with me. I should have switched to her religion long enough to get her trading (nice being a Spiritualist who can switch civics with no anarchy).

 

[vranasm]

hmm ok i think i found best approach... it is indeed the old fashioned HA rush.

Dowed Ghandi twice to extort massive techs

sitting at 50 BC with 11 cities, west coast has still place for 2 more.

workers are automated, didn't felt like microing the empire.

switched to monarchy this turn since i got the tech now.

Elisabeth has feud already, but that doesn't bother me that much.

Have Juda shrine
Ghandi was so nice to build SH and TGL in Delhi which I captured...too bad The Mids were build on another continent :-(

have currency so no danger of going to strike but it was very close at point (like 2 turns away from striking before more capture gold after reDoW)

Now I feel that this save has good chance for success.

Have currency on Ghandi so getting Calendar seems like good option for it. Getting Alpha through trades is useless since both partners know it already.

But it unlocks literature which probably would be good to get for building National epic

Not sure where to aim, but I guess for Lib now with the land after fixing eco.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

Congratulations! The HA rush is not something I have tried much, but I think I will give it a try just to see.

Questions:

1. How many cities did you build before the war? I would guess 3.
2. Did you attack with one large stack? How many HA's did you have?
3. Which city did you take first? Second?
4. Did you have pottery and writing before the war?

 

[Htadus]

I made a muck of this game. This is a brutal map.

Within say 20 turns or so I knew this map favored AI too much. So I decided to do a rush with the much revered WC's. I wanted to build the Mids, so I learned Masonary and about to complete Poly before Dowing. Oh and I also thought I had learned writing before this too. But that was wrong. I thought I had teched writing but that was some fancy dream. That wa mistake 1.

After claiming the marble city as my second city, I started chopping WC's. Once I had 8 I dowed poor Gandhi. Took his second city first and then his capital. Just before this I had shut down research to gather gold for maintanance. Next I took his next to last city and left him alive with 1 city south of marble city. In the mean time Marble city was building SH for failed gold but i messed up and completed SH. This almost send the empire into strike. Oh well that was mistake 2.

Part of my plan was to relocate the capital to India. But I chose his second city with many flood plains and once it was complet the economy was in good shape. Delhi completed the Mids and switch to Rep for some much needed happiness and a few turns later we got the gold connected. Once again I messed up failed gold plan by completing the ToA. Also built the Pathonan as planned.

I stopped the game at 150 AD with just 6 cities and a captured barb city in the far side of england. I am extreamly behind for a typical game for me but having just learned MC and tradeded for Alpha. i am ready for another war. This time with Lizzy. I am going to wait for cats for that. i kept India alive to be a trading partner. That worked out well.

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

I made a muck of this game. This is a brutal map.

Within say 20 turns or so I knew this map favored AI too much. So I decided to do a rush with the much revered WC's. I wanted to build the Mids, so I learned Masonary and about to complete Poly before Dowing. Oh and I also thought I had learned writing before this too. But that was wrong. I thought I had teched writing but that was some fancy dream. That wa mistake 1.

After claiming the marble city as my second city, I started chopping WC's. Once I had 8 I dowed poor Gandhi. Took his second city first and then his capital. Just before this I had shut down research to gather gold for maintanance. Next I took his next to last city and left him alive with 1 city south of marble city. In the mean time Marble city was building SH for failed gold but i messed up and completed SH. This almost send the empire into strike. Oh well that was mistake 2.

Part of my plan was to relocate the capital to India. But I chose his second city with many flood plains and once it was complet the economy was in good shape. Delhi completed the Mids and switch to Rep for some much needed happiness and a few turns later we got the gold connected. Once again I messed up failed gold plan by completing the ToA. Also built the Pathonan as planned.

I stopped the game at 150 AD with just 6 cities and a captured barb city in the far side of england. I am extreamly behind for a typical game for me but having just learned MC and tradeded for Alpha. i am ready for another war. This time with Lizzy. I am going to wait for cats for that. i kept India alive to be a trading partner. That worked out well.

Hey, don't feel bad. I tried to do the HA rush without any coaching help from Vranasm. I know I did it all wrong, but I don't know how he managed to crush Ghandi by 50 BC. I hope he gives me the answers to my 4 questions and any other tips on how he did it, because I'd like a rematch with Ghandi.

 

[vranasm]

Congratulations! The HA rush is not something I have tried much, but I think I will give it a try just to see.

Questions:

1. How many cities did you build before the war? I would guess 3.
2. Did you attack with one large stack? How many HA's did you have?
3. Which city did you take first? Second?
4. Did you have pottery and writing before the war?

1 - yes
2 - of course, first wave was 6 HA's 2 war chariots. Reinforced steadily, but never bigger then 8 HA's
3 - marble city -> bombay -> delhi - take first peace
4 - ah->writing - build library in cap and employ 2 scientists, mining, bw inbetween, HBR

Even if the save looks so good it's far from win imo since Elisabeth techs very well and I did continue a bit too unconcentrated to milk the big empire (automating workers plays big part of it)

but I feel it's strongest of the shadows I did up to now.

 

[Htadus]

Even if the save looks so good it's far from win imo since Elisabeth techs very well and I did continue a bit too unconcentrated to milk the big empire (automating workers plays big part of it)

vra, I thought your game is set for a win. Lizzy do not build many units and will have several academies. She will go down rather fast too. Once you have cats, you should be set for that continent.

 

[vranasm]

vra, I thought your game is set for a win. Lizzy do not build many units and will have several academies. She will go down rather fast too. Once you have cats, you should be set for that continent.

well she fielded longbows at the time of "finishing" Ghandi

that said i am done with it not only I miss so much BUG and BtS, but the map itself didn't scrub me right way to try to get my first Immortal victory in Warlords.

To me the lower happy cap in Warlords makes generating "right map" too overpowering. That's 20% less early game population in cap and 25% in other cities without any early game happy.

Have to say didn't enjoy it the way I would have liked, but made for interesting "find the right strategy for early game" though, so it somehow balanced ;-)