Immortal Mansa Musa

vranasm

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Feb 2, 2002
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Czech Rep.
In my neverending quest for finding fun in games and bettering myself I rolled today normal speed/fractal/standard/Immortal Mansa Musa game.

At first sight I wanted to regenerate the map immedietaly, but then I thought... "well you could ask what people think!".

So here I am with this start

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What you think about this position.
 
Generally I don't like coastal starts especially with leaders without fishing as starting tech and without forrested PH in range of city.

I made an exception because of all 3 seafood in coast giving me 3 commerce making it strongest tiles.

That would lead me to think about SIP, teching fishing with start to work on worker, then switch to WB. the only problem with sip is there seems to be no good early production with deforested hills (it is on the other hand advantage, because after worker the worker has 3 grass hills for mining without problems and i have strong sea food).

to the SW it seems there will be another strong coastal city
 
Two nice food cities to start - probably would explore and find a nice location to relo my capital to after awhile. On a lower level, would say GLH/Colossus would work even with no fishing, but on immortal, questionable whether you could get the techs in time to build (not to mention production may be a little limited in capital based on what we could see).

I guess I'd probably start worker/workboats - at least the worker could get your hills mined. Would love to find a happy resource or two nearby though - that would make this a really nice GP farm in caste.

I'm not playing much civ these days, but I have some time tonight, so I may flip through a few turns just to see. Mansa has such great traits he's always a fun play.
 
I don't see any real alternative to SEP. If you go south you will lose one move and the benefits of the river. Going north you will also lose one move, and probably no gain in resources.

Start fishing, yes. The choice is - start with worker and then swich to workboat, or carry on with the worker and then begin to build the workboat. I would probably swich to workboat since a worker can not do much until BW. You might research BW after fishing and then start pre-chopping forests for building wonders.
 
There's a pretty fun-looking game that you have there!

I would say:
Send the Warrior 1SW or 1SE, to reveal more the Coast for City 2. You probably won't get any new info that will change the decision of settling-in-place, but it is always worth moving your Warrior/Scout first, just in case.

Build a Worker (to completion)

Then start building Work Boats

The Worker starts by Mining the Grassland Hills River square, then mines additional Hills squares.

The Mines will help you to pump out Work Boats.

Immortal Difficulty? I'd say skip most Wonders EXCEPT for The Great Lighthouse. Make building The Great Lighthouse your early-Wonder goal. Then, expand a lot.

It is not clear what your tech path should be, since you may want Skirmishers or you may want to try and find Copper since you already start with Mining.

I think that Whipping would be useful in the early stages, so my instinct would be to start by researching Fishing followed by Bronze Working, especially since you don't appear to need any early Worker techs--you Worker can stay busy for quite some time and even if you run out of Hills to Mine, having Bronze Working can mean chopping a few Forests.

Sailing would be good to get, both for the Lighthouse and The Great Lighthouse.

Pottery would be nice-to-have, for Granaries to partner up with all of this Food: if you're going to whip for production purposes, it might as well be highly-efficient whipping as soon as possible.

Then you'll need Masonry for The Great Lighthouse itself.


Forget The Oracle, especially if you also want Archery--we'll already have researched too many divergent techs. Doing so frees you of the need to go for the Religious techs and you can optionally skip Animal Husbandry and go for Writing off of Pottery, after having researched the other techs mentioned above.

Preferably, you'll have built 2 Settlers before starting on The Great Lighthouse in our nice-looking capital.

I would not plan on moving the Palace. Rare is the day when it actually happens. As you said, you will get some nice Commerce from the Coastal squares, while Bureaucracy can also increase the power of your Hills. Getting a few Cottages up would be a "nice-to-have" item that can probably wait until a bit later on.

Important reminder: build at least 1 extra Work Boat (you could argue that you could build 2 extras--one for City #2). The "extra" one should go exploring, to help you meet your neighbours.


If you meet an AI, do not be afraid to Gift them a Fish or a Clam, even if it is your last remaining source of the Resource at the time. If they also have a Resource to offer you in trade at the same time, all the better, but do not wait for one to appear. You are likely to get more of these Resources on a Fractal map anyway.


Quite simply, the game looks like it will be a really fun one to play out and it will give you a true Immortal level feel, unlike a game where you get a Gold Resource visible within your capital's big fat cross.
 
Definitely, play it out. This is a game you will learn from, for sure, because it looks challenging at first blush. If you don't believe me, check out the spoiler...

Spoiler :


Hello isolation, and hello GLH:

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Churchill found me via galley though, so there's another landmass with at least one AI nearby. Anyway, I quickly figured out this was isolation, so beeline to GLH made sense. Went fishing/BW/sailing/masonry/pottery. From there, figured mass settler spam, building colossus in between, fill out the island, get a city on the nearby island for the overseas trade route, and use those two wonders to bolster tech.

If churchill isn't isolated, you'll have a trading partner at least - if that's the case, this likely becomes a much easier game, because all you'll have to do is worry about barbs (spawnbusting should be easy on this map) and possibly an AI galley attack until astro, while you can trade diligently and build up a good tech rate. No need to prioritize any other wonders, although GL is always a nice wonder to pursue. Didn't see marble or stone though.

Biggest issue I saw - no happiness resources. Means HR will be necessity it looks like.

All in all, looks like a fun game - if I was still addicted to this game like I was a year ago, I'd definitely play it out.

 
I have spoilered how I would micro-manage the first 50 turns. Honestly, there are a ton of little micromanagement details here that may seem annoying, but they are part of the fun of the early game: seeing how you can optimize your start in order to make the rest of the game go more smoothly and thus be more enjoyable. Besides, it's not like you have much else to do besides pushing a Warrior around the map.

After those first 50 turns, you can definitely lay off on the micro, as you will have set yourself up for success.

1. Still, try the game out yourself for 50 turns and see where you get.
2. Then, check out my spoilered images (I'll have to spread them out across two messages because I can only attach a maximum of 10 images to a message) to compare with what I did.
3. Finally, try running through the first 50 turns again by trying out most (if not all) of my micromanagement decisions. Hopefully, you'll learn a lot this way.

Enjoy! :)

That said, don't peek before playing... you'll learn less that way!

Spoiler The first 20 Turns :
Note that up until now, we'd been building a Worker using whatever square the City Governor chose to assign (a Grassland Forest square).
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Spoiler Additional Turns :
I had 1 extra Worker turn here before needing to move to the Forest, so I built a partial Road (I stopped building it before ending the turn) on the Grassland Hills River square that the Worker was standing on. Turn 21 would have had me moving to the Forest square that we would then begin to chop on turn 22.
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The first 50 turns continued...

Spoiler :
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Note that although you can't tell from the following image, I switched from working the Plains Hills Mine to the Clam before ending the turn, which nets us 5 Hammers per turn (via Food) when building a Settler instead of 4 Hammers per turn, plus 3 additional Commerce.

Also, you want to be sure not to "cut corners" with your exploring boats, in case they reveal additional land.
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Note that a Barb Archer arrived from the south beside my Work Boat on the next turn. However, I sent the Settler south and settled anyway and the Archer walked away. It would have been more disasterous had the Archer spawned near where we wanted to settle, which was the very scenario that the Work Boat was preventing from happening.

Obviously, if you'd managed to keep the initial Warrior alive, you could have used him to spawn-bust the area instead.

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I love Seafood starts, as they can give you a really great kick-start if you micromanage them well. Given that you are Financial and have an astounding THREE Coastal Seafood Resources, you're going to have a really fun game!
 
In a situation like that i would def. want to mine the hills for a decent production for the work boats, so i'd finish the worker and get this done.
 
Thanks all for the tips, I will check the spoilers after I play my 50 turns today evening :-), well at first I thought more about 20 turns, because when I get to play more I end usually in some kind of "civ rush" not thinking properly :-D
well maybe I can make some rule "after 20 turns, get up, cook a tea!"
 
well at first I thought more about 20 turns, because when I get to play more I end usually in some kind of "civ rush" not thinking properly :-D
well maybe I can make some rule "after 20 turns, get up, cook a tea!"
Okay, I split up the Spoiler Tag in my first message between the first 20 turns and then the continuation of the remaining first 50 turns.

There isn't much going on within those first 20 turns, so I'm not sure if it is worth comparing at that early stage, but it's there if you want it.
 
Hmm, very boring early game, followed by very boring space race...

Spoiler :
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I will use this post for my first 50 turns runthrough, which I will do tonight probably.

First 20 turns

Spoiler :


After all the good advice I settled in place, choosed fishing as tech and started working on worker.
My scouting warrior followed the southern pass, but I eventually turned him around to scout the northern part properly and fogbust, since I will need a lot work boats and every hand will be needed up there.

Biggest dilemma came in after finishing worker (well actually there was one before after fishing where I thought about switching to one of fishes for better commerce and later worker, but decided to finish the worker asap).
I choosed until I finish the GH mine to work the coastal tile to somewhat speed up BW a bit.

It turned out that my worker is ready for moving to another tile to improvement.

There are 3 possible ways to do it now:
- variant A - improve another GH - good variant since I get 4 yield tile, giving much needed hammers and helps with growing capitol
- variant B - improve the NE PH - more hammers that way for much needed hammers
- variant C - move to one of grass forrests of capital - BW comes in 2 turns, meaning I lose 1 worker turn, but could get in return 20 hammers in 3 turns after it.

I kind of like variant C most.

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to 50 turns

Spoiler :


I scouted my peninsula properly, warrior is on the move to scouting the distant land.

As it seems fog bust will be relatively easy. I have place for 5 cities overall on my part of land, I got even copper.

Techs went finish BW->ag->ah(WTH? why I have copper! oversight)->sailing (will want GLH)->working on myst for southern city
next will be masonry, then probably pottery->writing and switch off research after it's more clear if I meet AI's etc.

I managed to build 2 WBs, 3 warriors, 1 settler which is already in place for another city.
Capital will build the WB for southern city, then probably garrisoning warrior for happy, LH.

Improvements were chop grass->PH mine->GH mine, then I lost focus and blunder a bit around :-(, I have prechopped grass forest 1N of capital and 1N of southern city though. Worker started building rice farm since capital border popped.

Situation is not bad, but could be definitely better with the worker micro! i could for example road to south city for quicker placement.

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@Dhoomstriker

ha! interesting the first 20 turns went exactly like mine... I think great minds think alike!

the other 30 went in my case completely different though :-( I focused more on land units then you obviously and the scouting went poorly on my side

Interesting you choosed sailing right after BW. I think in the end it didnt matter that much. One thing I am really angry on me is that I teched the AH...needless distraction.

And nice catch with chopping that forrest 1NW of the riverside for the tree pop (even if a bit lucky) should done it too. I have more mines though (which are a bit useless without working pop otoh :-)).
 
@vranasm
Spoiler :
ha! interesting the first 20 turns went exactly like mine... I think great minds think alike!
Yes, I think that you made the right choice to work the Clam until the Grassland Hills River square was Mined.


the other 30 went in my case completely different though :-( I focused more on land units then you obviously and the scouting went poorly on my side

Interesting you choosed sailing right after BW. I think in the end it didnt matter that much. One thing I am really angry on me is that I teched the AH...needless distraction.

And nice catch with chopping that forrest 1NW of the riverside for the tree pop (even if a bit lucky) should done it too. I have more mines though (which are a bit useless without working pop otoh :-)).
Here are some of the similarities:
a) We both Chopped the same first Forest, which was a great way to speed up your early production of Work Boats and has a positive cascading effect on your game

b) We both chose to build a Settler around the same time as each other and chose the same location for City #2

c) Although you built the Settler 1 turn faster than I did, we will end up settling on the same turn as each other, since I built 2 squares' worth of Road

d) We both spawn-busted City #2's location, although you used a Warrior while I used a Work Boat

Some of the differences are:
e) You chose to build 2 more Warriors. The cost is essentially the same as a Work Boat, so I will say that my spawn-busting Work Boat is equivalent in terms of the number of Hammers

f) I Chopped 2 more Forests than you did. While, to be fair, one of them "came for free," but certainly you could have chopped a second Forest and still maintained good Forest-regrowth possibilities (as my game provides evidence of, since a Forest did actually regrow).

g) You kept your starting Warrior, while I had to build one to sit in the capital. Let's assume that you were to replay through my approach. It would not be fair to expect a Forest to regrow, but you could probably keep the initial Warrior alive and use him for Military Police in the capital. That would save you 15 Hammers, while the Forest only gave me 20 extra Hammers--so you could follow my steps and just be 5 Hammers short by keeping that initial Warrior alive... an idea that is definitely worth considering, even if you don't play forward from what I did but just follow through my steps as a learning exercise.

h) One of the bigger differences is that because I chopped a second Forest, I was able to get all 3 Seafood Resources improved for the capital. In so doing, as long as you are able to get our initial Warrior back in time to be a Military Police unit, you can whip a Lighthouse. The extra Food from working three +1 Food Seafood squares essentially pays for the cost of the Lighthouse, netting almost a "free" Lighthouse. The major difference is that the Settler comes out one turn later... which is actually pretty good--the extra Food has almost "caught-up" with the no-Lighthouse-approach. If we were to both build another Settler or Worker immediately after the Settler, we'd probably complete it at the same time, meaning that the Lighthouse would have been completely for free by that point. Since you want to build The Great Lighthouse, having a free Lighthouse (where the whipping unhappiness has already worn off) is a noticeable difference that I think warrants trying to play through my steps to try and reproduce them (although the missing 5 Hammers from the third Forest chop might or might not slow things down by 1 additional turn of building the 4th Work Boat, essentially delaying the Settler by 1 more turn, I think that it would still make for a good approach).

i) The other likely difference is that while you were building your Settler, you were working a Plains Hills square, while I was working a Lighthouse-enhanced Clam square. We already "counted" the extra Food as going towards making the Lighthouse "free," so the only remaining difference is the Commerce--I would have obtained 3 more Commerce per turn.


Here is my tech path:
Fishing -> Bronze Working -> Sailing -> Agriculture -> Pottery -> Masonry -> Writing (one quarter researched)


Since you probably want some land-based spawn-busters and since it is getting a bit late to build them, probably a better tech path, if you were to replay my steps, would be:
Fishing -> Bronze Working -> Sailing -> Hunting -> Archery -> Mysticism -> followed by your choice of Agriculture -> Pottery or Masonry

In so doing, after building the first Settler, you could switch to working more Mines than Seafood Resources in the capital and could pump out 2 quick Skirmishers, before starting on another Worker or Settler. I'd probably suggest that after completing the first Settler we go with: Skirmisher -> Skirmisher -> Worker -> Settler -> The Great Lighthouse (since we already have our Lighthouse built).

That way, you'd have some strong spawn-busting units and would not really have to worry too much about the possibility of interrupting The Great Lighthouse due to a spawn-buster dying.

I would probably suggest making City #3 the northern location--that way, the Skirmisher that you send up there can move to a different spawn-busting location after a Worker gets in the area to start Mining the extra Plains Hills square that the City will share with the capital. The Worker can then choose to pre-Chop Forests or pre-Road part of the path to speed up the Settler's movements by a turn. The Worker will thus act as the replacement spawn-buster and the Skirmisher from up there can move to somewhere south of City #2, with the other skirmisher being to the south-east of the capital, probably in the same spot as or near to where you put your Warrior spawn-buster.

That way, your empire would be very well protected.


Now, since you'd have an extra Work Boat that was used to spawn-bust for City #2, that Work Boat could do the following: improve the Clam for City #2. Since City #2 will form a canal, the Work Boat can easily get to City #2's Clam.

In exchange for being able to work a 4 Food + 3 Commerce square immediately, City #2 can begin to build a replacement Work Boat, which it can whip. Doing so means that Worker #1 can keep improving the Grassland Hills Mines to the south of the capital before improving City #2's Rice, so that you'll have the flexibility to work just the Fish + 4 Mines (at City Size 5) when building The Great Lighthouse, losing you only 1 Food per turn from your Foodbox thanks to owning a Lighthouse.

Once City #2 whips the Work Boat, that Work Boat can travel up to City #3. You can then start on a Monument in City #2, since that reason is likely why you chose to research Mysticism in your game (I put that tech into the suggested alternate tech path above because you seemed to want to research it and I think that the idea was a good one).

Then, City #3 can build a replacement Work Boat as its first build item, in exchange for getting to work a 4 Food + 3 Commerce square early on. See how this trick works? We keep getting a "free" Work Boat scout, albeit at the cost of lost turns of exploration, but in exchange for improved productivity in our empire.

All of the extra Commerce that we will get from working so many of these 3-Commerce Seafood squares can help to ensure that we get all of the necessary techs in time.
 
@obsolete
Spoiler :
Ahh, pretty nice in getting a free Gem and a free Silver, which would have improved Happiness by a sizeable +4!

I am kind of surprised that you did not settle the one-square island to the west of our continent--it would have been a marginal City, but being Financial, it could have paid for itself easily by working Coast squares while at the same time would have offered an overseas Trade Route for all of your Cities.

Late in the game, when the AIs have a lot of Cities it wouldn't really matter, but earlier on, it could have been quite helpful to have built.

Nice timing with the Spaceship screenshot. The effect looks pretty good. :goodjob:
 
This is a beautiful start, why would you even think of rerolling it?? FIN coast is super good.
 
@Dhoomstriker

great infos! Event though I had it read 3 times the second half to catch up with the thinking :-)

yeah I choosed myst for monument in city 2 so it border pops to copper and I have some reasonable defense.

OTOH if i go with skirmishers there is no need for early myst since that copper is not needed and in first 3 cities all important tiles seem to be in 1st ring or border pop from capital.

I am not sure with Metal Casting... Colossus and GLH would be great on this map and could mean that I will not build cottages (except for 1-2 in capital)

I will probably retry from the T20 save since that is solid and makes no difference from "optimal play" as proved by you. I like the early lighthouse better.
When I "analyzed" the situation my thinking was "why improve 3 food tiles when you will be too soon on happy cap anyway".
 
@ Dhoom

As a rule, I hate 1-tile islands enough, but when they have no re-sources, then I REALLY hate them. By the time I get mining-inc (if I bother with corps), it's usually too late anyway to get much use out of a brand new city.

BTW, the silver and gems didn't pop until just about the end-game anyway, so I don't think I got any use out of them either.
 
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