Immortal Minimalism, Chapter I - Hatshepsut

[Dhoomstriker]

There's a good chance that Huayna is on the other side of Monte.

Actually, it wouldn't hurt for you to send a boat and possibly even drop off a Chariot or something on the island to the SE of you. There might be a settling location with a cache of Resources or something that would encourage you to settle a City just to claim them.

One off-continent City will ensure that you'll keep some decent Trade Routes even if most of your trading partners switch to Mercantilism.

 

[yatta77]

@Dhoomstriker
Thanks for all that content in feedback, Appreciated!
Some things you wrote are "wow!", but also still a bit "obscure" to me... so yes, I wonder about.
I'm a bit too tired to reply now, I'll do it with a fresher mind tomorrow.

---

Session 11, turn 149, 780AD.
(first attempt, no cheats, no reloads)


The island south-west from Egypt.



Resources screen: Mansa is willing to trade copper! (for now...)



No Capac, Egypt won't betray Mansa.



Glance: Capac -3 annoyed, Montezuma +2 cautious. The other two pleased.



Montezuma unlocked horseback riding and metal casting.
Traded in horseback riding and metal casting plus 50 gold for code of laws and music.



The two unknown civilizations seems still in war.



Forge next in Memphis. Working hammers tile.



Forge next in Heliopolis. Working hammers tile.



Forge next in Elephantine. Working hammers tile.



Forge next in Pi-Ramses. Working hammers tile.



Finishing the Buddhist missionary, then Forge next in Thebes. Working hammers tile.



No Asoka, Egypt wont trade iron for just clams.



The Apostolic Palace is associated to Hinduism. Mansa is 3 turns away from divine right.



And still doesn't have metal casting.



The missionary spreads Buddhism in Pi-Ramses. Thebes starts the forge.



Memphis at size 7.



Alexandria at size 8 running scientists to avoid growth.



Egypt still have the monopoly of philosophy, Capac doesn't trade machinery.



Elephantine at size 5.



Heliopolis at size 6 running a scientist waiting for more farms.



Thebes at size 11, starving to run 3 scientists while building the forge.



Heliopolis at size 6 with an extra farm.



Alexandria at size 8 restarting growing (granary next turn).



Alexandria at size 8 with the granary growing to size 9 building the Maoi Statues.



Memphis at size 8 focusing on food and hammers to grow and build forge.



Montezuma unlocks feudalism.



Deal with Montezuma: Feudalism and 30 gold in for civil service and compass.



Montezuma is up to pleased +8 now (he doesn't run a state religion?).



---

30 images per post limit reached, the session continues in the post below...

 

[yatta77]

session 11, continuing...


Capac doesn't unlock machinery yet.



Alexandria at size 9 stopping growth and running scientists waiting for education.



Capac finally unlocks machinery.



Deal with Capac: machinery in for music and paper.



Overview of Egypt. Mansa is 2 turns away from optics.



Elephantine at size 6 growing and building the forge.



Thebes at size 11: finished the forge, next a Taoist monastery.
Next great person the next turn.



A great scientist was born and settled in Thebes.



Heliopolis at size 7 growing and building the forge.



Wine connected. Resources screen.



Glance screen: 3 pleased (Asoka +4, Mansa +3, Montezuma +9) and Capac +0 cautious.



Technologies screen: Capac discovered engineering.



One turn from discovering education.
Memphis at size 9 stopping growth and all hammers to finish the forge.



Thebes finished the Taoist monastery building wealth. Size 11, stopping growth, 6 scientists.



Discovered education, next liberalism.
Thebes, with forge, all hammers building the university.



Memphis all hammers building forge >> university.



Heliopolis, size 8 with forge, all food and hammers growing to size 9 and building the university.



Pi-Ramses all hammers building forge >> university.



Elephantine, size 6, all food and hammers growing to size 7 and building forge >> university.



Alexandria, without forge, all hammers building the university.



An overview of the Egypt



Technologies screen: Mansa discovered optics.
Egypt has the monopoly on both philosophy and education, which is good toward liberalism race



Resources screen: nothing to offer to Capac for those 7 gold.



Glance screen: 3 pleased (Asoka +5, Mansa +4, Montezuma +9) and Capac +0 cautious.




End session.


---

All cities are Buddhist and building the university (some are finishing the forge first):

Should Egypt switch few turns to organized religion? (which I guess is better)

Or should still run pacifism to settle an extra great scientist in Thebes toward liberalism?

Thanks in advance for any comment on the matter.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Montezuma is up to pleased +8 now (he doesn't run a state religion?).

He is running Free Religion. He must have build the Shwegadon Paya.

Memphis all hammers building forge >> university.

Yes, when you are Spiritual, you should be switching Religious Civics: fire all Scientists (or almost all of them) and run Organized Religion for a bit, get some Buildings completed and others partially completed, and then switch back to Pacifism.

The same could have been done when you were buiding Forges.

Mansa discovered optics.

There is no rush to get it from him. He will still be able to trade it to you later, and in the meantime, someone else might learn it and be able to trade it to you. Anyway, at worst, Mansa will learn one of Philosophy or Education and you'll have to trade the other of those two techs to Mansa for Optics... but you can do so when you are one turn away from Liberalism, meaning that he won't be able to beat you to Liberalism.

The Apostolic Palace is associated to Hinduism.

Haha, I called it! Now, get yourself a Settler and a Galley!

Actually, you should build a land-based unit and send it through Monte's lands, so that you can scout out his area (and confirm if Huayna is on the other side of Monte or not). Monte is unlikely to sell you his World Map anytime soon, but nothing stops you from mapping out the world yourself. A 2-movement-point unit would be a good choice, such as a Chariot.


In fact, your exploring unit might just meet the other AIs.

 

[vranasm]

@yatta

I love your detailed reports. but boy if anything you proved then the fact that running 6 city empire with 4 workers is clearly not enough.

What's your plans with Lib? what you want to take? You know it's not about winning the race...but about what to take from it too...

 

[yatta77]

Yes, when you are Spiritual, you should be switching Religious Civics: fire all Scientists (or almost all of them) and run Organized Religion for a bit, get some Buildings completed and others partially completed, and then switch back to Pacifism.

The same could have been done when you were buiding Forges.

This is what I was proposing as well!
The problem is that it is not so sure to me.

Pacifism
+100% points.
All the next great persons will born earlier.
Which means settle earlier, so generate science earlier, ...
In here you call this snowball right?

Organized Religion
+25%
This means that every 4 you get +1.
Making 4 , a building that cost 40 needs 10 turns.
Making 4+1(=5) , a building that cost 40 needs 8 turns.
4 / 5(4+1) = 0.8 (80%)
In the best scenario (making 4, 8, 12, 16, ... ) it is a _20%_ discount on turns.
Which means that organized religion only gives a 20% discount on turns.

Adding to this:

(a) the forge is already everywhere in this game for a 20% discount.
Adding organized religion civic (4+2=6):
4 / 6(4+1+1) = 0.666 (66.6%)
In the best scenario (making 4, 8, 12, 16, ... ) it is a _33.3%_ discount on turns.
Which means that organized religion only gives a 13.3% discount on turns.

(b) the capital has (+50% bureaucracy + 25% forge )
4 / 7(4+2+1) = 0.571 (57.1%)
In the best scenario (making 4, 8, 12, 16, ... ) it is a _42.9%_ discount on turns.

Adding organized religion civic (4+2+1+1=8) to the capital:
4 / 8(4+2+1+1) = 0.5 (50%)
In the best scenario (making 4, 8, 12, 16, ... ) it is a _50%_ discount on turns.
Which means that organized religion only gives a 7.1% discount on turns.

Take this game at this moment:
(a) building universities everywhere;
(b) once each is finished switch to 4/5 scientist per city.

I fear organized religion is not working here since:
- running it just 5 turns will probably not even benefit the capital which is already making the university in 6 turns
- running it longer will surely not benefit the capital and all the cities done with the university and running scientists.

Am I missing something?

---

There is no rush to get it from him. He will still be able to trade it to you later, and in the meantime, someone else might learn it and be able to trade it to you. Anyway, at worst, Mansa will learn one of Philosophy or Education and you'll have to trade the other of those two techs to Mansa for Optics... but you can do so when you are one turn away from Liberalism, meaning that he won't be able to beat you to Liberalism.

Exactly my plan!
But now I'm not so sure on astronomy anymore, maybe beeline steel?
(I never did that, but Nihil said that sometime it is doable)

---

Haha, I called it! Now, get yourself a Settler and a Galley!

Actually, you should build a land-based unit and send it through Monte's lands, so that you can scout out his area (and confirm if Huayna is on the other side of Monte or not). Monte is unlikely to sell you his World Map anytime soon, but nothing stops you from mapping out the world yourself. A 2-movement-point unit would be a good choice, such as a Chariot.

In fact, your exploring unit might just meet the other AIs.

The fact it is that atm I'm not so sure I want to meet them early:
- they are likely backwards
- they are likely not Buddhists
- they are already in war, and I don't wish to join that war if they ask me to
- I don't wish to stop trading with the known civs if they ask me to
- if they ask for other tribute, I'll give them, but just to make them stronger
- I have a good diplo with known civs, which means potentially bad diplo with others
- it might sound silly, but the less civs known out there, the less likely I will be declared by someone

I'll just wait for them to come here, if they care about it

Unless of course you give me a really valid reason to do differently
(which can exists and I'm just missing it)

Is there something else I didn't think about on this issue?

Thanks!

---

I love your detailed reports.

Thanks!

What's your plans with Lib? what you want to take? You know it's not about winning the race...but about what to take from it too...

Was astronomy. Now I'm wondering if I have a chance to get steel(?)
You think it could be done?

but boy if anything you proved then the fact that running 6 city empire with 4 workers is clearly not enough.

Uhm... sometimes it is true, sometimes it is not.

A couple more workers while farming ten turns ago would be handy, of course

But I'm building silly roads on forests at the moment with those four

I wish some forests grow on plain tiles to have few more lumbermills later.

So I'm not going to work any other "empty" tile before:

- biology + chemistry >> food enough to work many high workshops

- biology >> preserves on National Park city

- replaceable parts >> lumbermills on forests

Yep, I'm silly and weird, I know.

---

Thanks all!

 

[vranasm]

AIs having already Paper puts pressure on you certainly. i wouldn't be surprised MM getting Edu "soon" and then it's real race. there is that Philo blocker, but once he decides...

Too bad you didn't put EP's just on MM to see what he is up to. It's usually most useful if you play map with MM to put EP's only on him. His willingness to trade everything and big tech speed are prime candidates for sneaking around.

I don't really think you need steel in this situation. You don't want to make offensive warfare.
You would need gunpowder, eng, chemistry to unlock steel and that is a lot of techs.

Ironic enough getting PP through lib doesn't look attractive too (no cottages).

Astronomy... well you have the best techers on your continent so i doubt anyone else could be much of use (except you wanted to go for scimeth->bio).

Constitution - demo seem weak too, since you have mids and don't run any cottages

I think I would probably hold to your initial plan with Astro, opens Observatories and SciMeth.

I think steam power->AL is hot for you too, due to the kind of improvements you make (or better said don't make due to low number of workers :-D).

I think based on what you said you're basically aiming to hammer economy so Rep+bur+caste+state prop are your target civics and you should start to lay down windmills and workshops on mines and plain tiles.

Even if I think with small (horizontal) empire you would be better of with corps.

edit:
and of course watermills! they are very very very good

 

[yatta77]

Too bad you didn't put EP's just on MM to see what he is up to. It's usually most useful if you play map with MM to put EP's only on him. His willingness to trade everything and big tech speed are prime candidates for sneaking around.

Hey! What do you mean! I did that since I meet him. Was before turn 10 I guess!
All the EP in this game, were spent on Mansa!

I think I would probably hold to your initial plan with Astro, opens Observatories and SciMeth.

Yep, I guess so, also seeing what Mansa is researching: he just "forgot" the upper part and went guild/banking.

I think steam power->AL is hot for you too, due to the kind of improvements you make

Uhm... Biology first. Then what you said, then plastics -> computer for internet.

I think based on what you said you're basically aiming to hammer economy so Rep+bur+caste+state prop are your target civics

Yes! The only exception I'll be running mercantilism toward the Internet race, the extra specialist is handy. After that I'll take in serious consideration your and Dhoomstriker advice to switch to SP for the SS components, as soon as I can build them.

and you should start to lay down windmills and workshops on mines and plain tiles.

Almost. Improvements I'll make: _lumbermills_ (IMO, the best _ever_ improvement in the game, uhm... well you need _farms and pastures_ for food, of course, but I mean in association with food improvements and _mines_ on hills without forests). On plains without forests, after discovering biology: few biology farms if _really_ needed, all the rest caste system (and SP later) enhanced _workshops_. Few _watermills_ maybe also if switching to state property.

If forest preserves were available a bit earlier, with a tech like monarchy, feudalism, guilds, then lumbermills would be even easier to leverage. Biology is a bit too late to bother with preserves, and it is kind of after the lumbermill tech, so no time to build preserves then switch to lumbermills when gaining few forests.
Anyways, 3food+2hammers or 1food+4hammers, and +0.5 health, is very good IMO.

Even if I think with small (horizontal) empire you would be better of with corps.

Too much work, and I don't get the corporations mechanism very well: I feel like I'm always on the wrong side of the deal!
That's also why I run mercantilism a lot, and why I like your state property idea. So I'll likely be asking advice later more about state property than corporations.

Btw, what is exactly the meaning of "horizontal", "vertical", and "REXing"?

Thanks for keeping in giving feedback!
Appreciated, it helps with being concentrated on my game!

---

Session 12, turn 154, 880AD
(first attempt, no cheats, no reloads)

A bit of micro in Thebes to make 40 hammers/turn and build the university exactly in 5 turns.



A bit of micro in Heliopolis to grow to size 9 in exactly 2 turn.



Alexandria starving to run 3 scientist while maximizing hammers.



Time to rework the commercial deals: from Montezuma 6 gold for ivory



Time to rework the commercial deals: from Mansa 8 gold and wheat for ivory



Time to rework the commercial deals: from Asoka 7 gold for iron



Time to rework the commercial deals, with the fur unlocked: from Capac 7 gold for fur



Resources screen, total income: 28 gold, uhm... could be better... all those unsold resources up there...



Technologies screen: Capac and Mansa discovered drama. Asoka discovered engineering, as Capac earlier.
Mansa still have the monopoly on optics. Egypt still have the monopoly on education and philosophy.



Heliopolis stagnant at size 9 runs 3 scientists and 1 engineer.
Forge finished, the city next slowly builds the university.



Forge finished in Pi-Ramses. The city next builds the university.



Elephantine at size 7 without specialists, max food and hammers to grow and build the university.



Memphis stagnant at size 9. Forge finished, the city works hammers building the university next.



Overview of Egypt: the workers keep on building roads over the forest tiles.
Mansa is 3 turns away from discovering guilds. Egypt is 6 turns from liberalism.
Good synchronization of the five satellite universities for Oxford: 12 to 17 turns.



Wow! Capac has 420 gold and is missing civil service still! Let's take some cash!



What!? Not even a penny? That's a 1300 science points technology!



No. Not even a penny, even for just 1 gold Capac wants philosophy too! Can someone explain?



Well, he was really close at least. So close that was not even worth spend 1 gold to finish it?



No Mansa, Egypt won't stop trading with Capac.



University ready in Thebes, at size 11 the city is stagnant running 6 scientists.
The output is 192.24 science/turn. Waiting for Oxford. The ivory resources are free.



Memphis stagnant at size 9 runs 1 scientist and 1 engineer.
The city slowly builds the university working the ivory resources.



Eliopolis stagnant at size 9 runs 3 scientists and 1 engineer.
The city keeps on slowly building the university.



Pi-Ramses, the most satellite/auxiliary city ever, is 14 turns from finishing the university.



A bit of micro in Elephantine to grow to size 8 in exactly 2 turn.



Alexandria, 15 turns away from it, will be last to complete the university.



Overview of Egypt: Mansa is 3 turns away from banking (mercantilism), Egypt 3 turns away from liberalism.
Science output: 297 science / turn, in turn 154, year 880AD, with science slider at 70% and +1 gold.
The workers will be un-stacked from the next turn to save few turns entering hills and forests without roads on them yet.
The 5 representation happy cities have about the same population now.



Technologies screen: yep, Mansa discovered guilds this turn.
Egypt still have the monopoly on education and philosophy.
Time to decide if target astronomy (researching optics), or risk trying to "lib" steel.
In this second option, researching gunpowder might be the next choice.



End session.

---

Comments?

 

[paulmcc]

Just wanted to say that I really appreciate the detail you have put into your analysis of your game.

Already there are quite a few points where I would not even have considered what you have done, or at least thought about! This game is opening up extra and new strategies for me.

I am not in position to offer any constructive advice, but add me to the list of spectators with an active interest in your game.

Best of luck!

 

[Um the Muse]

You asked about the terms "horizontal" and "vertical" growths. Horizontal growth is, imo, any kind of land acquisition in general and more cities in particular. In my thinking, there are basically three levels: stuff in the original nine squares of each city; stuff in the outer ring that make up the fat cross; and anything else under my control (I suppose you could add your vassals' territory in a fourth category and land you plan on controlling but do not have directly under your control yet as a fifth category, but I group those seperately and not part of horizontal growth).

Vertical growth is any investment into a city directly. Food is an investment into citizens, hammers may be invested in buildings. Both/either can be invested in developing tile yields via workers.

As you've shown here, food investments don't always pay off handsomely. It's definitely something to think about.

REXing is short for "rapid expansion." The idea is that vertical expnsion is limited in large part to horizontal expansion (developed tile yields are generally better than buildings). So, what you do is willingly stretch your empire as far out as you can afford. If you're good, you often want to expand so far that you're at the brink of bankruptcy (in game turns, "striking"). You pull out with Currency and shrewd tech trades (hopefully involving some gold). Most also include workers as a neccessary investment throughout this expansion because cottages take time to develop, though some only include a couple of workers until the end.

I'm sure you already know all of this, of course, but maybe not in these terms. I also hope they help some lurker out there, too .

 

[Dhoomstriker]

All the next great persons will born earlier.
Which means settle earlier, so generate science earlier, ...
In here you call this snowball right?

Successive Great People have diminishing returns, since the number of Great People Points required to generate them increases each time that you spawn a Great Person.

So, the bonus from Pacifism is actually far from +100% if you are going to compare it directly to Organized Religion, since Organized Religion's bonus does not diminish over time directly (although it can be said to diminish indirectly as you build more Forges, Factories, and Power sources), but Pacifism's effect on getting you +1 Great Person has a smaller and smaller overall effect.


By the way, there is no "snowball effect" in terms of Great Person generation. A settled Great Scientist does not speed up the production of future Great Scientists. You do get incremental additions (I wouldn't say snowballish effects, though) to your Science rate, but those are diminishing in returns over time, too, due to the Great People coming slower for each successive Great Person.


"Adding to this," your National Epic City also does not get a base +100% GPP from Pacifism (work out the math like you did for Organized Religion), and it's the City that produces the most Great People, so it's bonus from Pacifism matters the most.


The real bottom line is that if you plan to fire most of your Scientists for a while, then you might as well fire all or almost all of them for a 5 turn period and just focus on collecting Hammers under Organized Religion, then switch back to Pacifism and rehire some Scientists selectively.


Without the Spiritual Trait, you wouldn't have that flexibility, but you'd instead have another Trait that you should be leveraging. If you're not switching Civics for opportunities like this one, then a good part of the Spiritual Trait's bonus is being wasted.

But now I'm not so sure on astronomy anymore, maybe beeline steel?
(I never did that, but Nihil said that sometime it is doable)

What's the point if you are not allowed to attack an AI? Likely, you'll only get attacked by a distant AI that is already well-prepared for war. Steel won't give you the ships that you'd need to keep your coastal waters safe, nor the ships required to effectively wage war on this distant AI.

Plus, you haven't even stated that you have selected a spot for Ironworks, so it's not like you need Steel desperately for that National Wonder, either.

The fact it is that atm I'm not so sure I want to meet them early...
I'll just wait for them to come here, if they care about it

It is very possible that they are on another continent. Anyway, the goals are to:
1. Map out Monte's lands
2. Get a Settler Party to collect The Apostolic Palace's Religion
3. If you can find Huayna, too, map out his lands

Whether you meet other AIs is not really the point and it's only a small chance anyway. Realistically, these other AIs could have found you via a Work Boat explorer of theirs long ago if they were reachable pre-Astronomy, meaning that they are probably on another continent that can only be reached after Optics.

Biology is a bit too late to bother with preserves

Given your apparent strategy to hope for Forest growth, then I disagree. Instead, you should focus on building more Workers, so that after your Biology beeline, the Forest Preserves can be created quicker.

Lumbermills DO NOT spread Forests. So, once you have placed a Lumbermill, that Forest will not be able to help in spreading Forests to horizontally and vertically adjacent squares.

It is generally worth it if you want to grow a lot of Forests to build Forest Preserves that will later be converted into Lumbermills. The Lumbermills should only be built on Forests that have no chance of spreading to a horizontally or vertically adjacent square. That is, if you are playing a strategy that favours Lumbermills--most players don't--but since you are, that's how I'd suggest doing it. So, build more Workers!

Alexandria starving to run 3 scientist while maximizing hammers.

See, if you had been running Organized Religion (which I assume that you weren't), you could have spent 5 turns workign Coast or Farm squares, so as to grow Alexandria a bit--it had sufficient Happiness and Healthiness to grow. After growing, you would have had the flexibility to hire yet another Scientist when using Pacifism. The Spiritual Trait is all about using bonuses in a concentrated form for short periods of time, then switching to using other bonuses in a concentrated form for a different period of time.



Also, as for Universities, yes, completing one in your capital would help, but the real bottleneck is going to be when your SIXTH City completes its University.

Forge finished in Pi-Ramses. The city next builds the university.

Pi-Ramesses should really be working that Corn... if you can grow it to Size 4, then you can switch into Organized Religion and Slavery such that on one of the last turns of running Organized Religion, you can whip the University. Whipping DOES use the Organized Religion bonus. Even though you have played forwards, you can still benefit from Organized Religion for such a case.


Similarly, Alexandria should be working a Fish Resource instead of a Grassland Forest, since it, too, could benefit from whipping its University. Food from a Fish used for whipping provides a TON more Hammers than do Hammers from a Grassland Forest square, plus you'd get the Organized Religion bonus on the whipping action.


Yes, switching to Slavery for 5 turns means not using Caste System, so temporarily you'd have to switch some Scientists to other Specialists or to non-Specialist squares, but then you can get Oxford faster, which means that rehiring the Scientists in the future will offer a lot more value than they currently offer. Will the temporary loss in Science and GPP (and it doesn't have to be much of a loss in GPP if you hire Merchants and Engineers instead--just Pacifism's bonus would disappear, not really much effect from temporarily losing Caste System) be worth the extra Science from an earlier Oxford? Probably yes.

No Mansa, Egypt won't stop trading with Capac.

Haha, it seems that Mansa "detected" that you were trying to sell Civil Service to Huayna.



Since Oxford will be instantly-built using a Great Engineer, it will arrive as soon as you have built your 6th University. Therefore, you should be immediately setting Research to a 0% Science Rate and start stockpiling Gold, to be spent on Science only on the turn AFTER Oxford is rush-built with the Great Engineer.

 

[yatta77]

Just wanted to say that I really appreciate the detail you have put into your analysis of your game.

Already there are quite a few points where I would not even have considered what you have done, or at least thought about! This game is opening up extra and new strategies for me.

I am not in position to offer any constructive advice, but add me to the list of spectators with an active interest in your game.

Best of luck!

Thanks! I'll need some!
Your comment is really appreciated!
I'm glad to know if this might be an interesting reading for someone.
Just take into consideration also reading some good generic guides written by better players than I am.

---

I'm sure you already know all of this, of course, but maybe not in these terms. I also hope they help some lurker out there, too .

No. Sincerely I never thought about the game in those terms. So it was a very welcome and appreciated explication ehm... I mean explanation!

---

Successive Great People have diminishing returns, since the number of Great People Points required to generate them increases each time that you spawn a Great Person.

So, the bonus from Pacifism is actually far from +100% if you are going to compare it directly to Organized Religion, since Organized Religion's bonus does not diminish over time directly (although it can be said to diminish indirectly as you build more Forges, Factories, and Power sources), but Pacifism's effect on getting you +1 Great Person has a smaller and smaller overall effect.

By the way, there is no "snowball effect" in terms of Great Person generation. A settled Great Scientist does not speed up the production of future Great Scientists. You do get incremental additions (I wouldn't say snowballish effects, though) to your Science rate, but those are diminishing in returns over time, too, due to the Great People coming slower for each successive Great Person.

"Adding to this," your National Epic City also does not get a base +100% GPP from Pacifism (work out the math like you did for Organized Religion), and it's the City that produces the most Great People, so it's bonus from Pacifism matters the most.

The real bottom line is that if you plan to fire most of your Scientists for a while, then you might as well fire all or almost all of them for a 5 turn period and just focus on collecting Hammers under Organized Religion, then switch back to Pacifism and rehire some Scientists selectively.

So you are positive I would have a gain on this switch!(?)

Without the Spiritual Trait, you wouldn't have that flexibility, but you'd instead have another Trait that you should be leveraging. If you're not switching Civics for opportunities like this one, then a good part of the Spiritual Trait's bonus is being wasted.

Yeah, that's why I wanted to do it, then I made that math and it looked not worth it.

What's the point if you are not allowed to attack an AI? Likely, you'll only get attacked by a distant AI that is already well-prepared for war. Steel won't give you the ships that you'd need to keep your coastal waters safe, nor the ships required to effectively wage war on this distant AI.

Plus, you haven't even stated that you have selected a spot for Ironworks, so it's not like you need Steel desperately for that National Wonder, either.

The only reason would be burn the GE on IronWorks. Build Oxford in capital the long way still faster than Ironwork in Heliopolis or Elephantine. But I'll go Astronomy after all I guess.

2. Get a Settler Party to collect The Apostolic Palace's Religion

This way I give a chance to the AI to win with AP Diplo? I'm just asking. AP it is complicate, but if I remember correctly if I don't have I can't lose the game... (?)

Given your apparent strategy to hope for Forest growth, then I disagree. Instead, you should focus on building more Workers, so that after your Biology beeline, the Forest Preserves can be created quicker.

Lumbermills DO NOT spread Forests. So, once you have placed a Lumbermill, that Forest will not be able to help in spreading Forests to horizontally and vertically adjacent squares.

It is generally worth it if you want to grow a lot of Forests to build Forest Preserves that will later be converted into Lumbermills. The Lumbermills should only be built on Forests that have no chance of spreading to a horizontally or vertically adjacent square. That is, if you are playing a strategy that favours Lumbermills--most players don't--but since you are, that's how I'd suggest doing it.

Ok, I know lumbermills DO NOT spread Forests.
Sorry, but I think you missed my point here. I was just saying preserves arrives later than what they would be really useful. But then yes, in forests all around Memphis I'll build preserves, also because a NPark goes there. On the eastern coast I'll build lumbermills since as you said, not tiles for new forests.

So, build more Workers!

Seriously, 6 workers would be more handy than 4 here, of course. It is just that it is like never the good time for me to build them. Look now: 6 forges are needed, then 6 universities are needed for Oxford.
As I said it is not a perfect game, I'm making many mistakes, as you see at the beginning of each new session I switch tiles after looking the screen shots and reading comments. I definitely needed more than 4 irrigating the land before, and I'll likely have few more later with lumbermills, workshops and preserves to do.
Don't bet on it, but I'll try

On slavery. Really I never got in to this mechanism. Please don't get mad at me, but I still don't understand how it is useful. I mean it is so hard to gain population... so hard to believe it is good to reduce your population and get angry faces...

Also, as for Universities, yes, completing one in your capital would help, but the real bottleneck is going to be when your SIXTH City completes its University.

Yeah! correct.

Pi-Ramesses should really be working that Corn...

Believe it or not, also if for different reasons, the first thing I thought watching the screen shots was:
Pi-Ramesses should really be working that Corn...
My plan is drop a couple of scientists in Heliopolis and works few more tiles, also to get the university earlier, no need to build it slow just to wait for the others. It was a poor choice.

That's what good in playing short sessions, you have time to correct. I settled few scientists to make sure to don't lose liberalism, now I am, let's finish soon the work without scientists, then gain an extra +25% on their output! Same with Memphis.

Similarly, Alexandria should be working a Fish Resource instead of a Grassland Forest,

Believe it or not, also if for different reasons, the second thing I thought watching the screen shots was:
Alexandria should really be working that Fishboat...
But dropping a scientist in my plan here also.

Will the temporary loss in Science and GPP (...) be worth the extra Science from an earlier Oxford? Probably yes.

This refers also to my previous question on OR civic. I would anyways get Oxford earlier. The point was what was the loss in terms of settled GSs. I probably got to the wrong conclusions(?). Again, I was doubtful in both directions on the whole issue since the beginning, since I was the one asking about it and proposing a switch to OR...

Haha, it seems that Mansa "detected" that you were trying to sell Civil Service to Huayna.

Yeah... but why not even 1 gold for that?

Since Oxford will be instantly-built using a Great Engineer, it will arrive as soon as you have built your 6th University. Therefore, you should be immediately setting Research to a 0% Science Rate and start stockpiling Gold, to be spent on Science only on the turn AFTER Oxford is rush-built with the Great Engineer.

Yes! I usually do 0%-100%-0% on science. Not really concentrate on that this game, I was like "it is going to be 100% all the time soon". Yeah, silly me!

---

Thanks all

 

[Um the Muse]

Good catch with the explication thing

So, how did you do a crossout effect?

Anyway, on the topic of slavery, I don't believe in using it in your core cities, but supposedly slavery translates food into production so high that each gives you more than a single . It's supposed to be great for cities that have some extra food but are low on production (the opportunity costs of the whipped person are too high if that citizen would have been working a mine).

Come to think of it might be perfect for you since you don't chop forests. Especially with SPI cycling.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

So you are positive I would have a gain on this switch!(?)

It should help you, as long as you focus on the gains that the Civic will offer to you. If you keep most of your Scientists hired, then switching won't help you as much as it could, but if you focus on Hammers, it will. Ideally, before you switch, you will focus on GROWTH in both of Pi-Ramesses and Alexandria... once Pi-Ramesses is 5 turns away from having enough Hammers to 2-pop-whip a University, then switch into Organized Religion and whip the last 2 Universities on the last turn of Organized Religion. Pi-Ramesses should steal a Corn and maybe even a Grassland Farm so that it can grow quicker to Size 4. You can probably work out the math for Pi-Ramesses, or else you can just "fudge it" and potententially spend a few more than 5 turns in Organized Religion.

Other Cities should focus on building Buildings during that Organized Religion time period, instead of say, Wealth or Science.

You should be at a 0% Science Rate anyway.

Note that if you want to build Wealth or Research for a period of time, and you have the opportunity to be in both Pacifism and Organized Religion, then you should build Wealth and/or Research during the Pacifism time period, so that during the Organized Religion time period, you can focus more on building Buildings that will benefit from the usage of that Building-oriented Civic.

The only reason would be burn the GE on IronWorks. Build Oxford in capital the long way still faster than Ironwork in Heliopolis or Elephantine. But I'll go Astronomy after all I guess.

To what end, though? Astronomy = Observatories. You want to get to Space, right? Observatories = improved Science.
Ironworks = +50% Hammers until you get Coal.

Given the choice of building one of those two National Wonders, and given that you do not have Stone, then I would say that slow-building Ironworks is a better choice for a Space game. So, really, you'd just be able to start work on Ironworks manually a bit earlier. Even if you did have 2 Great Engineers, I still wouldn't prioritize Steel over Astronomy, as the bonus to Science is what you are really after here.

This way I give a chance to the AI to win with AP Diplo? I'm just asking. AP it is complicate, but if I remember correctly if I don't have I can't lose the game... (?)

Well, look at Mansa's Cities and Gandhi's Cities. If at least one of the AIs does not have the Apostolic Palace's Religion, then you can't instant-lose the game.

Getting the Apostolic Palace's Religion would let you gain more Hammers, which can have a significant impact on a few, large-sized Cities--far more than they would have if you were focusing your base Hammers on taking over the world.

As long as you can't lose the game, getting to vote in the Apostolic Palace's voting would be just an extra bonus... most likely, you'd just be voting for Huayna to be the leader, which would give you +2 Diplo points with him periodically, for the "You Voted for Us" positive Diplo modifier.

If you don't have that Religion but Huayna manages to spread it to everyone else, then it is possible for the entire world to declare war on you once one of the AIs has declared war on you.

then gain an extra +25% on their output

The time of building Observatories would be another good time to switch into Organized Religion. Perhaps you will combine both the completing of the Universities and the starting of the Observatories to overlap within the same Organized Religion time period. Ultimately, you should save some Gold now that would be spent on Science AFTER you have Oxford in your hands. It would then be a decision as to whether or not you'd want to run Pacifism for a few turns while you're finishing off the research on Liberalism or if you'd just rather stay in Organized Religion so that you could immediately get the bonus to building Observatories as soon as Astronomy is yours.

Since you are so close to Liberalism, it's a debateable point, but I'd rather see you go to 0% Science, even though donig so likely means running 2 periods of Organized Religion (or even just 1 period of it for a good 10 to 15 turns or so).

Yeah... but why not even 1 gold for that?

He was probably 1 or 2 Flasks away from researching the tech. Or, it could be that "under a certain threshold," such as "5 Gold," an AI will simply "refuse to buy a tech." I just made that last theory up, but basically, he was so close to learning the tech that he decided not to pay you anything for it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

So, how did you do a crossout effect?

Someone else just taught me: use [ S] and [ /S]. I have yet to try it out, so let's see if it works: crossing-out some text.
EDIT: Ohhh, fancy, it works. Not only does it work, but it also doesn't obscure a hyphen. That's much better than how Microsoft does it.

Anyway, on the topic of slavery, I don't believe in using it in your core cities, but supposedly slavery translates food into production so high that each gives you more than a single . It's supposed to be great for cities that have some extra food but are low on production (the opportunity costs of the whipped person are too high if that citizen would have been working a mine).

One of the benefits of Slavery is that you can get something sooner. In this case, we're talking about him getting a +100% Science bonus from Oxford sooner in a City that has:
1. Bureaucracy
2. The Great Library's Scientists
3. Multiple settled Great Scientists
4. In an empire without a lot of Cities

It's totally worth it to shrink a couple of Cities in order to get Oxford faster.

Come to think of it might be perfect for you since you don't chop forests. Especially with SPI cycling.

Chopping a Forest at Pi-Ramesses might help, too, particularly if he'll let it regrow by building a Forest Preserve, but I wasn't going to force that idea down upon him. People can regrow but trees... well, it takes great care for them to become a renewable resource.

 

[Um the Muse]

Someone else just taught me: use [ S] and [ /S]. I have yet to try it out, so let's see if it works: crossing-out some text.
EDIT: Ohhh, fancy, it works. Not only does it work, but it also doesn't obscure a hyphen. That's much better than how Microsoft does it.

Cool. Thank you.

One of the benefits of Slavery is that you can get something sooner. In this case, we're talking about him getting a +100% Science bonus from Oxford sooner in a City that has:
1. Bureaucracy
2. The Great Library's Scientists
3. Multiple settled Great Scientists
4. In an empire without a lot of Cities

It's totally worth it to shrink a couple of Cities in order to get Oxford faster.

Yeah, ok, I agree. Darn you and your logical ways

Chopping a Forest at Pi-Ramesses might help, too, particularly if he'll let it regrow by building a Forest Preserve, but I wasn't going to force that idea down upon him. People can regrow but trees... well, it takes great care for them to become a renewable resource.

I don't know if that's a joke, but I thought it was funny.
Do forest preserves really help enough to make forests a renewable resource? I'd asked that question in another thread, but didn't get a straight answer. The best I got was that, while it doubles your chances or something, it's doubling (or whatever the multiplier is) a very small probability. I'd thought at the time that it was a shame, but maybe you know better?
That'd be pretty cool if it is good enough to be renewable. Man, if you could chop every turn or whatever, that might make Environmentalism even better than SP.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I don't know if that's a joke, but I thought it was funny.

Yes, sorry, I should have put a smiley in or something, as it was indeed meant to be a joke. Killing people and the use of slavery in real life are abhorrent concepts, but within the context of Civ 4, jokes about Slavery seem to be acceptable practice.

Do forest preserves really help enough to make forests a renewable resource?

To be pedantic, yes, they help. I've seen different people give different explanations for exactly how much, but the effect is real, particularly if you are patient enough to wait for a Forest to grow so that you'll build a Lumbermill there.

In yatta77's case, I'd chose to Chop the Plains Forest square to the SE + S of Pi-Ramesses, since it would have 2 adjacent Forests that would help this Chopped Forest to regrow. Of course, you'd need to "click" on this square from within the City view of Pi-Ramesses, so that the square becomes "lit up" (as opposed to hidden in the fog of war), otherwise the Forest Chop will go to the capital (Thebes).

He seems to have a decent idea of what he's doing by NOT building Roads on squares where he would like a future Forest to appear, since Routes (aka Roads and Railroads) will halve the chance of a Forest auto-spreading onto a square, while the precense of a Road on a Forest itself will have no impact on the auto-spreading to a Forest-eligible square.

it's doubling (or whatever the multiplier is) a very small probability.

While it can be relatively low in probability for a Forest to grow on the exact square that you WANT it to grow on, if you have several locations where a Forest can grow, then there is a reasonable chance that, over time, some of those locations will receive a Forest.

Forest Preserves do speed up the process. I have heard numbers from anywhere between 2 times as much to 8 times as much.

Increasing a "small chance" is certainly one way to look at it, but increasing "several small chances spread out over multiple locations," where you care a bit less about having every single Forest grow but at least would like to see some grow, will probably be a strategy that will lead to success.

Man, if you could chop every turn or whatever, that might make Environmentalism even better than SP.

Sorry, it's nowhere near that level of regrowth.

However, Forest growth and regrowth is an aspect of gameplay that is not too hard to manage and can lead to benefits, if it is done correctly. I have written a couple of scattered threads on the subject.

For example, you could read this linked message about Forest regrowth and the message that follows it (which helps to explain the first message with a bit of easy-to-understand math). It's an eye-opening explanation that even if you are trying to preserve your Forests, sometimes it can pay to Chop them, to give you a good chance for them to regrow.

The Forest to the SE + S of Pi-Ramesses is one such example. Of course, if he's already built a Road over a Forest, then it becomes kind of silly to Chop it in the hopes that it would regrow.

So, it really helps to plan your Forest management well in advance of Chopping and/or building Roads on your Forests. Yet, with a bit of knowledge, it is easy to expend only a little bit more effort to master this aspect of the game, which basically can give you a reasonable chance at free Hammers. Who doesn't like free Hammers?

 

[vranasm]

AP is dangerous wonder for multiple reasons ;-)

1) if you have the AP religion:
a) you can insta lose the game - spread it asap
b) can really annoy you if you wage wars (stop the war against...)
c) can annoy you to force you to go into wars (defeat the villain...)

2) if you don't... it's even more dangerous! Mostly because you can end being the only villain who is target of all other AI's .

SO I am 50-50 on Dhoom's advice with getting the AP religion. Those hammers would be good (especially when you're spiritual and have cheaper temples...)

About Unis+OU.
I didn't do the math, but some other people did and the theory says... if you have access, whip it asap! And this involves even 5-6 pop whips in cities! Your bureau capital can usually slow build uni, while you try to whip unis in other 5 cities and then you whip OU in capital.
In one of mine videos (I think it was the Willem one) I used this and I gained around 100 beakers on 5 pop whip of capital in next turn! even if the capital went from size 11 to 6 or something.
But that was with cottage city ofc. with your current setup where you get science mostly through scientists it probably wouldn't work well

Slavery
you don't see the light mostly because you are not setting up cities to use it. And even if you have great slavery city, one would say almost against your will, (that double fish spot in south) you prefer to work 2f1h tiles over growing into unhappiness and whipping it away into infra...

1 pop = 30H on normal speed... for 1 grassland forest = 30 turns to get that!

About the expansions
Horizontal = number of cities basically
Vertical = size of your cities
rex = rapid expansion

btw rexercise thread by VoU is good example of horizontal growth in favor of vertical (mostly because VoU was evil to us and didn't give us any happy resources).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Since you ARE only 3 turns away from Liberalism and a couple of turns away from a Great Scientist in your capital, I guess what you could do is stick it out in Caste System + Pacifism until you learn Liberalism (BE SURE TO GET OPTICS IN TRADE FIRST), followed by setting research to a 0% Science Rate, switching into Organized Religion + Slavery, and working Hammer-based squares (and even Engineers) while running Organized Religion.

Slavery would mostly just be for the last couple of Cities that are trying to complete their Universties, while Cities that are done their Universities could begin work on Observatories, without whipping.

You could certainly use this Organized Religion time period to work Coast squares or Farms instead of hiring Scientists, so that your Cities will grow larger and in the future will be able to hire more Scientists at a time.

With a Forest Chop in Pi-Ramesses (the Forest Chop coming in when you're running Organized Religion), then you should be able to 2-pop whip the University there soon enough, while probably 3-pop-whipping a University in your Coastal City.

Then, it would be up to you to decide when to switch back into Pacifism and Caste System--more time in Organized Religion means slightly faster Observatories and a bit more City growth, making the future hiring of Scientists to be a bit more valuable.

Soon, the primary bonus from Scientist Specialists will mostly be from their Science output and less so from their GPP output, so considerations of running Pacifism for a bit shorter or longer start to matter less, while considerations such as maximizing Science matter more. It may pay off to stay in Organized Religion for a little while, if only to get the Observatories out a bit faster, which are buildings that will multiply the base Flasks received from your Scientist Specialists.

 

[yatta77]

Session 13, turn 169, 1090AD.
(first attempt, no cheats, no reloads)


Pi-Ramses: turn 154, size 3, with 10 + 25% = 12 hammers the university will be ready in 14 turns, in turn 168. Let's try to accelerate it by one turn growing to size 4.
The corn (from Heliopolis) is being worked; hammers: 9 + 25% = 11: 15 turns for now, but the city will grow in 6 turns.



Micro in Heliopolis accelerating university. An observatory is needed here next.
Dropping scientists to maximize hammers.



Alexandria: working the fish to grow to size 10. The goal is add an extra scientist later.



Montezuma discovered optics but doesn't trade it evenly with paper. Let's make some cash.



Deal with Asoka: 4 gold/turn for wine.



Deal with Montezuma: 4 gold/turn for clams.



Science slider to 0%: 72 gold/turn in treasury.
Mansa Musa is two turns away from banking.



A great scientist was born and settled Thebes. This is the third.
(+1 great scientist building the academy, +1 great engineer)



Elephantine, at size 8, maximizing food and hammers to grow and build the university.



One turn from liberalism, the gold wasn't enough to trade optics for paper with Montezuma.
Let's put one turn in optics.



Bad news: Mansa switched to Islam. Glance screen: yes, two pleased and two cautious now.



Here it is the deal with Montezuma: optics + 30 gold for paper.



Egypt still have the monopoly on Education, but Asoka discovered philosophy.
Mansa doesn't trade guilds or engineering for philosophy. Drama is not enough for Egypt.



Egypt is first to liberalism: astronomy as planned is the free tech.



The next task is printing press.



Overview of Egypt: Mansa Musa is 3 turns from Gunpowder and still cautious.
Egypt starts pondering on building a stronger defensive army now: the closest neighbor is not pleased anymore and runs a different religion.



No Mansa, theology is not something interests me. And divine right as well.
So you can take theology and your 70 gold, I won't give you philosophy.



Pi-Ramses at size 4: corn back to Heliopolis, with 10 + 25% = 12 hammers the university will be ready in 7 turns, in turn 167. One turn was earned, in the other hand Heliopolis ran one scientist less (having to work two 3 food farms) for 6 turns. Egypt still wonder if this was a wise choice.



Fourth scientist back in Heliopolis, the university will be completed in the next turn.
Next an observatory.



Memphis working the cows from Heliopolis now: the university will be ready in 4 turns.
Next an observatory.



Alexandria at size 10, starving to run 4 scientists.



Technologies screen: Egypt still have the monopoly on education, liberalism and astronomy.
And only Asoka discovered philosophy: Mansa, Capac and Montezuma still need it.
If the space race was only about science, bet all the money on an Egyptian victory would be the wisest advice. Unluckily, avoid wars and build the components is part of the task.



Overview of Egypt: Mansa is 2 turns from Gunpowder.
Slider back to 100% science. With 306 gold in treasury, not used for optics.



Here the deal with Capac: engineering for philosophy and 280 gold.



A bit of micro in Elephantine to reach size 9 and finish the university in 2 turns, running also a scientist. Next an observatory.



Damn! Forgot the observatory in Thebes! Here it is: in 6 turns, running 4 scientists.



Observatory after university also in Heliopolis: 9 turns running an engineer and a scientist.



Mansa discovered gunpowder, and got philosophy somewhere, as Montezuma did.
Egypt still have the monopoly on education, liberalism and astronomy.
But Mansa has guilds, banking and gunpowder now, plus drama.



Elephantine at size 9 stagnant, university ready, next the observatory running one engineer.



Islams spreads in Alexandria. Too late, Egypt won't postpone sci method or anything else to build a monastery and a bunch on missionaries. Let's rely on Mansa missionaries (if it is worth it to leave to borders open after mercantilism), and Free religion still an option after all. Mansa is 5 turns from Education.



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