Immortal NA Cyrus.

[yyeah]

That was great description MegaLurker .
Certainly i allso felt a bit frustrated playng AW.
Looks like BiC is allso frustrated at least on screen shot , but at least BiC is still fighting .
I will have to deley a bit my 2nd attempt, since i started "a bit" bigger project but will come back to this map for sure.

 

[MegaLurker]

This will certainly take several attempts to get through, if I can get through it at all. It's hard to predict AI behaviour in Always War.

I imagine that building the 'Mids with stone is worth it for Police State alone. Edit: I don't recall how War Weariness is modified for AW, if at all?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I got better success in attempt n°3, when I finally followed Lymond's footsteps (props for reading the map that well on first try, Lymond).
Didn't take it very far (1000 BC) because of other maps.

Spoiler :

Choking the closest neighbour, rather than stealing workers from random ones makes a huge difference, from what I can tell.

I also went from a "settle 4 cities early" pattern to a 3 cities setup, which made it easier to get the army early.
This sort of trade off is hard to assess beforehand when one isn't familiar with the format.
I'm still not sure what sort of difference it makes. Maybe choking Peter is the single really strong move.

I'm not sure how important World Wonders, are, here.
I don't feel particularly attracted to the GW and Pyramids. If anything, and if the tech allowed it, I'd try to go for the Oracle, getting something like Monarchy in the deal.
Maybe the GW is good, though. It makes all tech steals a lot more conceivable.
Depends what you think your tech position is going to be, relative to the AIs.
Tech trading is off and that reduces the appeal of steals but they may still be extremely good.


Overall : not so sure

 

[MegaLurker]

I think the GW is worth it for the GG points alone in Always War. Get those super defenders up early, which should snowball a bit and allow you to settle a few GGs for level 4 units from the capital. Charismatic really shines, here.

I figure the 'Mids are worth it because Police State saves you a massive amount of hammers here, and because you can build it pretty slow and not worry. I don't remember if War Weariness is different on AW, but even if it is the bonus from Police State should be significant (enough to compensate for not running HR, even?).

I recall from an Immortal AW game years ago that a small handfull of super-defenders with a couple medics can keep you safe until knights. So pumping out a lot of early units should not be the primary concern, necessarily.

If you go the GSpy route, I wonder if it's not more effective to save at least some of those espionage points until you're ready to go on the offensive for city revolts. Having full visiblity on the most dangerous AI is also a huge, huge bonus.

 

[MegaLurker]

Dumb as I am it still only took 5 seconds to google war wariness for Always War. First result is, of course, forums.civfanatics.com. It's half the regular value. But considering you're at war the entire game with way more combat than usual, I'd say that 50% on AW is still more than 100% with normal settings. So Police state...still OP I think? Statue of Zeus potentially worth denying the AI with access to ivory.

 

[obsolete]

I'm so rusty I'd probably go down in flames around 1200 AD... but I may get around to this depending how things go at work next week.

IIRC, war weariness only really starts to hurt you once you begin losing units. The more you lose, the more it hurts you. And that is... it only really hurts the human player. AI's at immortal/deity don't really get any WW. IIRC I remember in one deity game near the end, we peeked into one of Shaka's cities using espionage... and despite killing EVERY FRIEKEN UNIT from the start he sent at us, he only had 1-2 unhappy at the very late stage of the game due to ww.

Oh, I could be wrong, but we may have even captured the SoZ city too... so much for that useless wonder.

@ BIC

Spoiler :

I don't feel particularly attracted to the GW and Pyramids.

Feels like a horrible waste since you had stone...

Let me ask you something... how the hell are you planning to tech your way through these wars? Because without mids and any luxoury tiles, I fail to see how you are going to do this...

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ Obsolete :

Spoiler :

The reason I'm reluctant to invest into GW/Pyramids isn't the hammer cost, nor is it the returns one can expect from those wonders.

It mostly has to do with the initial tech path.
I feel this map needs a BW --> Pottery opening to get the cities up in time and start developing the commerce base.

With a commerce special, I'd be a lot more inclined to detour by Masonry.
As it is, I feel the delay is too big to justify.

I may be wrong, of course. And maybe the GW is worth the cost of a settler and 10 turns in tech. That does seem like a lot to me, though, as I've stated

As for how to keep up in tech : heavy cottaging of the green land in the north comes to mind.
The leader isn't optimal but I suppose he can do it.
Again, no tech trades reduces the need for heavy stealing. Doesn't mean one can't steal at all.

I haven't reached a great position on this map.
I may try again later today, mixing my inclination (go go settlers) and Lymond's teachings (choke Peter).

 

[obsolete]

....

Spoiler :

Your initial spawn is basically flanked from all sides... I don't see how you are going to keep your cotts from getting pillaged to death. Assuming you even survive long enough to get them doing anything.

 

[yyeah]

@ BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

In my attemp i went for GW and Mids.

GW is great wonder on this map imo one can bulid it fast and benefits are just huge.
Not only that one can have +200% to GG's within borders it allso procides GSpy points.
And in my opinion GSpy is moust valueable without tech tradeing option -> c last SGoTM.
Cottage eco isnt too tempting like mentioned they can be pillaged, and have to grow and it just idk looks like a long jurney.
Teching willy be realy slow here since one allso dont have foreign .
With Mids and Rep you can run couple of guys and 1 GS provides allmoust as much as village ( village is just slightly better), and you can have it right of the bat. Add to this a lot of GG's from GW witch if settled allso provides + Gspy and steal some techs.... its preety good economy from my point of view.

What i want to say is like all this things alone arent that great, at least if you compere it to cottage economy( in standard game).
But if you put all eggs to one basket this looks preety strong, especialy with this particular settings.
And btw why not try something diferent right ?

Only reason why i would want to bulidcottages here what i can think of is, bulid SY with GSpy and go for pure economy witch isnt bad idea i supose.

 

[MegaLurker]

I'm so rusty I'd probably go down in flames around 1200 AD... but I may get around to this depending how things go at work next week.

IIRC, war weariness only really starts to hurt you once you begin losing units. The more you lose, the more it hurts you. And that is... it only really hurts the human player. AI's at immortal/deity don't really get any WW. IIRC I remember in one deity game near the end, we peeked into one of Shaka's cities using espionage... and despite killing EVERY FRIEKEN UNIT from the start he sent at us, he only had 1-2 unhappy at the very late stage of the game due to ww.

Oh, I could be wrong, but we may have even captured the SoZ city too... so much for that useless wonder.

War Weariness accrues for every combat action on a tile where you dont have the dominant culture, whether you win or lose. If this post is still accurate. The main one's that will be affecting us are:

1. Combat Actions: only gained where you are not Culturally dominant:

Your unit attacks their unit=+3 if you lose, +1 if you win
Their unit attacks your unit =+2 (win or lose)
You capture a unit=+1

Because we are always at war, the weariness will never be reduced by more than 1/turn. Obviously the real war weariness will set in when you start taking cities. Though it would get pretty bad if you have a lot of success choking early and perhaps even managed to hold defensive terrain outside our own borders for any length of time. I suppose if you build the Great Wall you wouldn't neccessarily want to do that.

I understand that the SoZ is useless as a tool against the AI on Immortal or Deity. My thought was that, with access to ivory, it is fairly cheap just to avoid the War Weariness penalty yourself. I'm imagining a scenario in which we're finally ready to start conquering. And you get to the AI that built the SoZ and suddenly you're getting crippled by unhappiness at the worst time.

But on further thought having those Great Artist points in your pool is a major downside.

I am mostly trying to find a legitimate strategy to not rely on Hereditary Rule for happiness. There will of course be extremely limited happiness buffs. I guess for the first 100 turns or so it will be limited to the +1 from Totem Poles. So maybe HR or Rep will be obligatory in the early game in any case.

Edit: I am also leery of developing cottages. We have a lot of food in the capital, rep scientists would be a lot safer, assuming they're enough to get you into a winning position. Maybe not.

 

[MegaLurker]

How do the players much better than myself feel about a no-worker opening?

I've just tried the following:

-build barracks til size 4
-mining->bw
-2-pop whip a dog soldier into whatever (settler, back into finishing barracks)

I did this with no map knowledge so I started exploring in a way that didn't get me a stolen worker until quite late. So I will have worked unimproved tiles for a full 50 turns. Maybe this strategy is only optimal if you cheese it with map knowledge to snag a worker really early.

edit: I can't seem to play this with BAT mod. When I try to to open a save with the mod loaded it has to restart the game without the mod?

 

[lymond]

That's cause BAT is standalone, so save must be created in BAT. Other option is to open save normally, open WB, create WB save, and play it as scenario. Just add barb techs.

I think no worker opening is a good idea in AW, but I would build warriors quickly. Go kill scouts and animals to get them to WWII and go stealing workers asap. It's very feasible approach. I would not worry about settlers until you get the workers.

 

[obsolete]

Thanks Mega, I have a flashback from years ago no reading something about the culture difference... I"ll get to reading that thread later on today sometime.

How do the players much better than myself feel about a no-worker opening?

I would call that a GAMBIT strat...

By the way... one thing I noticed in STANDARD games, sometimes the AI will NOT leave a worker alone period, without keeping an archer following him on each tile he improves around the starting cap. Other AI's are open up to stealing.

Someone know why the mechanics are so iffy on this? I have not played enough recently to narrow down my theories.

 

[lymond]

Not totally sure myself, but I've seen that myself. Sometimes if I'm stealing from one AI, the others will protect their workers..sometimes. I've seen AIs protect their workers even before any aggression on my part.

My guess is it has something to do with a units coding when built. Some units are coded to defend (you may have noticed a city's defenders not attacking your warrior if next to the a city, even though it is a sure kill). Others are coded to attack, explore or defend workers/settlers

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Do you have any screenshot for share, Lymond ?

Here's mine most recent @ 975 BC

Spoiler :

Where to settle ? Where to settle ?
I wanted that cornside hill in the west but Hammurabi has just taken it.

Yes, yes, many non-hill cities.
Writing and Archery just in. Now going for IW, hoping to take down Peter/Mehmed.
7 cottages, 5 hamlets, 7 workers (6 stolen, followed your advice here again).
3 granaries.
8 dogs, 2 spears, 2 warriors, paying 9 gpt for support.

 

[dutchfire]

Spoiler :

Plains hill 4E of the capital? It is a hill, and hopefully it will make the Arabs from the east attack it instead of the capital.
It can share some tiles with the capital.

To the north, Ivory+Rice and double Gem are nice, but will need IW and loads of worker turns.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, @ Dutchfire :

Spoiler :

I went for corn + gems
I think it makes the most sense. With Writing in, I'm not actually that far from IW and worker turns aren't as much of a problem as the happy cap is, at this point.
Cities can't work many tiles, so there's not much to improve.
Also, maintenance is getting high, so sources of free commerce are much welcome.

The plains to the east is an interesting thought. It may be good.
I guess I should try and scout the area.

Danger comes from the west. There's only Arabia to the East, so settling a defensive spot, there, is of low priority.

 

[MegaLurker]

That's cause BAT is standalone, so save must be created in BAT. Other option is to open save normally, open WB, create WB save, and play it as scenario. Just add barb techs.

Thanks, I'll try this. Too much effort to calculate whip overflow every time

I think no worker opening is a good idea in AW, but I would build warriors quickly. Go kill scouts and animals to get them to WWII and go stealing workers asap. It's very feasible approach. I would not worry about settlers until you get the workers.

Without map knowledge and starting off in the wrong direction, whipping a Dog Soldier 1 turn after BW is in still allows you to get a headstart on pillaging multiple AIs. The warrior you start with should get to Woodsman II within the first ~25 turns or less no matter what, which is great for worker stealing. But it can't do the pillaging that an early Dog Soldier can.

With map knowledge I think the mining->BW->whip Dog Soldier at size 4 opening should have a stolen worker back in your territory not many turns later than finishing a self-built one. Pretty cheesy thing to do, though.

Thanks Mega, I have a flashback from years ago no reading something about the culture difference... I"ll get to reading that thread later on today sometime.


I would call that a GAMBIT strat...

Agreed, high possible reward but in my first play-through I didn't have the first stolen worker improving a tile until something like turn 52. That definitely didn't pay off.

By the way... one thing I noticed in STANDARD games, sometimes the AI will NOT leave a worker alone period, without keeping an archer following him on each tile he improves around the starting cap. Other AI's are open up to stealing.

Someone know why the mechanics are so iffy on this? I have not played enough recently to narrow down my theories.

It seems like the best worker stealing is to be had really early before the AI has built enough archers to assign them to escort. Also the AI fails to compensate for the human player having Woodsman II, as we all know and abuse. There should be several workers available to steal early, the charismatic trait making it that much quicker.

 

[dutchfire]

Spoiler :

I don't know what the typical AW strategies are. If Arabia is the only thing to your east, it might make sense to try to knock him out around Elepult/Trebuchet time. That means you have a safe eastern side and you can cottage all that lovely green land. Of course, I don't know if you can get enough units to launch an offensive.

 

[MegaLurker]

Perhaps I'm not the only one that forgot this game has Aggressive AI. I think this makes late wonder dates even safer, no?

edit: welp, that doesn't apply to AIs you meet late. Until you meet them they're just operating normally, this combined with my no-worker-all-choke opening cost me the Great Wall (around 2100 BC, the AI probably started building it before we met and declared war). Beelining BW combined with too many early hammers into Dog Soldiers.

I don't think the slower start and especially missing the GW are worth the increased choking. Although it was impressive, 80+ gold from pillaged improvements, 8 or so stolen workers, a handful of archers killed.

I'll re-start with a worker-first opening, and go mining-masonry-wheel to get the GW safely.