Immortal NA Cyrus.

[Rusten]

@BiC

Spoiler :

Only 3 cities yes, but all of them were riverside which helps a lot. As you say it gave me incredible commerce early on. It's a bit of a shame not to make more of the cheap settlers, but instead it was very easy to defend. I didn't have any worrying moments where I was uncertain where a stack was going, be it enemy or my HAs.
Unfortunately I didn't have time to make alot of culture buildings so I never got the sheep to the south peacefully but all the same a pretty good city.

Mostly chopped the HAs yes. I only whipped when I reached my happy/health limit or had no good tiles left. Did not rely on it here.

Snaaty has a lot of experience with these settings so he would know what to do.
I think I played an AW succession game here on this site once too, but it's a long time ago and I can't remember who I played with even. I guess MP (pitboss) experience also comes in handy here.

Another boon of mounted units is the ability to take out siege in huge stacks (flank attack). IMO critically important for these games. My HAs will soon become a bit outdated for attacking, but I can still give them flanking 2 and get rid of siege and then longbows hold the city easily. This won't be needed for every attack, but if for instance the #1 civ comes with a large force it will be necessary. The next big offensive tech is knights.

Use what remains of well-promoted HAs to take out Peter, or at the very least disturb him, and get new ones with immediate flanking 2 while awaiting knights.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ Rusten :

Spoiler :

Do you mean you would target Guilds before Civil Service ?
I'm not sure if that would be right because of Bureaucracy. Also, imho, Macemen could as well be the next big offensive unit with some siege support.

Banking, otoh, seems like a very nice tech target to keep the slider up with no-trades + heavy cottages. Much better than, say, Education.
Maybe you should keep the slider down while waiting on some more science multipliers. Your multipliers seem to be the most problematic point of your game, at the moment. Or is it that maintenance has exploded ?

Looking at your game, I agree that Peter will probably fall to your HAs.
From there, the way I see it, gathering a 30+ units stack is all you will need to invade the western AIs. And whatever the units you have. Knights are good but a mixed stack with siege can be equally good, if not better (less losses).

I wouldn't be surprised if you reached Conquest/Dom around 1200 AD. Maybe a little bit later because moving the army around takes time.


@multiplayer :
Yes, I'm sure this sort of experience helps a lot for AW, mostly because it forces one to take down childish mental barriers.

 

[Rusten]

^

Spoiler :

Yeah -- machinery+guilds. I was considering just going with vassalage for now and some x-bows (archery unit!) to supplement my mounted units. Bureaucracy isn't going to do too much in this type of game I think, but maybe it's a mistake. I'll have to think about it. I'm always so unimpressed with macemen, but maybe I should change my tech plans. You need machinery as well before you can make macemen though.

Maintenance will explode soon as Arabian cities go out of revolt, but I should be able to get to CoL without much problems. Probably feud -> mathematics -> currency build wealth -> CoL.

1200 Dom/Conquest is very optimistic!
I can't wait to launch golden ages with this soon-to-be huge empire.

edit: maybe alpha instead of maths as I could use spies for scouting.

 

[dutchfire]

@BiC, Rusten:

Spoiler :

Aren't knights a lot better than macemen for pillaging, with their higher strength and speed? Every AI that loses his iron(+ivory) does not have a serious counter for knights anymore.

 

[rah]

And sometimes the best laid plans...........
Pillage their only iron and expecting a cake walk only to discover that they have traded for it with another civ.

 

[yyeah]

@ Rusten

Spoiler :

Nice game. I like it.
Tbh i didnt even though about waring early i was thinking more about economy ... but yea one doesnt need eco if one can destroy everybody
Knights are like natural way to go here from my point of view, a lot better then x-bows, maces trabes. Probably one can find ai without Feudalism .
But without Curency\CS this kind of rush can end up faster then it start especially without Buffy.
But it just a though.
What is imoprtand with CS here is that it adds not only 50% but allso 50% adding Forge to Cap and bulid wealth can help a lot if one wants to avoid probably huge maintence problem while Knight rushing.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BiC, Rusten:

Spoiler :

Aren't knights a lot better than macemen for pillaging, with their higher strength and speed? Every AI that loses his iron(+ivory) does not have a serious counter for knights anymore.

@ Dutchfire :

Spoiler :

Yes, Knights are a lot better than Macemen to fight in the field.
Also, with Cyrus traits, they can be easily and heavily promoted with little effort.
I'm not sure what use Rusten made of his GGs but I suspect at least a couple of them were settled, so he can pump 5xp Horse Archers.

Otoh, Maces tend to fare better when attacking cities, assuming there are no Crossbows defending. A city raider 3 Mace is a dreadful unit, much more capable than a combat 3 knight... even though its use is reduced to attacking cities.

-->
Knights allow better stack splitting, cover more territory and are better overall defensive units : they can clear stacks. Clearing stacks is very useful when going on the offence, too, because it means the AIs won't have tremendous numbers of city defenders.
Macemen require larger stacks to be effective, a more compact army that doesn't cover territory. As such, they make a poor job on defence and should leave that task to Longbows. Maces follow the "Stack of Doom" logic : a large enough stack won't suffer any counter-attacks and it can go from city to city. Blend in 8-10 maces, 8-15 siege units, a couple Longbows, a couple Crossbows and a couple 2-move units : there you have a start to a SoD.

--> Overall, investing in a SoD would require more units than investing in a cavalry.
This is because :
a) the cavalry has a double use for defence as well as for offence ;
b) the SoD needs to be big and has little use for defence.

On the positive side, the SoD is more durable and suffers less casualties than the mounted force when attacking cities :
a) because of siege ;
b) because of the city raider promotions (huge bonuses).

It's possible that going full mounted is the better military choice, here, and I overvalue a mixed stack, being influenced by regular, non-AW games. I do think that, if one can get an active SoD, then the game becomes an easy cruise. But then again (going circles), a SoD would require a higher initial investment than a mounted force. Mounted is cheaper to get going.
I'd be drawn to 1-movers but Rusten has already shown a great use of Horse Archers, so... I'll leave the conclusion open.


There could be another consideration in the Macemen vs Knights choice and that has to do with the tech path.
Going Currency --> CoL --> Civil Service --> Machinery will net more overall commerce than
Going Monarchy --> Feudalism --> Machinery --> Guilds.

It isn't trivial to unlock extra trade routes and Bureaucracy.
Bureaucracy, especially with an Academy, results in a steep increase of the tech rate.
It's conspicuous that the Guilds beeline offers little economic benefits.
So, sure, Guilds may unlock a better military unit but, if playing for the longer game, then the extra commerce from the Civil Service path may pay off better.

Feud + Machinery + Guilds is so expensive (3600 beakers) that, even if going for Knights, it may be better to get Civil Service first and play a defensive game in the meantime.
Rusten doesn't necessarily need to rush the Knights tech : he can still take out Peter AND developping his own economic situation (in the backyard) comes with benefits of its own.
Same for being first to Longbows... If defence can be guaranteed with Archers and Horse archers, then prioritizing the better economic path may pay off better in the long run.

Just my 2c. I'm sure Rusten will figure it out better than I would.
Also, he surely has some margin for error from where he stands.

Now on to fix my BULL mod. Grrr ! I hate doing that !

 

[dutchfire]

Pillage money?

Spoiler :

I'm not sure I would have kept Damascus, looks like it will be a drain on your economy for a long. I think taking cities here only really makes sense if you can knock out the entire civ quickly and put the cities to use.

 

[Rusten]

BiC

Spoiler :

Yeah, this is why I didn't prioritise civil service that much. All that unit maintenance means a very low science slider which makes the academy much less useful. You can't make a super-city here with 100% science.
Markets are better value than libraries!

Having a few longbows is better value than a mixed stack of several archers and metal units.

Horse archers are also better against unit maintenance as you need a smaller stack. And you can run around razing cities for money. It makes it easier to go on the offensive. You can never attack with spears for instance as you'd face axes. And your swords face enemy axes. With enough HAs you can power through the stacks as there's usually not more than 1-2 spears and you have positive % against them anyway with enough promotions.

Still, it's nice to see different paths play out. Looks like you're in it still. Market+bureaucracy in Cahokia will be massive for you.

On another note: I never realised how good the soundtrack for this game is. I always played with my own music in the past, but on this new install it was automatically on and it really adds to the experience.

 

[MegaLurker]

Looking good BiC. I still worry about those flat-land blocker cities, but I'm pulling for you. I've got nothing to teach you about the game but I'm almost certain you're going to need Longbows within the next ~25 turns to hold onto your cities. Spoilers from my 2nd playthrough, which has since been abandoned....

Spoiler :

You were absolutely right about me needing more cities and the cost of the GW/Mids. The lessons I've gathered from the second attempt:

-our cities are safe from any real attacks until ~turn 100 or a bit later, which means there is a larger window of opportunity for settling than I thought. And also means that you want those cities out quickly, BiC style. Lack of cities to whip out of really hurt me, and it took far too long to get out a stack once Construction was in.

-no need to rush the 'Mids, definitely want to be safe for the GW, though. In my first play-through the GW went before 2000BC, which surprised me. But I guess it's possible an AI started building them before we met and auto-declared, which is much less likely for the 'Mids? I still maintain that both wonders are worth it, but if I had to choose one it would be the GW.

-luck has a big impact. I had a sequence in which a GG-super defender died early at extremely low odds, forcing me to re-load after a while because it screwed me over so badly. On my third play-through AI tech choice also made a huge difference compared to my second, because of pottery. In my third attempt neither of the choke targets have pottery at a time when I was already getting 10-20 pillage gold PER TURN because of cottages during my second attempt.

-as a continuation of the first point, I severely misjudged the difficulty curve of AI stacks. It takes quite a long time to get to a dangerous point, but from there it progresses very fast. Early ADs you get double digit metal stacks, which may kill a couple defenders at a time but should be repelled. But it only takes 10-20 turns after that for catapult stacks to appear, at which point you are completely ed if you don't have LBs to compensate. And even then if you LBs are not promoted fully down the Drill line I don't know how long they'd last. Resist the temptation to go down the City Defender line first. The timing will of course depend on luck a little bit regarding how quickly AIs go for construction.

I've gone to about 400BC on my third attempt with revised strategy, I think I'm in a very strong position but I won't have a detailed updated until I have time, maybe tomorrow. Or late tonight. I may or may not have come to the same conclusions on my own, but I have to give credit to Rusten. I looked at his opening before I tweaked my own.

I do want to share a funny screenshot re: the shortcomings of the Civ IV AI. From my second attempt:

Of course the settler was escorted by archers, but from this screenshot you'd be tempted to think the settler was escorted by workers instead

Don't read that unless you want a bunch of advanced knowledge of when to expect certain things from the AI on these settings.

 

[Rusten]

MegaLurker

Spoiler :

Nice woody 3 DW. Poor Peter, no way to get rid of that thing.

The drill promotion is indeed crucial as you mentioned. I guess it wasn't mentioned yet in this thread.

When you're at a severe advantage in combat drill increases in value as you can often win the battle before taking damage. Extremely cost-efficient.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm settling all of my GGs. Seems the way to go with CHM. Besides, there's already the totem pole. A regular unit isn't that far off a GG unit.

 

[Rusten]

~1000 AD

Spoiler :

Think the game is going to be won. The AIs have no answer for my drill 4 longbows at the moment and I'm keeping up in tech. Meanwhile my HAs destroyed poor Peter (pillaged metal).

Starting cities are producing longbows with totem pole while Mecca is making mounted units with several settled GGs. Thanks to this I should be able to clear out the map soon and not just sit with longbows.
The other Arab cities have mainly been producing wealth and Medina is collecting GPP.

Very late here now so off to bed. I'll try to add some pics and report more thoroughly tomorrow.

 

[Rusten]

From 225 BC to 1500 AD: Warning -- a lot of screenshots (but inside separate spoilers).

Spoiler :

I decided to research mathematics-currency-CoL before feudalism. Aquiring the new cities would mean a fair bit of maintenance so getting the economic techs with all the pillage gold made sense.
Furthermore, longbows would be overkill at this stage. All that's needed are DWs (many), archers (few) and HAs (many). The DWs wreck the incoming metal stacks.

Not settling around my capital meant that some barbarian cities popped up. I razed this as I didn't want to deal with defending it. The maintenance would be high as well.

Spoiler :

Some HA shenanigans (again razed).

Spoiler :

Poverty point indeed. This poor city has been ruthlessly whipped all game.

Spoiler :

All the AIs attacked Cahokia from SW, so I was able to keep some cottages up. Some of the tiles were vacated though, unfortunately. However, if the situation/AI script was to change my backup plan was to create my bureau capital in the city to the SE which had just as much commerce as it was running cottages all game. As it turned out there was no need.

Spoiler :

I didn't clear out Peter until 960 AD (one city left). Maybe this could've been done quicker if I had made less longbows and more HAs. I'm at 1500 AD and most of my longbows have never seen combat.

Spoiler :

I know I have a lot of HAs Shaka, but attacking Cahokia with your spears is not the way to go.

Spoiler :

Mecca will be my most important city. It will churn out 1 mounted unit per turn later on with C5 right out of the gate (and if I'm feeling frisky C3+commando and blitz).

Spoiler :

It's 1060 AD and maintenance is not so troublesome so I settle another city (note the date). The river will be great with my forthcoming golden ages. [WB on the way and forests to be chopped for granary. Always be ready with workers when you settle new cities.]

Spoiler :

I have a fair amount of longbows on my southern front as well.

Spoiler :

The forbidden palace was made in Aachen once my fronts were secure. Again, could've been sooner but I overestimated the dangers and made units there first.

Spoiler :

Developed Mecca:

Spoiler :

Current civics. Slavery is in the past and workshops are being made all over the empire. I also went into vassalage as many cities are making units. Mercantilism is also a big civic here. Banking is a very crucial economic tech.

Spoiler :

Medina starts on a GM (or GA) for my second golden age.

Spoiler :

1320 AD I take out a chinese border city (razed just in case).

Spoiler :

1350 AD: The one longbow casualty (8%).

Spoiler :

I start my 2nd GA in the mid 1300s. Most of my cities have reached their caps so no reason to wait -- I just need cuirassiers->cavalry to finish the game off.

The power of promotions (99%):

Spoiler :

The captured HRE cities are all making military with one noteworthy exception.

Spoiler :

Remember the founding date of Mesa Verde? Not many years have passed and already it's come so far (making CR3 maces):

Spoiler :

Did anyone else settle this city? It's been a huge boost for my empire just producing wealth for most of the game. Not every city needs a food resource, there are exceptions to everything.

Spoiler :

I never got the granary as I expected to stop the growth at size 4. Growing to 7 for the second gold mine is an option but too late now. You also want a granary then.

In the 1400s I felt comfortable enough to start taking some cities.

Spoiler :

I also have a 1-mover with siege in the works from the south.

Spoiler :

A look at the power throughout the game (GK has consistantly been toppping the chart). At this point I am the sole leader in most demographics with huge production and tech parity. They have no way to fight my promotions though and soon I'll get cuirassiers.

Spoiler :

Huayna's score is inflated through wonders and his GNP through culture. The game is a breeze from here considering my promotions and production.

 

[sampsa]

Thanks Rusten, always enjoyable to read a good report with lots of screenshots. Makes me want to try AW!

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks for a very interesting writeup, Rusten Good to hear about your thinking and progress, and it certainly looks like you have the game by the balls now.

Had a good chuckle at the AI attacking with longbows and even archers

 

[Rusten]

Continued

Spoiler :

The end of domination victories are not very interesting, but I had spent so much time on this game that I felt I had to finish. Huayna, the only person who could tech up to anything threatening, completely shut off his research to pursue culture which made it even easier.

Just a normal cuirassier war, you know how it goes.

I remembered that this is Terra and thus I needed more land, so I settled a city in the new world and culture bombed it.

Domination is completed 1760 AD. It took me 22 hours, which has to be the most time I've ever spent on a SP game.

All in all a very fun and interesting game. I may need to return to AW in the near future.

 

[Izuul]

This was a great Immortal AW game if anyone that wasn't around back then for it wants to give it a go. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=483961&highlight=continent

That was my first attempt at AW, and one that i ultimately failed, but it was still a lot of fun and a good learning experience. HOF Snaaty showed up and gave everyone a nice tutorial on how to play AW.

 

[Rusten]

Another Immortal AW map ?
If you generate it yourself, please, share ! Or ask if you don't want to go through the process !

If you host it then the players will come.

 

[dutchfire]

I would be interested in an AW game. If it's possible to post the world builder file, that would be nice, since I'm sure some of us mere mortals would be more comfortable playing this at emperor.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Can do that,

Any more requests ? Or am I left at the mercy of my own will ?